Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Ok so Betrayal at Krondor is awesome

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Gakkone, Feb 19, 2011.

  1. Mrowak Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Mrowak
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,756
    Project: Eternity
    Yes, you're right. That's the end of 8th chapter when you meet Pug. Chapter 9th is the final.

    Quite easily Betrayal at Krondor is the best RPG out there and I mean it. In terms of the story and its coherent game-world it beats the crap out of everything save Planescape: Torment, but it is still much better than PS:T as far as sheer gameplay is concerned.

    You'd think that after such a pearl devs would take it as an example of perfect RPG design and creat MOAR!!! A great tragedy that it has not come to pass. The spiritual successor Betrayal at Antara proved a bitter disappointment in the story department (which disqualifies it for me) and the sequel Return to Krondor was one bloody mess made bearable only thanks to a few moments of reflecting the light of its noble predecessor.

    Despair Gakkone. It was one time miracle that a game like this has seen the light. It created class of its own. There's nothing in its weight category that can compare to it.

    Man, I kinda wish someone could make sth like that again.
  2. Gakkone pretty cool guy eh Patron

    Gakkone
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    712
    Location:
    schmocation
    Codex 2013 Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
    Would you still recommend playing those? I was especially interested in Antara since I gathered it's very similar to BaK, but how much worse is it exactly?

    I hear you man :salute:
  3. Mrowak Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Mrowak
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,756
    Project: Eternity
    Yeah, you can play both of these. I would rate them both 6/10 (mind you using this scale I would rate Dragon Age 4/10).

    I must confess I never finished Antara - the kindergarten dailogues and general disinterest in the indrigue killed it for me. It had pretty good game mechanics though, quite different than BaK. Plenty of exploration, is good thing as well. As far as I remember magic system also seemed quite novel and interesting... though for love of God I cannot remember how it worked.

    Return to Kronder is totally different cup of tea. Different engine, pseudo 3D environments, small scope of the story and the game world (HUGE let down after BaK) Buhaha Ima EVUL!!! villain, clunky interface, so-so gameplay, and the fact that it is much too short is discouraging. On the flip-side it had some neat investigations, multiple quests, often hidden like last hell (you needed a number of playthroughs to find them all), nice C&C of limited scope, many secrets (multiple playthroughs without a walkthrough) and, at times, great atmosphere make it worth trying. Oh, and I liked voice acting.

    :salute:
  4. Monocause Augur

    Monocause
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    3,409
    Never played Antara, but I'd advise you to stay away from RtK. It's a bloody mess alright in pretty much every aspect. I seem to recall that a few Codexers had defended the game when it was discussed about a year ago or so, never could understood why - even if there's something decent in there it's so fucked up design-wise that I didn't have a chance to notice it.

    It's a terrible game that additionally is a sequel to one of the best RPGs ever so stay away from it unless you like to rage.
  5. Gakkone pretty cool guy eh Patron

    Gakkone
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    712
    Location:
    schmocation
    Codex 2013 Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
    Ok, thanks. I'll probably check out Antara at some point since I already got it off of GOG along with BaK. I'll have to see whether I'll bother with Return to Krondor, maybe find some of those previous discussions for more impressions.
  6. Suchy Arcane

    Suchy
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    5,309
    Location:
    Potatoland
    Umm, nope. RtK is a good game on its own, but a let down as BaK sequel. Definitely not terrible.
    +interesting quests
    +atmosphere
    +writing
    +awesome music
    +cool TB combat
    +voice acting
    -too short
    -too small scope (basically it's just Krondor and surroundings)
    -visual design (a subjective matter really, but I didn't like its presentation - 3D characters over prerendered static backgrounds)
    Worth playing? Yup, definitely. It's flawed, but still better than many RPGs out there. For example, I'd pick this over Baldur's Gate any time.

    Betrayal in Antara
    +exploration
    +HUGE map, a shitload of towns/villages (probably the biggest world in an RPG so far)
    +gameplay mechanics (pretty much the same as BaK, with some minor changes)
    +loads of quests
    -bad writing
    -characters (inane, mostly due to infantile writing)
    -visual design (I HATED those drawn characters)
    -ugly graphics
    -furries
    Worth playing? Only if you're starved for BaK style gameplay and exploration.
  7. nealiios Developer

    nealiios
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    San Diego, California
    Although it's been called a sequel, Return to Krondor was NOT a sequel in any meaningful way, but only a game set in the same general universe. There WAS a sequel in development at Dynamix, Thief of Dreams, that continued the storyline about Owyn's eventual rise as the magical advisor to the Kingdom of the Isles (to be told over two games) serving in a capacity as both magician and spymaster.

    Unfortunately when BAK didn't IMMEDIATELY make Sierra Online a goldmine (though in the long term BAK ended up being one of the most profitable games in Dynamix's very impressive history), we ran into issues. The management had wanted us to crank out TOD on a third of the budget of the original, but John Cutter and I told them we didn't want to comprimise the quality of what we felt was a very valuable franchise. Rather than negotiate about it, management's response was to kill the team and look for a low-cost alternative which ultimately became "Betrayal at Antara" (after John and I were both long gone). Had we been allowed to finish it, I definitely think it would have eclipsed BAK in almost every respect because the story was even better, the stakes even higher, and we had learned so much while making BAK that there were some terrific improvements in store for virtually every aspect of the game.

    "Return" happened when another company -- 7th Level-- purchased the license. Because they'd had some success building a puzzle game for Monty Python, they had believed that their Hollywood connections would make all problems disappear. They had no idea how complex a role-playing game was to develop, implement, and deploy. They spoke confidently that they could build a full sequel in 10 months (without having an engine to start with), but I told them straight out they'd be lucky to ship it in 18 months...and more likely, 24. The truth wasn't appreciated. After several months of consulting with them, both John and I realized that they had very little respect for the original title and for the groundwork the first game had laid. We both took our consultant checks and went our merry ways. Other than a few of my characters and some story details, there isn't much left of what we contributed to that title. I think it ended up taking them three years or so to finally push it to market, and then only after 7th Level had collapsed, it was bought by another company, then that company was repurchased by Sierra Online.

    And that, kids, is how RTK ended up being called a "sequel" to BAK.
    Infinitron and Araanor Brofist this.
  8. Admiral jimbob nope Patron

    Admiral jimbob
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    7,126
    Location:
    nope
    Wasteland 2
    Hmm yes think I might be skipping those

    Always interesting to hear insider insights like this, though, thanks for that.
  9. Black Bart Charley Scholar

    Black Bart Charley
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,128
    Fucking suits.
  10. Blackadder Prestigious Gentleman Magister

    Blackadder
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,088
    Location:
    Cuntington Manor
    The same old story, time and time again. Names change, but the rest stays the same. Thanks for that.
  11. Data4 Liturgist

    Data4
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,660
    Location:
    Over there.
    You don't know who Neal Hallford is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Hallford

    Educate yourself, son.
  12. nealiios Developer

    nealiios
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    San Diego, California
    Oh good grief. Take it easy on the boy. I'm not exactly Richard Garriot, Jon Van Caneghem, or Brenda Braithwaite. I'm definitely like game dev C List. :)
  13. Suchy Arcane

    Suchy
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    5,309
    Location:
    Potatoland
    Thanks for the insight. A real pity about ToD, looks like it could have been the game I was waiting for since playing BaK for the first time.
    Instead, I can expect some more button mashers, designed for teenagers with attention span disorder... eh
  14. Marquess Cornwallis Learned

    Marquess Cornwallis
    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    449
    It's always sad to hear about a great game that could have been. BaK was one of a kind, it had the best integration of narrative text and gameplay I have ever seen in an RPG.
  15. Zomg Arbiter

    Zomg
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    6,984
    I said some mean things about BaK in this thread and I'm mortified now
  16. nealiios Developer

    nealiios
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    San Diego, California
    The moderators gave me your home address and I've got a gang of AIDS infected bikers coming over. ;)

    But seriously, no worries. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
  17. Erebus Cipher

    Erebus
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,181
    The writing in Betrayal in Antara isn't that bad, really. It's true enough that the characters can be childish and that the dialogues between them aren't always great, but the game really shines as far as the minor encounters are concerned. Each village is really interesting to explore and I actually think BiA is superior to BaK in this regard. The setting is also better (Feist's Midkemia not being a very original fantasy world).

    "Is Betrayal in Antara worth playing ?" is such a recurring question that it probably should be in a stickied thread. My opinion is yes. It's certainly a flawed game, but it has good elements. It's really worth trying at least the first two chapters (if you don't enjoy them, you probably won't like the rest either).

    I wrote a more elaborate review quite a while ago : http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=27427
  18. Sceptic Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Sceptic
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Messages:
    8,598
    Divinity: Original Sin
    You're on the credits for a certain game called Betrayal at Krondor, and that's more than enough :salute:

    Thanks for the details regarding RtK's development. I remember hearing some vague rumors about the true BAK sequel and being very excited about it, then feeling very disappointed when finding out Antara had nothing to do with it. I also remember RtK's difficult development and constantly-switching developers (wasn't it with Pyrotechnix at some point?), but I didn't know you and John Cutter were initially involved in the design. Real shame about Thief of Dreams in any case. Sigh, all the good things that will never be...
  19. Hekateras Educated

    Hekateras
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    65
    Location:
    Germany
    Seeing this thread warms my heart, it really does. I think I might cry.

    Betrayal at Krondor is the most important game in my life. I was introduced to it as a kid, and adored it every since. (And it's not just nostalgia speaking - I replayed it a few years back, and it was still awesome.) You know how some stories sort of become the backdrop to your life, your own personal mythology? BaK was that for me. *sniff*

    It's almost certainly the best RPGs ever made, no question about it. Anyone who thinks it is anything less... well, I'd acknowledge differing opinions, but in this case I think they just didn't look deeply enough or weren't attentive.

    Eh. It has a few nice moments (Gorath becoming buddies with the dwarf king Dolgan over a night of drinking and merriment comes to mind), but on the whole the story suffers from Feist's adaptation. Enjoy with caution.

    @Suchy... that looks freaking amazing. O_O There's a remake (rhttp://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.Detail&id=412) being worked on for the NWN2 engine, but it's nowhere near finished yet, and the engine is, IMO, inferior to NWN's in many respects... Shame you're not going to continue yours, those are some genuinely awesome screenies.

    *squeals*

    Ego-surfing, are we? :P

    Dammit, that would've been awesome. *sigh* I've been wrecking my brain for years over what the whole cryptic foreshadowing about Owyn's great destiny could allude to. Please, please, please try to make that happen one day. The world just wouldn't be complete otherwise.

    Anything else you could reveal about Thief of Dreams, by any chance?
    Rhuantavan Brofists this.
  20. BLOBERT Magister Patron

    BLOBERT
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    2,936
    Location:
    BRO
    BROS I FEEL BAD

    MAYBE IT WAS THE SHIT 3D VIEW I JUST COULDNT GET INTO A FEW ABORTIVE PLAYTTHOURHGS BUT BROS YOU GIVE ME HOPE I WILL TRY AGAIN SOMEDAY
  21. SCO Arcane

    SCO
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    14,313
    It's a pretty great game.

    The 3d view is more interesting than it looks - there are wordlocks, traps, characters, villages, temples, ambushes, graves and quests around.

    If your stealth is high enough, you can ambush yourself.

    :love:
  22. made Arcane

    made
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,725
    Location:
    Germany
    It's funny that we had an actual game dev (!!!) of one of the most influential RPGs of the 90s post on the Codex and hardly anyone gave a fuck. What was the hot topic in March that everyone missed this?

    Neal, if you're still reading this: why the 3D controls suck so much?!
  23. Excidium P. banal

    Excidium
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    12,046
    Location:
    Third World
    Fucking this, I don't know how I missed the rest of this thread.

    Dragon Age 2 was released that same week. :M

    What's the problem with it? :?
  24. made Arcane

    made
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,725
    Location:
    Germany
    Ah yes, DA2. That explains it.

    As for the controls, you can either move or turn, not both at the same time. It pisses me off to no end because it makes steering around obstacles an exercise in frustration and I can't believe they left it in like that; maybe it's my keyboard dunno.
  25. Excidium P. banal

    Excidium
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    12,046
    Location:
    Third World
    Yeah it worked like that. Didn't bother me much but I can see how it could get annoying.

    The controls in Wizardry 6 annoyed me more, the down arrow is used to switch between strafe and turn modes, but I had come from M&M where you can backpedal so the first minutes were pretty confusing with me constantly changing movement modes trying to walk back. :lol:

(buying stuff via the above links helps us pay the hosting bills)