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On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

Jick Magger

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The red eyes?
That's just a colour motif that's clearly alluding to his influence over fire. Like how blue is associated with water. Doesn't necessarily mean he's evil at all. It wouldn't make an awful lot of sense for him to teach people who aren't on his side, wouldn't it? And how else is he gonna convince people he's the genuine article without some pyrotechnics? Hope they just take his word for it?
 

Vernydar

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The red eyes?
That's just a colour motif that's clearly alluding to his influence over fire. Like how blue is associated with water. Doesn't necessarily mean he's evil at all. It wouldn't make an awful lot of sense for him to teach people who aren't on his side, wouldn't it? And how else is he gonna convince people he's the genuine article without some pyrotechnics? Hope they take his word for it?

My point is that he's a walking stereotype. There's nothing else that could be put in his description to make him more cartoonish evil considering the age. We have not invented yet Dark Mantles, Cowls and the like. He's the archetype of what a deranged evil guy would be in this time.
 

Jick Magger

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My point is that he's a walking stereotype. There's nothing else that could be put in his description to make him more cartoonish evil considering the age. We have not invented yet Dark Mantles, Cowls and the like. He's the archetype of what a deranged evil guy would be in this time.
Didn't your mother ever tell you not to judge a book by its cover? So far he's done absolutely nothing to support your claim that he's evil beyond having the audacity to lose his hair after being caught in a volcano eruption.
 

Tigranes

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The point here is that you're all being extremely optimistic and imagining the best possible outcomes, or considering it a gamble. I think most of you are not weighting the risks and rewards well enough.

I disagree. I think you are being too pessimistic and overthinking all the possible ways things could go wrong. Of course things could go wrong, it's a gamble. But it's not a gamble where you can clearly show any of the disastrous outcomes are any likelier than various forms of success. I agree expecting to find a Water Wielder anytime soon is hopeful at best, but you seem to be thinking about all these ways in which things could go wrong, and assuming the worst about the Wielder although we know very little. Why do you think he will be an evil power-driven fanatic who is bent on converting or killing everyone then leading them on a destructive rampage?

I don't think any of the scenarios you raise are any more or any less likely than their more optimistic versions. So in that situation, where we don't have enough experience, I say we go for it, in a moderate way (E3, F3) instead of freaking out over what so far is nothing.
 

newcomer

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I disagree. I think you are being too pessimistic and overthinking all the possible ways things could go wrong.

I agree with this. However, I think his point is very reasonable since we're talking about lives. Normally you wouldn't take gamble on anything that might harm human lives, even if you only have extremely small chance to lose the gamble.

But then, option A-C also have its flaws: what if we die trying to kill him? what if this person is not actually a person? what if he turns into some sort of monster / spiritual being when we try to kill him? At the end, I think that this update itself is a gamble that we have no choice but to take...

For me, I'd rather attempt to subdue him diplomatically rather than forcefully. That guy seems strong enough to take us all anyway...

Vernydar
Btw, my idea on antipope is not about finding another water spirit, it is to attempt defection of one of the fire disciple under this maniac, gradually give the defected guy more power & subsequently overthrow this maniac
 

Kipeci

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What's wrong with fanaticism, exactly?

Some people are a little devoted to the fire spirits. That's understandable, given that this guy who used to be a mere flame keeper has now acquired mastery over the flames! Better yet, he's offering to teach this. What's the problem for the overwhelming majority of us worshipping the fire spirits? Why would it make any sense for these flame worshippers to immediately attempt to kill him? They have no reason to do this, and we might not even actually kill him. Our first reaction upon meeting a superpowered guy from our stock offering to conquer the wimptastic tribes surrounding us should not be to shank him in the face, and if it is he deserves to burn us to a crisp and hook up with some other flame worshippers.

As for the matters of intolerance, what's keeping anyone else from converting? Those water worshippers obviously haven't been helped out by their water spirits, while this flame guy is clearly enjoying a lot of benefits from his worship that would be incredibly useful against surrounding tribes... and he can even teach them to others! Besides, I don't see why everyone's assuming he'd kill everyone anyway. All he said was 'conquest', and one so pious as him is almost certainly aware of the fact that dead people can't worship the fire spirit.

This is also just about the best time to be fanatics establishing ourselves as a local power, because there isn't likely to be a large reaction from any sort of organized state (people suggesting that some sort of hero would come in to defeat us should recall that when the remnant water people came to us complaining of barbarian penises lodged firmly in up to their nephrons, we sent no heroic force and merely freaked out about the possibilities of being invaded ourselves for the next few centuries) and that we really need to start expanding our people for our own security.
 

Kz3r0

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Guys, there are only two options, or we dispose of him in a unconspicuous manner or we follow him, he's practically a demigod, how do you think to manage him, his sole presence undermines any other authority.
 

AstralStorm

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We do not know what we're toying with, but I suspect it might be reasonable to not kill this guy, but test him instead. If he's useful, cautiously keep him, like the bears.
I'm not sure which option that'd be, but probably E2.

Also: metagaming, tsk tsk. Nobody (except probably said fanatic) heard the voices.
Not to mention we don't have any proof he's charismatic or powerful yet.
--
Kz3r0: Nec Hercules contra plures. Don't give him a group yet.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
This is going to be really funny when it turns out that the guy can't use his powers when he's wet.
 

Kz3r0

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All in all I think that the only real option is to devise a test to determine his strength, we can't afford to follow a fanatic which powers even if magical amount only to circus tricks, beware tho, if his powers are more than that, of the meteor strike variety for example, we don't have any other choice that go fanatical ourselves.
 

newcomer

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All in all I think that the only real option is to devise a test to determine his strength, we can't afford to follow a fanatic which powers even if magical amount only to circus tricks, beware tho, if his powers are more than that, of the meteor strike variety for example, we don't have any other choice that go fanatical ourselves.

Close to us is an eerie forest, the one which we suspect the barbarians were hiding in. Let us use this forest to test him :)
 

Kz3r0

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All in all I think that the only real option is to devise a test to determine his strength, we can't afford to follow a fanatic which powers even if magical amount only to circus tricks, beware tho, if his powers are more than that, of the meteor strike variety for example, we don't have any other choice that go fanatical ourselves.

Close to us is an eerie forest, the one which we suspect the barbarians were hiding in. Let us use this forest to test him :)
Good Idea, seconded.
 
Joined
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By the way, why would a horde of murderous beastmen be hiding?
Either there are no barbarians in the forest and some people here are jumping to crazy conclusions off the deep end (as usual)... or barbarians really aren't what we should be worried about (dun-dun-dunnnn!).

Psst, if you're thinking "dragon" then fire probably won't tickle it much.
 

TOME

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A. Should the gem corrupt the one studying it --> C. If the gem doens't break -->B.

But since the DEF options is going to win, we should shackle him to play politics on council. I don't think that it is going to take him long to outwit our elders and place himself as überruler of our tribe but playing time is the best we can do at the moment (beside killing him).
 

Zwist

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D3

No really, the tribe got one defining feature, lets play it out.
F3 will end the exact same place in the end, probably without a council.
Most of all it will be interesting to see if he really is going to accept that "3", most of all it is a test of character.
Tell a fanatic with godlike powers that he is limited in teaching his creed?
Now, what could possibly go wrong?
 

Kipeci

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How is killing him in any way the best option? The only people who benefit from that are an extreme minority of water worshippers and crusty geezers who don't want to lose relevance as the council. Why should we decide based on their interests instead of the majority?
 
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Project: Eternity
I will make one last attempt though I realize from the votes already cast that this is not going my way.

Or we can say that he's an evil spirit who set the mountain on fire and have him killed and break his gem. This would work, but we would only be able to do it now, before he's managed to entrench himself into the tribe. I have to say, C is looking more and more attractive: I am coming around to what Vernydar was saying.

The point here is that you're all being extremely optimistic and imagining the best possible outcomes, or considering it a gamble. I think most of you are not weighting the risks and rewards well enough.
- I hear you talking of "balancing his power with the power of the water spirits". What guarantee is there we will even find the water spirits? And if we do, won't this guy manage to make their followers be heretics? Will they even live enough to be accepted by the tribe?
- Likewise, the idea of an antipope. Even if we find the water spirits, will we take down another ward? I say no, so we won't have someone as powerful as this guy
- Or, the councilmen should curb his influence. Really? Won't he have them killed by his fanatics? Assassinated maybe in the night? Corrupted by his gem? What guarantee is there that they can do anything about him?
- Also, you assume that we can have him teach to the moderates and avoid them going fanatics. What guarantee is there? If his very teaching or the stone make people become fanatics, they will BE fanatics, no matter what they were before.
- You seem to think he could be easy to remove. How? No esquilax, we know NO poisons. Curufinwe never mentioned it, I think it's safe to believe we do not know them. Will you confront his fanatics with weapons? Hope they are reasonable?
- You also seem to think the savages are influenced by another spirit. That could be but, what proof is there? They could also be smoking .... unhealthy plants. We simply have no idea. If they are not, all this point is moot
- Finally, you all seem to think he will be reasonable in conquest. I think not. I think he will give any people we manage to conquer the "convert or die" dilemma. Seriously, what good will a bunch of corpses do to us?

Wait a tick, what has this guy said that is just so bad?

How about the smooth skin? The red eyes? The crackling voice? The red eyes? The cheap theatrics he does? The red eyes? The emphasis on the fact he's only going to teach the ones who follow him? And let's not forget the red eyes?
This guy is cartoonish evil all the way. At the very BEST, he's a dangerous fanatic. At worst, he could be evil and/or mind controlled.

End of the line, the things come down to the fact that you're putting a dangerous person with possible external influences and at the very least psycopathic tendencies in a position of power with little chances to evict him easily should things go bad.

By the way my vote is to break the gem, and if not possible dump it in the lake. C -> B


This basically what I was trying to say in my earlier post. Basically, the tribe has a long history of taking hits in the process of technical advancement (re: fire initially and later bears), and unless we can be SURE that we can break him to the will of the tribe, we would be better off trying to destroy him. I am not sure what that breaks down to, since it is not a "placate and put on the council" more like a "swear and prove loyalty or be destroyed"
 

TOME

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How is killing him in any way the best option? The only people who benefit from that are an extreme minority of water worshippers and crusty geezers who don't want to lose relevance as the council. Why should we decide based on their interests instead of the majority?

How is keeping him alive the best option? So many things could go wrong and we could end up hurting. I highly doubt the Wielder is going to accept any other role than complete leadership of the tribe. And that would be bad seeing how we are steering this tribe at the moment.

In my opinion, killing is him is the best option. Even if we learned how to control him, there are still those other spirits. How are they going to react when we set loose their prisoner and took him in with open arms? And I'm guessing they are much more powerfull than our spirit.
 

Jick Magger

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Some people are a little devoted to the fire spirits. That's understandable, given that this guy who used to be a mere flame keeper has now acquired mastery over the flames! Better yet, he's offering to teach this. What's the problem for the overwhelming majority of us worshipping the fire spirits? Why would it make any sense for these flame worshippers to immediately attempt to kill him? They have no reason to do this, and we might not even actually kill him. Our first reaction upon meeting a superpowered guy from our stock offering to conquer the wimptastic tribes surrounding us should not be to shank him in the face, and if it is he deserves to burn us to a crisp and hook up with some other flame worshippers.
prometheus.jpg
 

m4davis

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Jan 20, 2012
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How is killing him in any way the best option? The only people who benefit from that are an extreme minority of water worshippers and crusty geezers who don't want to lose relevance as the council. Why should we decide based on their interests instead of the majority?

How is keeping him alive the best option? So many things could go wrong and we could end up hurting. I highly doubt the Wielder is going to accept any other role than complete leadership of the tribe. And that would be bad seeing how we are steering this tribe at the moment.

In my opinion, killing is him is the best option. Even if we learned how to control him, there are still those other spirits. How are they going to react when we set loose their prisoner and took him in with open arms? And I'm guessing they are much more powerfull than our spirit.
You want to know why cause trying to kill him could go wrong in so many more and worse ways.
 

Curufinwe

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A pretty massive victory for option E3. So, offer him some political authority as a council member and send some moderates to train with him. Let's see what happens next.

The council convened immediately after seeing the flames summoned by the Wielder, uncertain on the course of action to be taken.

The debate ran long into the night, finally a consensus was reached. The Wielder would be offered a spot in the council, to participate in all important tribal decisions. Before giving free access to his supposed powers to anyone who asked though, the training would be bestowed on two keepers chosen by the council. The Wielder received and accepted his new post with just a short esitation, apparently satisfied of the outcome.

Two of the most moderate keepers of fire, those who not long before had supported the creation of the water spirit worship, were summoned.
The elders took the two keepers to a side and asked them to report back on all that transpired during the training sessions.

Things were quiet for a while. Rebuilding efforts continued, the herds were slowly replenished, the dead were buried, fish was fished and communal shelters were yet again built.

The volcanic grumbles and explosions were slowly ebbing until, after two very harsh winters (during which the help of the Wielder and his trainees was invaluable to keep temperatures acceptable in the camp) and very cold summers, the sun again pierced fully the ash cloud, that slowly disappeared.

The two trainees started performing minor miracles, summoning small flames with their hands without efforts and starting larger conflagrations that left them drained.

It was nothing compared to the feats of the Wielder, who could apparently effortlessly throw balls of fire that exploded on impact a great distance away, and was always accompanied by an aura of heat that many found discomforting.

A few more winters passed by uneventfully. The only lasting consequence of the eruption was the pollution of the river, who kept dragging ash and slime into the lake. We were forced to send our fishing boats ranging far along the left shores.

It was one such fishing expedition that one day of summer came back to camp bearing important news: they had gone for days in search of bigger shoals towards the setting sun, until they reached the place where the hills stopped rising right on the shores and green plains were seen again.

images


That's where they met another boat, not of our tribe.
The men from the strangers' boat hailed them, very surprised to find boats coming whence none should be coming from, according to them. They said to be part of a small camp nested next to another river, survivors from some of the tribes living on the opposite shore of the lake who were forced to flee by an aggressive tribe of feral humans.

Our fishers, uncertain on what to do, remained vague about us and resolved to go back immediately and report on the situation.



During the council, a few men spoke:

A. The chief of the scouts was the first: 'Very interesting news. Those people look to be very similar to those who were once refugees and then became an integral part of our tribe. Let's send a delegation headed by the water shamans to their camp to discuss friendship.'
B. The head of the militia didn't agree: 'That's what they said. What confirmation do we have of their words? Send a stealthy scouting party first, to make sure they speak truth. Then, and only then, can we think of more options.'
C. The Wielder smiled slightly, stood up and said, his voice the soothing murmur of a small fire: 'This is the first of those tribes I mentioned when I first got back to our tribe. Let me head a delegation, to show them the glory of fire worship. I assure you they will be very eager to join forces with us.'

Author's note: from this update onwards I will spice things up a bit for myself and you. Other than the proposals I put down, you can make your own open suggestions (on the topic at hand, of course). If any of those reach a sufficient consensus I will put the voting up again the next day or, if it's overwhelming, just go with them as the main choice. If none are made or it's apparent none has support, I will just count votes as normal. This might slow down the rhythm since some proposals might be made late in the 24 hours grace period and subsequently gain small support because people aren't just logged in, and if I feel that is the case I will make it a 2-day update, but I think it's worth the risk.

If you don't like it, just say so and I'll resume the normal schedule. That's the first 'open' choice you can vote on, of a sort.

So:

D-E-F-G-H-etc. Open
 

Hirato

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A seems logical, but fuck it...
Let's go with C!

But I would suggest sending a water shaman along... Both as a contingency and to show the unity of our tribe.

EDIT:, extra clause
I'd like to change my vote a bit and add the following clause.
Depending on how things go, I'd be willing to loosen the restrictions we placed on him a bit based on some conditions...

1) he befriends the other tribe, or at least makes a favourable impression on them.
2) does not resort to force or coercion to "convert" the other tribe, regardless of whether he fails or succeeds.
3) The moderates who received his training remain sane and non-fanatical.

If those conditions are met, I'd be more than happy to let the Fire Wielder train any volunteers as he sees fit
 

Internet

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Mar 8, 2012
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Oh well, since we decided to welcome the fanatic fire-mage, might as well embrace the madness (if not, what was the point?).

C

I don't know if leaving the choices open to suggestions on a regular basis is a good idea for the reason you already mentioned (also, votes could become too spread around). I like it as an occasional one-off item, but this seems too much.
 

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