Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Abelian]

And in fact some of them, like Firkraag or the Illithiid dungeon, can be a royal bitch if you try to do them in Chapter II. Unless you are a super-cool Codexian dude.

Link to an in-progress solo BG2 playthrough by a super-cool Codexian dude. All available sidequests were finished in Chapter 2. Of course, levelling is easier when the XP is not split between party members.

 

[Johannes]

It's not always "BG2 fans" per se. There's a certain school of posters here who like BG2 the most of all the IE games (excluding PS:T) because it came closest to emulating their idea of the ultimate Black Isle/Troika-style game, which is basically New Reno writ large, a city full of C&C and set-piece encounters. Sure, Athkatla didn't have much C&C, but it was a step in that direction.

I think the main reason BG2 is iiked is the fun combat, it's easily got the best encounter design of IE games. I don't know how it's much of a BI/Troika style game really. It's a D&D game done well, with a staggering amount of varied content.

It might, but that's not really relevant to Sawyer's gripe with BG2. As I said:

It's like how you can access all of Fallout's map from the beginning, but most players will still have a sense of progression, from Shady Sands to Junktown to Hub etc. Sawyer doesn't have any problem with Fallout's structure or pacing. It's about the density, not the non-linearity, openness or "freedom".

But that is retarded. Many of my favorite RPGs don't tend to have such an obvious line of progression, but allow for that free roaming and make you think to yourself, "what next?", whether it is about which sidequest to embark on or how exactly to progress on the main questline. It's much more fun when the next thing to do isn't always spoonfed to you, even if the game technically allows you to go off the beaten path. It's an accomplishment when you finish a tough quest, regardless of how much trekking you have to do to get to the next questgiver.
I also like how it makes the difficulty of different quests more difficult to gauge - in Fallout you can be sure enemies will get tougher the farther you get from the vault, but in BG2, well also BG1, it's more exciting when you don't know exactly how tough opposition you'll be against. And the combat system allows you to pull decent punches even when underleveled.

Going from Shady Sands to Junktown to Hub etc., is kinda boring in the way that once you've been to a location, and explored it, there's very little to come back to. Whereas in Athkatla, you're going around switching your locale regularly, and there's stuff going on, stuff to do all around you for a long time until you've depleted all the various quests.

 

[tuluse]

but most players will still have a sense of progression

In what way? And how do BG2's quests stop that? Still have to explain that except saying that it does.

You're arguing for some kind of textbook design again which apart from being bad on its own it's also Sawyer's textbook which makes it even worse.

A lot of players were overwhelmed by the amount of content to do in chapter 2.

A lot of other players might have liked more to do in later chapters and less in chapter 2.

It's not like there were dozens of BG2s made with differing design decisions made. So the only thing you can do is point to BG2 as the best IE game and say no one should do anything different from it because no one managed to surpass it.

Spreading content out doesn't seem like a particularly controversial move. Don't you want to see new designers try some things new?

 

[Infinitron]

I've never said BG2's way of doing things doesn't have its advantages as well.

Just saying the gating thing isn't directly relevant here. Remember, Sawyer initially said Pillars of Eternity would have Fallout levels of non-linearity. He is not some kind of plot-gating fanatic.

 

[Athelas]

Don't you want to see new designers try some things new?

You should already know what the answer to that question is going to be.

 

[FeelTheRads]

A lot of players were overwhelmed by the amount of content to do in chapter 2.

So? This is pretty much the main argument for dumbing shit down. A lot of players are overwhelmed let's cut content because we can't overwhelm with too much content!

A lot of other players might have liked more to do in later chapters and less in chapter 2.

They had the option to do it in later chapters.

Don't you want to see new designers try some things new?

Something new? By Sawyer? If something new is copy/paste from MMORPGS and lolas or mobas or whatever they're called then certainly not.

 

[Infinitron]

tuluse Arguing with FTR about Pillars of Eternity is usually a pointless exercise.

I can't wait for the game to come out. After he plays it seven times, he'll give us a great LP where he tells us how much he hated every minute.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Don't feel the troll Infinitron.

 

[Johannes]

tuluse Arguing with FTR about Pillars of Eternity is usually a pointless exercise.

I can't wait for the game to come out. After he plays it seven times, he'll give us a great LP where he tells us how much he hated every minute.

Butthurt detected

 

[Lhynn]

Infinitron thanks for reminding me why i dont think sawyer "gets it".

* Ill agree that most CNPCs didnt have the depth they should have had, they were exceptionally fleshed out when compared to anything else thats on the market tho. At least on this side of the world.

* Saving Imoen is only part of the motivation to find Irenicus, not only has he tortured you, which covers revenge, but he also has told you he would unlock your divine powers, so youve got greed. So yeah... hes kind of wrong, you didnt lack motivations or dialogue to represent them. You could even say you cared nothing for the girl, and that option was present in every single dialogue that was about the subject.

*PS:T already was out.

*Except that in Spellhold they throw this out forcing you to say to Irenicus that you are there for Imoen. Being able to say through the game that you don't care about her makes the moment to stand out more. They soulld had allow you to completely ignore Irenicus if you wanted, and if you do some time down the road just have him kidnap you or an encounter with his agents so you can find a different link to Spelhold and go there on your own.

*PS:T: isnt exactly the industry standard. But you are right. Havent gotten around to play it yet tho, so i keep forgetting how good people say it is.

*I dont remember that moment but its true, they should have added another dialogue option there. And you are free to completely ignore irenicus, you can even imagine him killing imoen, absorbing her essence and becoming a god while you talk two kids in the gates of the city into being together and ignoring what the others have to say about it.

 

[Johannes]

Infinitron thanks for reminding me why i dont think sawyer "gets it".

* Ill agree that most CNPCs didnt have the depth they should have had, they were exceptionally fleshed out when compared to anything else thats on the market tho. At least on this side of the world.

* Saving Imoen is only part of the motivation to find Irenicus, not only has he tortured you, which covers revenge, but he also has told you he would unlock your divine powers, so youve got greed. So yeah... hes kind of wrong, you didnt lack motivations or dialogue to represent them. You could even say you cared nothing for the girl, and that option was present in every single dialogue that was about the subject.

*PS:T already was out.

*Except that in Spellhold they throw this out forcing you to say to Irenicus that you are there for Imoen. Being able to say through the game that you don't care about her makes the moment to stand out more. They soulld had allow you to completely ignore Irenicus if you wanted, and if you do some time down the road just have him kidnap you or an encounter with his agents so you can find a different link to Spelhold and go there on your own.

*PS:T: isnt exactly the industry standard. But you are right. Havent gotten around to play it yet tho, so i keep forgetting how good people say it is.

*I dont remember that moment but its true, they should have added another dialogue option there. And you are free to completely ignore irenicus, you can even imagine him killing imoen, absorbing her essence and becoming a god while you talk two kids in the gates of the city into being together and ignoring what the others have to say about it.

It would've been cool if there had been a timer of some sort. Not to bring up a game over-screen, but just something to make that fake urgency of the main quest into something more interesting and less dissonant. Something, anything, happening when you sit on your ass for too long.

 

[Lhynn]

snip
It would've been cool if there had been a timer of some sort. Not to bring up a game over-screen, but just something to make that fake urgency of the main quest into something more interesting and less dissonant. Something, anything, happening when you sit on your ass for too long.

Yeah, but then again, quests that wait for you is a thing in almost all rpgs, and when you get timed quest you see people saying how fucking annoying that is because it doesnt let them play the game at their own pace.

 

[Abelian]

I think that the only timed quests in BG1/BG2 were the Marek poisoning quest and a few of the Underdark ones, respectively.

 

[Lhynn]

I think that the only timed quests in BG1/BG2 were the Marek poisoning quest and a few of the Underdark ones, respectively.

You could finish the game before the poison got to you tho, right?

 

[Abelian]

I think that the only timed quests in BG1/BG2 were the Marek poisoning quest and a few of the Underdark ones, respectively.

You could finish the game before the poison got to you tho, right?

Yes, I actually tested this in '99 and rushed through the game, but needed to summon Drizzt (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) for the final fight. Or maybe it was the chickens... I was a total newb.

I remember reading about a bug in the game that caused the poison to become incurable if the player killed Marek when encountering him, or didn't finish Lothander's part of the quest, or killed him without talking to him the second time he encountered him.

It would be hilarious (but pointless) if a BGT mod would remember the quest state and kill the PC a week later if he never found the cure.

 

[Xor]

It depends on where the code that kills you is located. If it's in the generic heartbeat script, then it probably would kill you even after transitioning to BG2 unless a modder manually flipped the variable that controls it off.

I might look into that with infinity explorer later.

Edit: Or I might do it now.
The variable that controls whether you're poisoned (PARTYCURED) shows up in DPLAYER2.bcs and DPLAYER3.bcs, at least on my (heavily modified) installation of BGT. DPLAYER2.bcs isn't referenced anywhere that I can find, but DPLAYER3.bcs is player's heartbeat script. I also couldn't find any references to PARTYCURED outside those two scripts, so it's not turned off when you transition to BG2.

So yes, unless I'm missing something, if you don't get the cure before beating BG1 you'd be completely fucked starting BG2 as you would be unable to get the cure at that point, although you could still use the console to set the variable to 1 which would accomplish the same thing.

 

[Johannes]

It would be hilarious (but pointless) if a BGT mod would remember the quest state and kill the PC a week later if he never found the cure.

Most likely the PC would die even before Irenicus captures him, or Irenicus being the cool dude he is, would cure it.

 

[Grunker]

You can just set the globals to PARTYCURED in the console if you're poisoned and it's bugged.

 

[Roguey]

when i interviewed at midway in 2003 one of the producers gave me a really bizarre design question/task, which was to design a weapon subsystem with two stats. i kept asking questions like, "what is the genre?" "what are the control conventions?" "what are the thematic elements we could reinforce through mechanics?" and the replies were basically, "those are irrelevant." years later i ran into him at another company and i told him it was one of the worst design questions i had ever heard/been given.

Josh, a light shining in the darkness.

Conversation about D&D Next:

and the dmg very likely has magic items in it, because thats how 3.5 did it.

no thats true and some dude in the enworld thread actually posted "and magic items are back in the DMG, as it should be"

grognards ftw

Those crazy 'nards, always believing ridiculous things.

 

[Lhynn]

Conversation about D&D Next:

and the dmg very likely has magic items in it, because thats how 3.5 did it.

no thats true and some dude in the enworld thread actually posted "and magic items are back in the DMG, as it should be"

grognards ftw

Those crazy 'nards, always believing ridiculous things.

Not following, what does he mean?

 

[Roguey]

Not following, what does he mean?

He means grognards are for the win, presumably because a sentiment like "Magic items should be in the dungeon master's guide, not the player's handbook" is an absurd one.

 

[Lhynn]

Not following, what does he mean?

He means grognards are for the win, presumably because a sentiment like "Magic items should be in the dungeon master's guide, not the player's handbook" is an absurd one.

Magic items should be in the DMG, NOT in the players handbook, how is that absurd?

 

[agris]

Lhynn thus we are grognards

 

[Lhynn]

Lhynn thus we are grognards

Define grognard.
Its just fucking common sense man, why would you put magical items in the players handbook? not even high level spells should be there.

 

[tuluse]

The Josh Sawyer/Roguey answer is that players should have all the information they need to make characters they want to roleplay without being gimped.

In practice this doesn't matter much for pnp because the dm can make his own magic items to support the players anyways.