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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Considering what Josh thought of BG2's chapter 2, I think he might gate quite a lot of optional content.
What did he think of it, he dislikes that too? :retarded:

He doesn't like how the game throws all the quests in the world at you at once (especially those that come through NPCs approaching you in Waukeen's Promenade).

That doesn't necessarily imply "gating", it could also mean spreading things out throughout the world a bit more evenly.

Here's his post about it: http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/449392305086952316

A lot of the problems I had with BG2 had more to do with specific design choices than with the overall style of the game. Avoiding (or ignoring) the problems I had with it while still having a similar style of game is pretty easy, IMO. Taking the specific things I listed a long time ago:

* CNPCs - Many of their introductions didn't sit well with me and I felt that there were too many who didn't have an equal amount of development given to them. While it was great that so many of them had a ton of quest content, I would have preferred a smaller list of companions with more attention to each one. This is what we said we were going to do at the start of the Kickstarter and it's what we're still planning to do.

* Being required to find/save Imoen - I didn't like it then and I still don't. I wouldn't make the player rescue an NPC with whom he or she may or may not have a positive relationship. It's a very specific plot point and easy to not do. I understand that a lot of people have no problem with the rescue plot, which is totally fine, but I don't think that particular plot point needs to be repeated in PE.

* Style of dialogue - I prefer naturalistic -- some would say "dry" -- dialogue. BG2's characters are much more expressive. This is a personal thing and I recognize that most players *don't* like the same style of dialogue that I do. What I strictly prefer and what I write and have others write are not the same thing. My characters in F:NV are still on the dry end of the spectrum (e.g. Arcade Gannon, Chief Hanlon, Joshua Graham), but there are plenty of more flamboyant, expressive characters in the game that other writers developed.

* Being flooded with quests in Athkatla - To be honest, I don't think is a controversial opinion! I've seen many other players say the same thing. BG2 has a crazy amount of quests, which is great, but the density in Athkatla was a little too crazy. I think those quests should have been spread out or staggered in some other way. PE is going to have more of an exploration focus than BG2 (though not as much as BG), so I believe that will help spread the content out more.

Even though I had those problems with BG2, my job as a lead designer and project director is not to create content that appeals specifically to my tastes. Obviously I would have a difficult time making a game that I *disliked*, but I have (and continue to) push for elements I feel that players will ultimately enjoy even if I'm not super thrilled about it. That's my job.

I have to agree with Sawyer that from a storytelling perspective BG2 was extremely lopsided. You can't ask Obsidian to make a game like that. SIDE QUESTS SIDE QUESTS OH MY GOD MORE SIDE QUESTS ITZ HEAVAN is "cool", but in an Obsidian game, the main quest and proper plotting and pacing can't be an afterthought.
 

Dorateen

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Is Storm of Zehir no longer considered an Obsidian game? Different team of developers, I know. But that should be the design model Obsidian aspires to. Instead of trying to be bioware-lite.
 

Rake

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Is Storm of Zehir no longer considered an Obsidian game? Different team of developers, I know. But that should be the design model Obsidian aspires to. Instead of trying to be bioware-lite.
MotB >>> SoZ
so their curent direction is just fine :smug:
 

FeelTheRads

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He doesn't like how the game throws all the quests in the world at you at once

And it's simply retarded to dislike that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

in an Obsidian game, the main quest and proper plotting and pacing can't be an afterthought.

Is "Obsidian game" a mark of quality or something? The less "Obsidian" this game would be the better.
 

FeelTheRads

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FeelTheRads Keep in mind that you are praising the storytelling technique of a David Gaider/BioWare game!

Right.. so? I liked both Baldur's Gate games. Bioware was fairly cool right until they went full retard.

Also I don't think that's a storytelling technique. More like game design technique. Not that Sawyer would know anything about it since he's only good at saying all systems except his are shit.
 

Infinitron

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Flattening your entire game content into one area like that has obvious storytelling implications.

That's not a demand for some kind of crippling linearity, either. Planescape: Torment also has a city full of sidequests that you can wander around in, but with the Hive-->Lower Ward-->Clerk's Ward progression it's less extreme and doesn't deprive the main storyline of all momentum.
 

Jasede

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I'm gonna be a contrarian and say that the "SO I HEARD YOU LIKE QUESTS" approach BG 2 took was just fine. Excellent, even. You have to keep in mind those games try to accomplish different things. Or rather, both games accomplish two different things, independent of what they may have attempted: PS:T tells its story and tells it well, using quests to add to it, rather than detract. BG 2 takes a different approach, or rather, it ended up, due to its execution, as a different beast.

Imagine you buy a D&D Adventure book. You know, one of those where there's little bits of text for the DM to read, lots of towns and NPCs and all kinds of neat things scattered around your PCs might or might not find. It's that essence of D&D - the more adventury, hack&slashy, swashbuckly D&D, BG 2 grasps very well. You wander around and find lots of stuff if you want to - or don't. Yes, this worsens the story-telling. But yes, it also strengthens its appeal as a 'P&P simulator' in the "wander around and explore and find loot and meet NPCs and fight battles and crawl dungeons" sense. Keep in mind you can take many approaches to P&P gaming.

You can have story-intensive games of various shades and colors and there are many systems focusing on narrative. Then you can go pure hack and slash. And then there's, of course, a lot of in-between. BG 2 is comfortably in the in-between, perhaps closes to the hack & slash and it does that well. The "everything at once, including the kitchen sink" approach to its quest design can, viewed from the perspective of someone who wants to live out those D&D Adventure books I mentioned, be considered an appealing thing rather than a detractor. It is true that it deprives the story of momentum - but the story, while serviceable, was never the strongest point of BG 2 in the first place. First and foremost were the battles and the dungeoneering and the autism-fueled (and happy days those were) ticking off the quests on your massive list of active quests.


So in the end, I guess, it comes down to what kind of game we want, or they want. Do they want to capture that D&Dy essence of delving into dungeons and exploring many places, doing all kinds of stuff, with the story being there, but more of an excuse to go out and adventure, or do they want to focus on the narrative? I feel that, especially given Obsidian's track record, trying to focus on both is tomfoolery.

So I guess what I am saying is that the BG 2 approach - which, as I have hopefully shown, does indeed have flaws as well as advantages is actually a better style for a game like this - with Exile tackling the PS:T, narrative style instead.
 

Athelas

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BG2's pacing was fine...unless you were one of the 4 players who gave a shit about Imoen. By now, RPG's should really be self-aware enough to not add a sense of fake urgency.

Flattening your entire game content into one area like that has obvious storytelling implications.

That's not a demand for some kind of crippling linearity, either. Planescape: Torment also has a city full of sidequests that you can wander around in, but with the Hive-->Lower Ward-->Clerk's Ward progression it's less extreme and doesn't deprive the main storyline of all momentum.
PS:T didn't really need that division between the Hive and the Upper wards. The momentum was always present since so many of the side quests had (thematic) ties to the main story.
 
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I agree with you that getting all those quests was great in BG2(actually, I don't think that's the contrarian point of view at all). That freedom to choose what dungeon you're going to crawl through or what monster you're going to slay next was my favourite part of BG2. But then they messed that up by sending you off to the asylum and places that followed, locking you away from the sidequests for a few chapters.

I'm hoping there's not too much gating but I'm not holding my breath.
 

Infinitron

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So I guess what I am saying is that the BG 2 approach - which, as I have hopefully shown, does indeed have flaws as well as advantages is actually a better style for a game like this - with Exile tackling the PS:T, narrative style instead.

Keep in mind that this game promised storytelling on par with PS:T in its pitch video.

PS:T didn't really need that division between the Hive and the Upper wards. The momentum was always present since so many of the side quests had (thematic) ties to the main story.

If by division you mean "plot gating", then maybe. But in terms of navigating the city, it was still a (broadly) linear progression from Hive to Lower Ward to Clerk's Ward, left to right. That alone has implications for pacing.

It's like how you can access all of Fallout from the beginning, but most players will still have pacing, from Shady Sands to Junktown to Hub etc. Sawyer doesn't have any problem with Fallout's structure or pacing. It's about the density, not the non-linearity, openness or "freedom".
 

tuluse

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Jasede his problem isn't with lots of quests (this is good). His problem is with them all being in Athkatla and starting in chapter 2. It actually hurts the sense of finding quests. He wants players going out into the wilderness to find them.
 

Arkeus

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Hormalakh


Above the picture it says: The current milestone is Twin Elms. Twin Elms is in Eir Glanfath, and the designers are working on the end of the game right now.

Combine that with: "and later on into a forested ancient kingdom."

2+2 =

Twin Elms is towards the end of the game and the PC visits the Eir Glanfath area of the map last.

HOWEVER, one of the first areas they worked on was the Animat Factory. I think that area is Eir Glanfath, and is possibly a Chapter 1 area (or just an optional area). As the exterior for that area was the first screenshot released game during the KS (which has since been re-worked).

Or, you know, it could simply be that it's far from the start point, so it's "later".

The same way that cloakwood was "later" in BG1, or even Baldur's gate itself (thought that was content gated).

I think you are trying to push through your own wants (or fears?) into the game, when the things actually said are completely different.
No Baldur's Gate game ever did that, other than the one big gating of Baldur's Gate. (a large exception, admittedly)

Or BG2 with spellhold/undersea/underdark/elves.

This extreme content-gating in BG2 is pretty much why i disliked 'all the quests in chapter 2/3', as it means that every content-gated areas felt so much worse than they should.
 

Jasede

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Jasede his problem isn't with lots of quests (this is good). His problem is with them all being in Athkatla and starting in chapter 2. It actually hurts the sense of finding quests. He wants players going out into the wilderness to find them.
I understand that; I am just saying it wasn't a problem for me and it wouldn't be a problem for me in this game either.
 

Roguey

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Is Storm of Zehir no longer considered an Obsidian game? Different team of developers, I know. But that should be the design model Obsidian aspires to. Instead of trying to be bioware-lite.
SoZ was Sozzy. It was like a pseudo-isometric party-based Oblivion, we don't need that.
 

Jasede

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The Codex is so weird.

There's all these guys and they somehow manage to maintain their same troll persona for months and months on end, for thousands of posts.

I think many of us must be mentally ill.
 

aleph

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There's all these guys and they somehow manage to maintain their same troll persona for months and months on end, for thousands of posts.

The frightening truth could be that these are not troll Personas. Think about this and its implications for a while..
 

Lhynn

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Infinitron thanks for reminding me why i dont think sawyer "gets it".

* Ill agree that most CNPCs didnt have the depth they should have had, they were exceptionally fleshed out when compared to anything else thats on the market tho. At least on this side of the world.

* Saving Imoen is only part of the motivation to find Irenicus, not only has he tortured you, which covers revenge, but he also has told you he would unlock your divine powers, so youve got greed. So yeah... hes kind of wrong, you didnt lack motivations or dialogue to represent them. You could even say you cared nothing for the girl, and that option was present in every single dialogue that was about the subject.

* F:NV companions are boring, plus companion break the challenge of that game... i rather just play it game alone.

* Athkatla was a better city than any designed by him so far, it actually felt alive. The first time you played it the amount of quests was overwhelming, and it added to the feeling of being in a strange big place that you didnt understand. They also made the game replayable as fuck as playtroughs could be wildly different depending on which quests you took and how you solved them.
 

Johannes

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Game is too dense with content? What the fuck is that... So you've got this huge city in front of you, should it be just filled with emptiness to avoid a player getting overwhelmed? Controversial or not that's retarded. The developer has to make more maps for the same effect and the player has to walk more, to get the same amount of meaningful gameplay.

I'm much more annoyed by big looking locations that in the end turn out that there's barely anything to do.
 

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