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On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
and they'll be happy with killing him in his sleep? Are they soldiers or butchers? Are we trying to be honourable or win at all costs?

We were on the defence here, and we've survived. What if that was they come back in numbers (remember the scouts haven't returned yet) and we've decided to murder our ace card? That's a shorter and more direct route to failure than the convoluted method you list above.

They will not be happy, some of them will be enraged. But he will be dead, and his followers once the gem is destroyed will be weak. So, will they stir up trouble? Yes. Will they take control of the tribe and make us into a fanatic, people-burning theocracy? No, because they won't have thee power to.

with what proof? You're basing it all on only one possibility.
If there was a option to remove the gem from the wielder and then wait for a) him to wake up and/or b) the scouts to return I'd pick it, but there isn't, and A is the closest that keeps all our options open.

Once again, we have an evil, cartoonish, extremely powerful and very devious fellow here. He miscalculated and became vulnerable. Notice that he most likely did not plan going into a coma, he was speaking of pursuing before losing consciousness. He will not make this mistake again. He will be enraged, he will work behind our backs and conquer us

Why would he EVER repent, or become less fanatic? We insulted his fire spirit! We took away his connection to the gods. We discussed whether to kill or not! We humiliated him. Next time he won't come openly, he will come in the night, to murder the ones to opposed him, and then he will be the leader, and make sure no other possible revolt against him happens

Do we lose some military might by killing him? Yes, indeed we do, but we keep our freedom to choose every path in the future. We won't have many options to choose you know, once we're ruled by some Palpatine-like guy in a fanatic environment.

I stand by my words, this is the LAST chance to get rid of the guy we have.
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,951
When he becomes a problem again he will be the immortal fire emperor and it will be too late to do anything about it
Maybe, maybe not. If he is so powerful then why would he bother with secrecy in training apprentices in the first place? Why not just defy the council straight away instead of pretending to cooperate?
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
A

Not exactly an immortal fire emperor if he drops to the ground after every battle. He will soon have apprentices learning in the ways of fire to challenge him - especially if we sequester the gem. In fact, the best possibility is that we sequester the gem, lead the wielder on a little bit and put him into a position of danger to reclaim his authority and reputation, he gets killed or he makes mistakes, then we get to drag him through the mud and kill him. End result: we still have the gem in collective possession, and we have some knowledge of fire that is shared across the tribe, so that we have the weapon but we don't have the megalomaniac.

Whereas, as esquilax points out, killing him is just a rash decision and will most certainly create huge fractures in the tribe, even before the scouts return.
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
When he becomes a problem again he will be the immortal fire emperor and it will be too late to do anything about it
Maybe, maybe not. If he is so powerful then why would he bother with secrecy in training apprentices in the first place? Why not just defy the council straight away instead of pretending to cooperate?

Because he is devious. Why conquer by force when he can slowly subvert the tribe and become an hero in the people's eyes? Besides, he has been getting stronger. He miscalculated this time and fainted because it was the first time he did so much. He's still exploring his powers and he was biding his time.

And he WILL be a hero in the people's eyes. With choosing A we make him the victimized hero, who gets mistreated again and again by throwing him in dangerous and humiliating situations. And being powerful, he WILL survive them, and gain more and more honor and respect for being such a selfless hero who keeps fighting for the tribe even when mistreated. And as he gains more and more support, people will flock to him.

Hell he may even not need any assassination, there will simply be a revolt with him crowned as a leader instead of the incompetent council who ordered such a fine, upstanding hero be humiliated and mistreated for so long.

We have the perfect case here for the would be fanatical tyrant put into power by the foolish, misguided masses who do not realize what he's truly like. This is a PERFECT case of the rise to power of an evil overlord.

Seriously, this is politic guys, you do not keep around a dangerous enemy and keep giving him chances to become the victimized, misunderstood hero again and again. If you do so, you're asking for it.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,017
Getting rid of him would be a suicide, both for the consequences inside our tribe and because will leave us almost powerless against dangerous enemies.
If is not possible to have him following the orders of the council make him supreme leader.
 

Jick Magger

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
5,667
Location
New Zealand
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria
Really, we're in a situation where we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
- The wielder will be enraged, and start working even more actively that before to subvert and conquer us
- The fanatics will be enraged, and start studying the fire magic from the wielder even more intensively. Let's say, it's 20 people
- The soldiers will be angry, because they will see our war hero insulted and dragged in the mud. No, they will not like it. He saved their lives. They saw him fight. Some will become fire fanatics. Some may ALREADY have become fire fanatics after seeing the wielder. The others will simply not try to get in the way once he finally revolts and goes for domination in the tribe
- The women of the soldiers will not be happy. The wielder saved their men lives.
- The council will be shamed for having treated the wielder like this
- Once the wielder rebels, none will stand in his way. His fanatics will fight for him. The soldiers will not fight against him. Our council and all the water shamans will die. And soon we will have our nice fire emperor, who being immortal will rule us for... thousands of years?

All of those are just as, if not even more likely to happen if we try to kill him (key word here being 'try', you ought to pray to the fucking bear spirits that you succeed in killing him, because he won't be able to save you if you fail). Except replace the fire emperor part with "totalitarian church who rule with an iron fist based upon their interpretation of the wielder's teachings". Really, killing him's probably the nicest thing you can do for him behind just resigning the council's authority to the fire wielders without a fight.

Your entire reasoning behind killing him is that in doing so, all of our problems will instantly vanish save a few people being a little bit cross. Sorry, but it isn't that simple anymore. It COULD of been that simple awhile back when he first came to us, but since then he has become considered a valued and respected member of the tribe. Hell, even some of the water tribesmen like him. He is ruthless, for sure, but his ruthlessness has brought results. You're just jumping on what you believe to be your last chance to get rid of him while ignoring or severely understating the consequences.

We kill him and we'll have half the tribe (who've been following this religion since we were still making our trek to the mountain over a century ago) in riot, a collection of secret apprentices whose number we don't know spreading dissent, those who don't follow the fire religion (including what's left of our military) questioning the wisdom and competence of the council, and a tribe of very strong and very pissed off beastmen on our doorstep who'd be pleased to learn the linchpin of our military is dead and we're too busy fighting amongst one another to deal with them.

I can understand you guys wanting to get rid of him. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand. But now simply isn't the time or place to be doing it, and the chances of us killing him without serious backlash have long-since come and gone. From here on out, if you want to oust him then you're gonna have to get more creative than 'bash his head in with a rock in broad daylight and hope nobody complains'.

EDIT: Speaking of the bears, did we lose any of them in the battle, Curufinwe? It's nice to see that I was wrong and that they weren't a complete waste of time. Though whether or not they'll be able to keep up their usefulness remains to be seen.
 

Zwist

Learned
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
236
You are of course all aware that option A includes:
his gem sequestered

Now, how do you think he is going to react?
I mean hypothetical speaking, if this is not a mere stone but a mindcontrolling entity he reveres as his god?

Also removing him from the council will just remove the last shred of control we have over him.

I you really want to cuddle, vote B.
 

newcomer

Learned
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
919
Really, we're in a situation where we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

At the very least, option A was suggested by a fire keeper, so most likely it will result in mixed opinion; the tribesmen opinion will be split to either sympathetic to the wielder's deeds or the firm belief that law must be enacted to everyone. However for C, I can only see the tribe going to see him as a martyr and overthrow the elder council.

I think if we go with A we need a mechanism on how the wielder can repent & regain his honor and position in the council, considering that he is nevertheless a hero. I believe this will reduce negative opinion from the tribe
 

Monty

Arcane
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
1,582
Location
Grognardia
Tough decision but have been swayed by the arguments of Esquilax, Tigranes, Jick_Magger et al... so amending my vote above to A.
 

TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
From here on out, if you want to oust him then you're gonna have to get more creative than 'bash his head in with a rock in broad daylight and hope nobody complains'.

It doesn't have to be broad daylight or chopping his head off. He could simply "vanish" in the middle of the night and later be found drowned in the lake. Or found dead in the camp water in his mouth. Then we would have to make sure that tribesman who finds him come to conclusion (and keeps telling others) that water spirits were angry with him.

Aftermath is that there is one Wielder less, fire worshipping takes a little hit while water takes boost. Sure we would lose valuable combat asset but so what? If the barbarians are weak, we don't need him, and if they are still strong the Wielder can't change the fact that we are screwed if we stay here.

So please vote C.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
It doesn't have to be broad daylight or chopping his head off. He could simply "vanish" in the middle of the night and later be found drowned in the lake. Or found dead in the camp water in his mouth. Then we would have to make sure that tribesman who finds him come to conclusion (and keeps telling others) that water spirits were angry with him.

Aftermath is that there is one Wielder less, fire worshipping takes a little hit while water takes boost. Sure we would lose valuable combat asset but so what? If the barbarians are weak, we don't need him, and if they are still strong the Wielder can't change the fact that we are screwed if we stay here.

You're making this out to be a lot simpler than it's probably going to be. It's not about losing a valuable combat asset, it's about maintaining tribal unity by acting in accordance with the laws that govern us. I don't really give a fuck about his value in combat - if we could discard him right now with minimal political fallout, I would be all for it. But the reality is that we can't. What I am concerned about is that if our council murders this man while he's vulnerable (and make no mistake, everyone's going to know it's murder, this isn't the sort of shit you can easily sweep under the rug) then they're not going to have any faith in the people that lead their tribe. If great warriors are discarded and killed as soon as they become burdensome to those in power, then maybe those in power aren't worth listening to.

However, if we acknowledge the fact that he's still one of us, then that means that we punish him as we would any man. Our people's custom for murder/treason is disgrace, not death. The very act of killing him makes him special because the punishment we give him is special. Punish him as we would any normal man, and he becomes a man. Punish him as we would a prophet and he becomes the messiah. Disgracing him will do more to hurt his status than killing him will.

I'm not saying it's an easy decision, in fact both choices have their pros and cons. The Wielder will certainly make an attempt to go after his gem again right after this and he might organize some of his people to stage a desperate coup as well. But it'll be much harder for them to do that because we'll have a lot of people on our side too. Most will support disgracing him for attempting treason, very few will support outright killing him after our first great battle and victory. The fact of the matter is, I'd much rather deal with a neutered and gemless Wielder of Fire than a possible civil war between moderates and fanatics, especially with the beastmen at our doorstep.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Uh, yeah. Everyone's going to know what happened if he ends up dead now. This isn't Shakespearean court intrigue, this is a freaking stone age tribe of a few hundred. It's going to be preeeeetty clear.
 

TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
How is everyone going to know the council is behind it? We could just ask someone individual take the blame for murder. There must be a few patriots among water worshippers who would gladly do it. Fire keepers would probably be outraged but I highly doubt that they would resort to murder themselves to get revenge.

Giving the Wielder a slap in the face is not going to make the problem go away. It just makes it worse.
 

Curufinwe

Learned
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
271
Location
Italy
14 for A, only 1 for B, 5 for C. Initially it seemed the Wielder's fate would be sealed, but some counter-arguing from Esquilax brought tons of votes for A, even swaying some who initially voted for C. Very well.

The sleeping form of the Wielder of Fire was bound after orders were received from the council, tied on a zebra's back and carried back to camp, along with his secret trainee. Nobody dared touch his gem, secreted into his furs, that responsibility would fall on the elders.

A great funereal pyre was lit with the help of his two apprentices, honoring the death of our warriors. As for the beastmen... their corpses were left to rot where they fell.
The militia commander picked up the enemy leader's axes, to be brought back and examined further. They were made of a grey substance, smooth and cold to the touch, very different from the stones we knew. Its edges were deadly sharp, even sharper than our obsidian axes. Nobody knew what to make of it.

When the party arrived, the Wielder and his apprentices were brought in front of the council. One of the elders approached his sleeping form, rummaged into his furs and picked up the gem. He immediately brought back his hand with a yelp. He turned to the others and said 'The red stone... it is way too hot. Bring some furs, so that I may pick it up without burning my hands.'

Furst were brought, the gem was wrapped in them and carried away, to be secreted.

A few minutes later, the Wielder of Fire moaned and opened his eyes. His gaze still unfocused, he tried to move his arms, then found out they were tied with animal sinew. He fully resumed consciousness, looked around himself and started thrashing around, saying: 'What is this? Why am I bound like an animal brought to slaughter? Let me go! Let me go now!'

The eldest rose his arms, yelling: 'Silence!'. The Wielder narrowed his eyes, but stopped moving. Quiet restored, the eldest continued: 'You are brought here to trial in front of the council. You have disobeyed our laws, secretly training men in the use of your powers. You have flaunted your despise of our authority, you have made a joke of the trust we bestowed upon you. For this, you have been judged. You will be stripped of your authority, put to work where most useful for the tribe and your gem has been sequestered. Thus the council speaks, thus it will be.'

The Wielder widened his eyes, then started chuckling darkly: 'You dare judge me? You!?'
He suddenly screamed: 'You have no right to judge me! You are as nothing in front of the power of fire! Let me go, let me go now!' and started thrashing savagely again on the ground, small flames starting to form on his hands.

The eldest furrowed his brow and made a gesture to a warrior. The man wielded a club in his hand and approached the Wielder but, before he got there, the bald man stopped moving again, his flames disappearing.

He then spoke, his voice calm: 'I apologize. My mind was clouded by the battle, but it is clearer now. You are of course right. I shouldn't have done what I did. Your punishment is proper, I will pay for my mistakes.'
He stood up and calmly let the warriors escort him away. His first detail, it was decided, would be clearing animal dung from the sheep fences. It would teach him humility.


A few days later, three of the five scouts we sent after the fleeing beastmen returned. They said the fugitives had gone into the forest, and kept pressing on. The scouts followed them in but, after a day or so, three of them decided to turn back. They said the deeper they went, the stranger the forest grew. Trees were getting darker, larger, but most of all there was an all-encompassing silence. No birds could be heard, no wildlife was spotted and... perhaps worse... a growing feeling of being watched.
The three said the other two disagreed and decided to keep going: their mission was still unfulfilled.

Another week passed without news, then.... in the dead of night... another scout returned.
He was immediately brought in front of the council to give his report.

The man was clearly scared and it took the gentle goading of the elders to make him speak.
He started: 'After the other three went back, me and my friend kept going forward, deeper and deeper into the forest. Three more days went by uneventfully, the beastmen tracks still easy to follow in their hurry to escape. As the others surely told you, this forest is... not right. The silence wasn't ever interrupted by anything except our footsteps and we kept turning around, the feeling of unseen eyes on our backs.'

He continued: 'Finally, just before dawn the fourth day, we reached a clearing, shrouded in fog. We entered it, reached its middle, then stopped... in all directions dark, hulking shadows were appearing, utterly silent. My friend panicked and tried to bolt the way we came... he was engulfed by the fog. A few seconds later, I heard a scream of pain. An object came hurtling out of the fog to land at my feet... it was his head, ripped from his shoulders.'
The scout started sobbing softly: 'I will never forget the look of horror on his face...'
The elders said some soothing words to him and he continued: 'The shadows in front of me drew nearer, until I could see them clearly – he took a deep breath – They were not human... they stood on two legs like us, but that's where the similarity ended. Their faces had muzzles... like the wolves we met back on the mountain, but black. Their arms were so muscular one of them was wider than my legs. I almost fainted at the sight, but somehow kept staying up, pointing my spear at the approaching monsters. They stopped just a few steps from me. Then they parted, a smaller shadow stepping from behind them and coming towards me.'

He kept speaking: 'It was the oldest man I've ever seen... wizened, his back so curved he walked almost bent in two. He kept his weight on a great branch. The old man approached, looked at the head of my friend – the scouts sobbed again, then regained control – and gave a great sigh. He then said:
'Poor man... he shouldn't have run. This needn't have happened.'
He straightened slightly and kept talking: 'So... here we are. Do not be afraid, you will not be harmed. I want you to bring a message back to your chief. Tell him that what happened a few days back was a mistake. A lesser chief acted without orders. I hear he paid the price of it, so that's settled. I can see your tribe is different from the ones who unfortunately fell when I was younger. You are stronger, you wield strange powers. For those reasons, you will not be bothered again. But, remember this if you remember anything of this encounter, trespassing into the forest will not be tolerated. It is our home, our domain. We give you the lake and its shores to do as you will. But you shall not enter our forest. As a boon of goodwill, I will tell you this: fire is the key to the weapons wielded by the lesser chief you killed.'
The old man turned back and started limping back to his monsters: 'Go back now. You shall not be bothered by any of us. Go back and bring my message.' And he disappeared into the mists. The monsters soon vanished as well, leaving me with the head of my friend, staring accusingly up at me.'

The scout fell silent, then spoke a final time: 'I am so tired... can I go rest?' The council took pity and allowed him to go.

A debate started.
A. One of the keepers of fire, the same that wanted the Wielder chastised but left alone, said: 'Those monsters are clearly scared of our domain of fire. Strike while they're weakened. Mount an expedition, burn them out of their forest and kill them all!'
B. Our militia commander shook his head and sneered: 'You fool. We are in no condition to fight another battle. We lost too many, we are almost as weakened as they are. Furthermore, we have no idea of their real strength. We have to trust the old man's words, stay here and grow stronger again. They said the lake and its shores are ours to do as we will, so we can expand our influence. I'm sure there are other tribes that can be swayed to join us and we need to take care of our weapon shortages. Let's stay put for now.'

Only two choices today, I couldn't think of a middle ground between attacking or not, sorry. Get voting!
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
B.

This one is so, so obvious, it should be a landslide. Sure, these 'wolf-men' may be using trickery and words to boast of their strength, but even if we consider what is given, (1) half our warriors are dead; (2) the wielder's powers have declined; (3) the forest is, most certainly, confusing and foggy, if not downright dangerous in its own right. These factors alone should mean that we need to rebuild our strength, and use this great victory as an opportunity to expand our dominion over the lake / shore region. We have seen nothing in the forests that should prove so tempting for us. It is one thing if we found the women, children and treasures of the barbarians, but going in like this is sure to be a Black Forest situation.

Perhaps, in time, we shall learn more from the gem and have the power to slowly burn the forest down, or at least burn paths through it. Right now, there is no point - and surely we must not expose ourselves to positions of danger or fear, so that we may maintain a good grip on the Wielder.
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
B

I don't see how we could vote something else. We are weakened, we don't know who these people are, they seem to have some strange powers or some unnatural allies. Besides, attacking them into their territory is not a smart thing...
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
B.

The Wielder widened his eyes, then started chuckling darkly: 'You dare judge me? You!?'

His first detail, it was decided, would be clearing animal dung from the sheep fences. It would teach him humility.

Anyone see a problem here?

I do. A big one. But let's close this conversation until it comes back to bite us in the ass. :P
 

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