Ok so Betrayal at Krondor is awesome

[Gakkone]

Ok, thanks. I'll probably check out Antara at some point since I already got it off of GOG along with BaK. I'll have to see whether I'll bother with Return to Krondor, maybe find some of those previous discussions for more impressions.

 

[Suchy]

It's a terrible game that additionally is a sequel to one of the best RPGs ever so stay away from it unless you like to rage.

Umm, nope. RtK is a good game on its own, but a let down as BaK sequel. Definitely not terrible.
+interesting quests
+atmosphere
+writing
+awesome music
+cool TB combat
+voice acting
-too short
-too small scope (basically it's just Krondor and surroundings)
-visual design (a subjective matter really, but I didn't like its presentation - 3D characters over prerendered static backgrounds)
Worth playing? Yup, definitely. It's flawed, but still better than many RPGs out there. For example, I'd pick this over Baldur's Gate any time.

Betrayal in Antara
+exploration
+HUGE map, a shitload of towns/villages (probably the biggest world in an RPG so far)
+gameplay mechanics (pretty much the same as BaK, with some minor changes)
+loads of quests
-bad writing
-characters (inane, mostly due to infantile writing)
-visual design (I HATED those drawn characters)
-ugly graphics
-furries
Worth playing? Only if you're starved for BaK style gameplay and exploration.

 

[nealiios]

The spiritual successor Betrayal at Antara proved a bitter disappointment in the story department (which disqualifies it for me) and the sequel Return to Krondor was one bloody mess made bearable only thanks to a few moments of reflecting the light of its noble predecessor.

Although it's been called a sequel, Return to Krondor was NOT a sequel in any meaningful way, but only a game set in the same general universe. There WAS a sequel in development at Dynamix, Thief of Dreams, that continued the storyline about Owyn's eventual rise as the magical advisor to the Kingdom of the Isles (to be told over two games) serving in a capacity as both magician and spymaster.

Unfortunately when BAK didn't IMMEDIATELY make Sierra Online a goldmine (though in the long term BAK ended up being one of the most profitable games in Dynamix's very impressive history), we ran into issues. The management had wanted us to crank out TOD on a third of the budget of the original, but John Cutter and I told them we didn't want to comprimise the quality of what we felt was a very valuable franchise. Rather than negotiate about it, management's response was to kill the team and look for a low-cost alternative which ultimately became "Betrayal at Antara" (after John and I were both long gone). Had we been allowed to finish it, I definitely think it would have eclipsed BAK in almost every respect because the story was even better, the stakes even higher, and we had learned so much while making BAK that there were some terrific improvements in store for virtually every aspect of the game.

"Return" happened when another company -- 7th Level-- purchased the license. Because they'd had some success building a puzzle game for Monty Python, they had believed that their Hollywood connections would make all problems disappear. They had no idea how complex a role-playing game was to develop, implement, and deploy. They spoke confidently that they could build a full sequel in 10 months (without having an engine to start with), but I told them straight out they'd be lucky to ship it in 18 months...and more likely, 24. The truth wasn't appreciated. After several months of consulting with them, both John and I realized that they had very little respect for the original title and for the groundwork the first game had laid. We both took our consultant checks and went our merry ways. Other than a few of my characters and some story details, there isn't much left of what we contributed to that title. I think it ended up taking them three years or so to finally push it to market, and then only after 7th Level had collapsed, it was bought by another company, then that company was repurchased by Sierra Online.

And that, kids, is how RTK ended up being called a "sequel" to BAK.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Hmm yes think I might be skipping those

Always interesting to hear insider insights like this, though, thanks for that.

 

[Black Bart Charley]

Fucking suits.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Unfortunately when BAK didn't IMMEDIATELY make Sierra Online a goldmine (though in the long term BAK ended up being one of the most profitable games in Dynamix's very impressive history), we ran into issues. The management had wanted us to crank out TOD on a third of the budget of the original, but John Cutter and I told them we didn't want to comprimise the quality of what we felt was a very valuable franchise. Rather than negotiate about it, management's response was to kill the team and look for a low-cost alternative which ultimately became "Betrayal at Antara" (after John and I were both long gone). Had we been allowed to finish it, I definitely think it would have eclipsed BAK in almost every respect because the story was even better, the stakes even higher, and we had learned so much while making BAK that there were some terrific improvements in store for virtually every aspect of the game.

"Return" happened when another company -- 7th Level-- purchased the license. Because they'd had some success building a puzzle game for Monty Python, they had believed that their Hollywood connections would make all problems disappear. They had no idea how complex a role-playing was to develop, implement, and deply. They spoke confidently that they could build a full sequel in 10 months (without having an engine to start with), but I told them straight out they'd be lucky to ship it in 18 months...and more likely, 24. The truth wasn't appreciated. After several months of consulting with them, both John and I realized that they had very little respect for the original title and for the groundwork the first game had laid. We both took our consultant checks and went our merry ways. Other than a few of my characters and some story details, there isn't much left of what we contributed to that title. I think it ended up taking them three years or so to finally push it to market, and then only after 7th Level had collapsed, it was bought by another company, then that company was repurchased by Sierra Online.

The same old story, time and time again. Names change, but the rest stays the same. Thanks for that.

 

[Data4]

omfg it's neal hallford
*shriek like girls at beatles concerts*

Neal who now?

You don't know who Neal Hallford is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Hallford

Educate yourself, son.

 

[nealiios]

Oh good grief. Take it easy on the boy. I'm not exactly Richard Garriot, Jon Van Caneghem, or Brenda Braithwaite. I'm definitely like game dev C List.

 

[Suchy]

Thanks for the insight. A real pity about ToD, looks like it could have been the game I was waiting for since playing BaK for the first time.
Instead, I can expect some more button mashers, designed for teenagers with attention span disorder... eh

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

It's always sad to hear about a great game that could have been. BaK was one of a kind, it had the best integration of narrative text and gameplay I have ever seen in an RPG.

 

[Zomg]

I said some mean things about BaK in this thread and I'm mortified now

 

[nealiios]

I said some mean things about BaK in this thread and I'm mortified now

The moderators gave me your home address and I've got a gang of AIDS infected bikers coming over.

But seriously, no worries. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

 

[Erebus]

The writing in Betrayal in Antara isn't that bad, really. It's true enough that the characters can be childish and that the dialogues between them aren't always great, but the game really shines as far as the minor encounters are concerned. Each village is really interesting to explore and I actually think BiA is superior to BaK in this regard. The setting is also better (Feist's Midkemia not being a very original fantasy world).

"Is Betrayal in Antara worth playing ?" is such a recurring question that it probably should be in a stickied thread. My opinion is yes. It's certainly a flawed game, but it has good elements. It's really worth trying at least the first two chapters (if you don't enjoy them, you probably won't like the rest either).

I wrote a more elaborate review quite a while ago : http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=27427

 

[Sceptic]

Oh good grief. Take it easy on the boy. I'm not exactly Richard Garriot, Jon Van Caneghem, or Brenda Braithwaite. I'm definitely like game dev C List.

You're on the credits for a certain game called Betrayal at Krondor, and that's more than enough

Thanks for the details regarding RtK's development. I remember hearing some vague rumors about the true BAK sequel and being very excited about it, then feeling very disappointed when finding out Antara had nothing to do with it. I also remember RtK's difficult development and constantly-switching developers (wasn't it with Pyrotechnix at some point?), but I didn't know you and John Cutter were initially involved in the design. Real shame about Thief of Dreams in any case. Sigh, all the good things that will never be...

 

[Hekateras]

Seeing this thread warms my heart, it really does. I think I might cry.

Betrayal at Krondor is the most important game in my life. I was introduced to it as a kid, and adored it every since. (And it's not just nostalgia speaking - I replayed it a few years back, and it was still awesome.) You know how some stories sort of become the backdrop to your life, your own personal mythology? BaK was that for me. *sniff*

It's almost certainly the best RPGs ever made, no question about it. Anyone who thinks it is anything less... well, I'd acknowledge differing opinions, but in this case I think they just didn't look deeply enough or weren't attentive.

If anyone wants to check out the story but doesn't have time for or access to the game, there's always the novel.

Eh. It has a few nice moments (Gorath becoming buddies with the dwarf king Dolgan over a night of drinking and merriment comes to mind), but on the whole the story suffers from Feist's adaptation. Enjoy with caution.

@Suchy... that looks freaking amazing. O_O There's a remake (rhttp://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.Detail&id=412) being worked on for the NWN2 engine, but it's nowhere near finished yet, and the engine is, IMO, inferior to NWN's in many respects... Shame you're not going to continue yours, those are some genuinely awesome screenies.

Hey there,

Love what you were doing with the remake. I had thought of doing this myself a few times over the years, but the distractions of the daytime job kept me pretty busy. Is there a link where I can play your mod?

Best,
Neal Hallford

*squeals*

Ego-surfing, are we?

Thief of Dreams, that continued the storyline about Owyn's eventual rise as the magical advisor to the Kingdom of the Isles (to be told over two games) serving in a capacity as both magician and spymaster.

Dammit, that would've been awesome. *sigh* I've been wrecking my brain for years over what the whole cryptic foreshadowing about Owyn's great destiny could allude to. Please, please, please try to make that happen one day. The world just wouldn't be complete otherwise.

Anything else you could reveal about Thief of Dreams, by any chance?

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS I FEEL BAD

MAYBE IT WAS THE SHIT 3D VIEW I JUST COULDNT GET INTO A FEW ABORTIVE PLAYTTHOURHGS BUT BROS YOU GIVE ME HOPE I WILL TRY AGAIN SOMEDAY

 

[SCO]

It's a pretty great game.

The 3d view is more interesting than it looks - there are wordlocks, traps, characters, villages, temples, ambushes, graves and quests around.

If your stealth is high enough, you can ambush yourself.

 

[made]

It's funny that we had an actual game dev (!!!) of one of the most influential RPGs of the 90s post on the Codex and hardly anyone gave a fuck. What was the hot topic in March that everyone missed this?

Neal, if you're still reading this: why the 3D controls suck so much?!

 

[Excidium]

Fucking this, I don't know how I missed the rest of this thread.

What was the hot topic in March that everyone missed this?

Dragon Age 2 was released that same week.

Neal, if you're still reading this: why the 3D controls suck so much?!

What's the problem with it?

 

[made]

Ah yes, DA2. That explains it.

As for the controls, you can either move or turn, not both at the same time. It pisses me off to no end because it makes steering around obstacles an exercise in frustration and I can't believe they left it in like that; maybe it's my keyboard dunno.

 

[Excidium]

Yeah it worked like that. Didn't bother me much but I can see how it could get annoying.

The controls in Wizardry 6 annoyed me more, the down arrow is used to switch between strafe and turn modes, but I had come from M&M where you can backpedal so the first minutes were pretty confusing with me constantly changing movement modes trying to walk back.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Great to see some perspectives from the developer.

I disagree with Zomg's suggestion that you move straight to the main quest objectives.

Avoid it completely and get the most out of the world in the first chapter. Why?

You really do not know what to expect in the chapters beyond the first one, and maximum early exploration at the start of the game will

1) get you all the spells that you never know you might desparately need

2) get you all the training from the trainers throughout the game's world, to keep your characters combat ready

3) get you enough gems and precious stones to sell, to be sure you have enough money

4) use that money to buy discount Greatswords and Dragon's Scale Armor from a discount shop north of the map, and bless them from the Temple of Kahooli north of the map

Will this make the game too easy? No. It will keep you at par, and you will be less taken aback by certain combat situations that are near impossible to win. The game was designed with the precise expectation that you have already done maximum possible exploration. It's why the end boss is 100% impossible to beat without certain very specific spells - the game expects that you have already explored fully and gotten those spells. I had to start the game all over again after reaching the end - I learnt I had nothing to use against the end boss.

The downside of my approach is that it leaves James untrained, but when Locklear has already killed most of James' potential enemies in the first chapter, James does not need to be as strong.

 

[Renegen]

Would you still recommend playing those? I was especially interested in Antara since I gathered it's very similar to BaK, but how much worse is it exactly?

Never played Antara, but I'd advise you to stay away from RtK. It's a bloody mess alright in pretty much every aspect. I seem to recall that a few Codexers had defended the game when it was discussed about a year ago or so, never could understood why - even if there's something decent in there it's so fucked up design-wise that I didn't have a chance to notice it.

It's a terrible game that additionally is a sequel to one of the best RPGs ever so stay away from it unless you like to rage.

I would rate Betrayal at Antarra 7 out of 10. While the story is boring and even the graphics, art direction and music don't give the same feelings of immersion that Betrayal at Krondor had, the game still has great RPG mechanics. I'm talking about combat, finding new loot, side quests and an improved magic system. I bought Return to Krondor unfortunately when it first came out, and what garbage that was.

I need to replay BaK and BaA again...

 

[circ]

I'd play it again but Windows 7 doesn't want to install it.

 

[Mrowak]

I'd play it again but Windows 7 doesn't want to install it.

I heard GoG version of BiA works fine on Win7, so you could always find a way to ehm... "acquire" it.