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NWN2 OC was not bad as people make it out

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IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
Soul removal to leave a dead shell is the best option usually, then there's a reason why you can loot the body, why you can't resurrect them and still leave options for the character to reappear if you so desire.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
One of the reasons why I ban all raise dead type spells in my tabletop campaigns. Dead is dead. It encourages players to be less cavalier with their characters.
Resurrection isnt easy unless you are DMing magic wonderland. Ive found teleportation to be far more harmful.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Isn't there a spell (True Resurrection?) that can bring back people from ashes or even bone fragments? In D&D that is. Resurrection is almost always cheap, it makes death into a revolving door that is only a mild inconvenience.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
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Messages
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Location
Bulgaria
Well resurrection is ok for a game mechanic. Without it many games will be tedious,nobody likes repeating the same shit thousand times. Still the barn girl death was pretty stupid,but i take it that she lost her soul to the demons or something.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
True Ressurection doesn't even require the body. As long as you have the diamonds, you can cast. A high level adventurer would be able to source the diamonds easily.

The problems with the 3.5 spell system is myriad: Teleportation, Polymorph, Gate, Raise Dead, etc. Most of those are in the PHB itself, which makes it even worse.

Of course, there are people who claims the many splatbooks in 3.5 makes for overpowered characters and only allow the core books. That is usually when I purposely make an overpowered character using nothing but the core books and start wrecking campaigns.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
Warning: Large wall of text about death in RPGs!

About death in RPGs in general, more development would be great in this area. For example (and pardon the rambling/different coinciding topics):

In a game that has a lot of party companions (which, IMO, RPGs should. Quantity > quality, or at least a high quantity of good enough quality), then the game should encourage losing a companion to be an "okay" game state, i.e. not an instant re-load. Maybe each character could have a short, scripted death sequence or death moment, i.e. say Jaheira dies in Baldur's Gate 1. She could have a scripted death "goodbye" after the battle. Say she gets KO'd for the battle and then afterwards, her and Khalid have a touching moment, or she gets to say her goodbyes, etc.. This would accomplish a few things. One, it would give the death actual significance, in the "create your own story" type of emergent gameplay. Your game would be unique to you because she died in your game fighting Elite Gnolls, etc. etc.. Two, it would encourage moving on with what you have. "Picking up the pieces and moving on", if you will. So now you would be encouraged to try a new party member. Of course this example is not taking into account Baldur's Gate 2 where Jaheira returns, but you could even have some metaphysical miracle reason for that happening written into the script if you so choose (Gandalf style, going from grey wizard to white, etc..)

The idea is to make it a sort of thing that you can live with, so to speak, rather than just being an insta-reload. In RPGs like Tactics Ogre for example, you had so many party members, all named and unique with story, dialogue, etc., but that you had unique characters waiting in the wings. So if a good fighter for your team died, they could be "replaced" and you could keep it moving. Some battles were so tough you may be 75% of the way to a victory (keep in mind this is some 45 minute knockdown, drag-out fight), and you'd roll with the losses just because you actually could win the fight. And so on.

Now you might think it would suck to lose an important story character, and I agree. But the characters in party-based RPGs, IMO, should not each have 250k lines of dialogue, etc.. I seriously think party-based CRPGs should have more quantity of characters. In other words, instead of spending all resources to give 6 or 7 total characters 250k lines of werds a piece, make 15 characters and give them each 100k. Take the resources you have and spread them out for more unique characters. Because that not only gives you more incentive to experiment with party builds, use characters you normally wouldn't or explore different characters more, it also would give death and permadeath more of an impacting, meaningful effect rather than "welp, time to re-load!"

I love in Baldur's Gate how there are so many characters (even if some are admittedly a little too underdeveloped), but it's cool to have so many characters that if a character or two dies, you can have that sort of "emergent story", go pick up another character and keep it moving. But if they added Death Moments to each character, some little "cutscene" or scripted few moments of dialogue (heck, maybe even have it somewhat randomized like banter. Maybe a dice would roll determining who would talk in the last few moments with the soon-to-be-dead character, or the whole party could chime in, lots of possibilities) that would give it more of a finalized feeling and also give incentive to keep it moving and accept that as part of your story.

In BG's example, a "chunk" where the character is blown to literal pieces and unable to be resurrected, that would be replaced with a "fatal blow" of some sort. So you could still resurrect your traditional "dead" or KO'd characters, but the final blow or final death would be just that, final, and would trigger the Death Moment for that particular character. Rather than a character exploding to pieces and then being very anti-climactic as well. Shoot, some dialogue could be randomized as banter, too, for certain characters to chime in later with who you should pick up. Imoen could say after 24 hours... "Gee, it was real sad Jaheira died. We're gonna need someone to help us now. Maybe we can head back to Beregost and see if Garrick is still around..." or something like this. That wouldn't be 100% necessary and more of a "luxury feature" but it could be cool.

I just would like more of this sort of thing and less of "you get 6, 7 max, characters, they each have 3 novels worth of backstory and your only choice is to use them or... not" in RPGs. There are so many story-based party CRPGs that neglect having a more gameplay-focus while still keeping bits of the story in tact (probably because story-based CRPGs with 6 characters sell well, since most of these games sell the characters themselves as being the game.)

Drunken rant but you get the idea. More Baldur's Gate CRPGs with tweaks to the formula would be welcomed. It could be done, man...
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,951
On one hand, I do think that magic should be able to do things flat-out impossible by mundane means, and that spellcasters (especially high level spellcasters) should feel, well, special. If all your magic can do is replicate what mundane stuff already does, with maybe some elemental effect for bonus, it loses a lot of that.

On the other hand, yeah, magic can wreck campaigns with ease, not just in 3.5 or even just d&d. Depending on the setting and with a little player imagination, it doesn't even have to be high level. I've been thinking of running a game here on the forums (since I have no luck being a player in one), a d&d one with a larger focus on survival (fantasy + post-apocalypse maybe?). And I ever find the courage to do so, first thing I will have to is throw a bunch of spells that make a mockery out of any attempt of running a game where food matters out of the window. You just can't run such a game in a system where just one first level druid spell can sustain a whole party indefinitely.

If I ever get around running a game, spells available to PCs would be strictly controlled. And that means no free teleportation spell for a wizard / sorcerer just because they gained a level, if they want that they need to find it somewhere first, it doesn't just magically pop in their spellbook / brain. Ditto for clerics - their deities are not some free spell dispensers and resurrection spells are not something they would just throw around. If they want to cast it they can only do so after doing something big in return. Anyway, that's how I would try to fix this.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
On one hand, I do think that magic should be able to do things flat-out impossible by mundane means, and that spellcasters (especially high level spellcasters) should feel, well, special. If all your magic can do is replicate what mundane stuff already does, with maybe some elemental effect for bonus, it loses a lot of that.

On the other hand, yeah, magic can wreck campaigns with ease, not just in 3.5 or even just d&d. Depending on the setting and with a little player imagination, it doesn't even have to be high level. I've been thinking of running a game here on the forums (since I have no luck being a player in one), a d&d one with a larger focus on survival (fantasy + post-apocalypse maybe?). And I ever find the courage to do so, first thing I will have to is throw a bunch of spells that make a mockery out of any attempt of running a game where food matters out of the window. You just can't run such a game in a system where just one first level druid spell can sustain a whole party indefinitely.

If I ever get around running a game, spells available to PCs would be strictly controlled. And that means no free teleportation spell for a wizard / sorcerer just because they gained a level, if they want that they need to find it somewhere first, it doesn't just magically pop in their spellbook / brain. Ditto for clerics - their deities are not some free spell dispensers and resurrection spells are not something they would just throw around. If they want to cast it they can only do so after doing something big in return. Anyway, that's how I would try to fix this.
I have a homebrew setting for post-apocalypse DnD 3.5. No wizards, no clerics, no monks, nothing that is tied to any organisation or require book learning. Would be nice to get a group together and play it table top.
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,951
I've long since given up on finding an actual group for play in person. I already have the general idea in mind - a plague that kills off 99% of world population and PCs are a party kicked out by last survivors to see if it's safe to come out. That would the start anyway, where this could lead I have no idea.

If you have a game ready and wish to give it a try, maybe you could try it here as well? I can promise you at least one player.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
I've long since given up on finding an actual group for play in person. I already have the general idea in mind - a plague that kills off 99% of world population and PCs are a party kicked out by last survivors to see if it's safe to come out. That would the start anyway, where this could lead I have no idea.

If you have a game ready and wish to give it a try, maybe you could try it here as well? I can promise you at least one player.
The play by email/forums thing tend to be too slow. It drives me nuts waiting for people to post what they are going to do :D I do like that I have plenty of time to describe the scene and the environment, though.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
That is usually when I purposely make an overpowered character using nothing but the core books and start wrecking campaigns.

What a knuckle-dragger.

One of the reasons why I ban all raise dead type spells in my tabletop campaigns.

Yes, I'm sure this knuckle-dragger has DM'd and isn't just another poser on the 'Dex pretending to have.

If you have a game ready and wish to give it a try, maybe you could try it here as well? I can promise you at least one player.

EN World is where it's at.
 
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buru5

Very Grumpy Dragon
Patron
Joined
Apr 9, 2017
Messages
2,048
Freeze is normally related to hardware/driver issue or user-error.

Everything is fine outside of occasional freezing -- it used to freeze sometimes in combat when I paused the game but that issue has been alleviated by running it in WinXP compatibility mode.
 

Erikolaz

Educated
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Messages
77
I'm planning a 2nd playthrough of the OC + MotB, and could use some advice. I remember very little, as I haven't touched them in around 10 years.

I'd like to play a character that feels right for the storylines. In example, I think a character of Lawful alignment would feel most right, considering you become the Knight Captain and serve Lord Nasher (IIRC).

Serving Kelemvor would probably be interesting for MotB. Are there any other deities that's relevant to the storylines? Any particular classes, races, or deities that unlock some special content/dialogue?
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
It isn't necessary to become a Knight Captain (legitimately) or serving Nasher. By going with the thieves you kinda force your way into the higher ranks by route of the ...least reputable knight in his employ. I'd advise going with everything but Lawful Good and serving Kelemvor *shudder*. I'm not particularly certain that worshiping Kelemvor gets you extra dialogue with him, going with Ilmater gets you some extra 2 lines of dialogue with Kaelyn. Monks have extra content in the keep, i.e. getting the Sun Soul quests.
 
Last edited:

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
I don't think it matters all that much whether you worship him or not, I mean story-wise. He is already letting you off the hook, what more can you possibly want? Apart from prostrating yourself to him when you meet, I don't know what more interaction can be there.
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
The keep was great and I felt the game was at its best during those acts. Of course, the trial was great too.

It was so satisfying upgrading the keep to the max even though it didn’t matter that much in the end.

Sand was a great companion, shame he didn’t make it to MotB.

I feel that if Obsidian made NWN2 now it would have a lot more reactivity. I think their best writers were all working on KOTOR 2 at the time.
 
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aweigh

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Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
Tips for a new playthrough of OC + MotB?

- Alignment: Can't go wrong with good ole' CHAOTIC-GOOD. It's the catch-all alignment which allows role-play of both the do-gooder and the self-serving wandering adventurer; also allows for almost any character class (besides those which have specific alignment requirements).

- Character Class: THE BELOW TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THE COMPANIONS AND THEIR CLASSES ***
a) Power Gaming Option: Cleric Class with careful selection of your two Domains to round out your extremely powerful character. A Cleric with Domains which grant access to stuff like Stoneskin or Haste is simply too good of a character considering a Cleric is already almost as good at Martial Abilities and Martial Combat as non-Magical character classes.

b) Non-Power Gaming Option: If you don't want to go Cleric then go for something 'fun', like a Warlock or a Favored Soul, or even a Barbarian. Personally I am very partial to the straight-up generic Fighter as my preferred class in a fresh NWN2 OC + MotB playthrough.

- Mods: I can't really remember any mods which I would consider 'essential' besides perhaps the Enhanced GUI Modifications which raise the resolution and modify the utility hotbars and Item Icons.

The only modification I remember always installing is the Loot Randomizer which makes all of the OC's normal treasure chest give randomized loot taken from leveled lists. (don't know if they ever updated it for MotB).

I remember the Loot Randomizer being very good and I distinctly remember the mod making my 2nd playthrough of the NWN2 OC (back in 2012) more fun than my first one, though I enjoyed the NWN2 OC much more the 2nd time around regardless of any modifications.

EDIT: *** ONE MOD THAT IS ESSENTIAL: THE SPELL/COMBAT VISUAL FX ERADICATOR!!!

If you download only one mod make sure that it is the one that removes all of the eye-raping VFX from spells and other crap during combat.

You will probably / would probably also enjoy using that one mod which allows MULTI-CLASSING NWN2 OC Companions: I believe the name of the mod was "Feather of Multi-Classing".
 
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aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
Oh, and lastly don't forget to utilize Tony K's "A.I. Mod". Can't imagine playing through NWN2 OC + MotB without the expanded A.I. options and utility that comes with that thing.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
I'm planning a 2nd playthrough of the OC + MotB, and could use some advice. I remember very little, as I haven't touched them in around 10 years.

I'd like to play a character that feels right for the storylines. In example, I think a character of Lawful alignment would feel most right, considering you become the Knight Captain and serve Lord Nasher (IIRC).

Serving Kelemvor would probably be interesting for MotB. Are there any other deities that's relevant to the storylines? Any particular classes, races, or deities that unlock some special content/dialogue?
There are a few throwaway lines if you are a drow or something equally weird, I think, although you get enough of the put downs simply because you are a Harbourman. You also get to talk to a certain NPC easier if you are drow, druid or ranger, but if you have the druid companion with you, she will do the same for you. You are not going to be cut off from certain quests completions based on race or profession, unlike IWD2.

Spellcasting is better in NWN2 because of the targetting circle, but one of the easiest ways to get through the game is still good old Fiighter/Bard/RDD, only now you can also tack on weaponmaster which you couldn't do in NWN. Messing around with Monkey Grip and dual wielding greatswords is hilarious.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,084
Location
Bulgaria
In all the d&d games i play as a true neutral pure rogue.
 

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