NWN OC plot was cut, possibly due to publisher meddling

[Roguey]

Bottom line: It appears that the production of NWN OC was "troubled", and Bioware has been hiding it all these years.

Er... back before it was released everyone knew NWN's development was troubled. All those delays and a publisher switch make it pretty obvious.

 

[Infinitron]

Bottom line: It appears that the production of NWN OC was "troubled", and Bioware has been hiding it all these years.

Er... back before it was released everyone knew NWN's development was troubled. All those delays and a publisher switch make it pretty obvious.

Sure, but not "we had to butcher our game's plot" troubled. All this time I'd assumed they intentionally made a "tech demo" original campaign.

 

[waywardOne]

I hardly see any significant improvement. There's just more backstory to the derpy gameplay and the plot is still shit.

Good find, though. I enjoy design docs even if the final product sucks.

 

[Erebus]

The first part of the actual game is quite close to what was described in that document and it was dreadful, so I'm fairly sure that the game would still have been terrible.

Besides, it doesn't matter. Anybody can claim that he would have done a great job under better circumstances. Nothing in the NWN OC we got suggests it could have been a good game.

 

[Roguey]

Mass Effect was pre-EA, it was published by Microsoft.

 

[Mastermind]

The madness system would potentially be illegal to use, depending on how exactly they implemented it, so I can understand that getting cut.

o_O

Patent law is fun (and not Fun). Basic summary is that Nintendo owns a patent on screwing with the player as their character's sanity drops (Used in Eternal Darkness and the hopefully upcoming Eternal Darkness 2), which that could potentially run into.

If you really want to torture yourself, you could do the stuff to qualify as a patent agent if you have a technical degree.

I doubt it would stand up in court. Cloning gameplay is such a deeply rooted tradition of the gaming industry that it would be absurd otherwise.

 

[Malpercio]

NWN OC

 

[deuxhero]

Also, I doubt WotC would EVER let them kill Nasher, even if Atari did.

Atari had absolutely no control over this. WotC/HASBRO have to approve every single part of a game's story line, and only they make the absolute call on what is and what is not allowed.

So Atari is irrelevant. Still means they aren't going to do anything of any value in the Stagnant Realms.

The madness system would potentially be illegal to use, depending on how exactly they implemented it, so I can understand that getting cut.

o_O

Patent law is fun (and not Fun). Basic summary is that Nintendo owns a patent on screwing with the player as their character's sanity drops (Used in Eternal Darkness and the hopefully upcoming Eternal Darkness 2), which that could potentially run into.

If you really want to torture yourself, you could do the stuff to qualify as a patent agent if you have a technical degree.

I doubt it would stand up in court. Cloning gameplay is such a deeply rooted tradition of the gaming industry that it would be absurd otherwise.

Do you have the money to quash the patent?

 

[Volourn]

"Sure, but not "we had to butcher our game's plot" troubled"

Bullshit. The modules were suppsoed to be completely seperate and were eventually tied up. There were going to be no joinable npcs at all. A lot of shit wa sknown - not as specific as detailed in this thread but it was definitely not honky dory. Which, duh, how many games change publisher midstream? Nearly ZERO.


"The first part of the actual game is quite close to what was described in that document and it was dreadful,"

No, it isn't did you even read it? FFS They seemed to have different 'origins' depending on your class which did not occur in the actual OC, YOU DUMB FUCK. That's a pretty BIUG fukkin' difference. That's 'origins' before DA or even TOEE 9though it came out abotut he same time).

FFS People on the Codex are so moranic. It's fukkin' hilarious!

 

[Angthoron]

NWN OC storyline was shite. Would've probably been better if it were made of disjointed modules. There was a couple of decent moments, granted, but that's about it.

However, I loved the amount of detail put into combat. Detail being cosmetic detail, I should clarify - parries, dodges, ripostes, everything having its own (fairly good, especially for its time) animations. And then there was mage combat too, which was quite cool to watch. So, yeah. Withouth module-making and multiplayer/GM capabilities NWN OC is at best a mediocrity with pretty animations and good ambient sounds. And a resource hog, to boot.

 

[Volourn]

NWN OC story was average. BETTER THAN SOME, WORST THAN OTHERS. average.

 

[hoverdog]

WORST

With that we can all agree, I think.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

When you take expectations raised by BG2 into account, I think NWN was actually the worst game I ever played. It's a complete abortion.

 

[Infinitron]

The transition from 2D to 3D was hard for all RPG developers. It could have been worse - Origin tried it 3 years earlier and the result was Ultima IX.

In the long run, Bioware did a good job delivering a one-of-a-kind roleplaying game platform.

 

[dibens]

My problem with NWN OC was not the story (you grow a tolerance to such things as a gamer), but how paaainfully easy/boring it was. And to be honest I don't get the hate on the game itself- the 3rd edition rules what with all the crazy feats, parries/dodges and exotic professions is by far the most satisfying character building experience in ANY virtual DnD game. Now add to the mix all the glorious modules and multiplayer and you get a great value for your buck.

 

[Ion Prothon II]

The transition from 2D to 3D was hard for all RPG developers. It could have been worse - Origin tried it 3 years earlier and the result was Ultima IX.

In the long run, Bioware did a good job delivering a one-of-a-kind roleplaying game platform.

What the fuck.

Bioware did anything but not a good job. Their 'roleplaying game platform' is shite and suxxxx. That's all I have to say about this crap. Infinity titles worked like 3D games with fixed camera, but NWN only proved the progression to the full- 3D can't be done right, and DAO proved it even more. CDP modified the shit out of Aurora for TWitcher1, but in the end the turd was still turd.

Besides:

Spoiler

In games like this, there's no such thing like a 'successful 2d->3d transition'.
Almost every single one isometric cRPG with full- 3D ends up as a design failure, especially when it comes to closed, indoor locations. I don't even know if there is any game of this 'almost'.
(AoD is an exception, since there's nothing to look for there )
Thing can pass only if the game is done as an isometric/TPP hybrid, and has a specific location design. Like DA2 (not DA1).

Your Ultima 9 is virtually a case of total conversion and a TPP, like King's Quest 8 and Gothic, and don't belong to this cRPG subgenre anymore.
But Summoner (2000, Volition) was like NWN before NWN, and did it much better.
(Can;t recall ATM if it was more like Aurora or Oddysey/Eclipse; but it was the example of semi- succesfull hybridal game)
I've just written a fucking wall of text about. I hope you're happy with what have you done, with your petty provocation.

 

[RK47]

And nothing of value is lost since either way, we'll still have the wonderful player-created modules.

 

[Ulminati]

NWN OC: 0/10
95% of user made modules: 2/10
95% of user-made "persistent" multiplayer servers: 3/10
NWN Expansions: 4/10
5% of user-made modules: 6-8/10
5% of user-made persistent servers: 9-10/10

Neverwinter Nights is done a huge disservice by people who only bothered playing the official campaign. The real star of that package was the toolset. The OC was shit, but for a real-time implementation of 3rd edition d&d they got pretty close and the UI was functional if bland. But some of the user-made modules out there were really, really good. And if I add up the time I spent as a player on a bunch of servers, as a DM on Daggerford running quests, as a DM/Builder on Haze and Happyworld and as a dungeon-designer on a few theme park servers NWN is probably the game I've spent the most hours on ever. Following a bunch of PCs planning and preparing to invade a drow stronghold for over a month, culminating in 25 players and 4 DMs running a multi-pronged dungeon/raid/skirmish fight that saw PCs who had been around for almost a year on a permadeath server finally die heroic deaths was an event people talked about for years after.

 

[CappenVarra]

It's found in the nature of a man, most likely

Exactly. Curses, now you've done it. Why? Because I can imagine how "tribal and primitive race of lizardmen conspires to reclaim their primal powers from the forgotten past when they ruled the world as gods" could be a pretty nice adventure hook in the hands of a competent DM, or a nice story hook in the hands of a blasphemous writer.

Of course, you'd have to drop the bullshit about lizardmen being evil - they are merely non-human, alien and incomprehensible - good and evil are delusions of weak mammal moist robot manboon brains, not shared by the true rulers of the world. The Old Ones being evil because they show casual disregard towards lives of humans and other humanoids makes about as much sense as humans being evil because they show casual disregard for the lives of cattle and insects: none at all. Yes, I know that Faerun has many instances of Cartoony Good battling Cartoony Evil, but I don't care. We're not talking millennia ago as they suggest, we're talking countless and nameless aeons ago - and that means all familiar rules are out. I'd say this is Bat Country, but bats are also mammals and too familiar compared to lizards... So, welcome to Lizard Country.

Then, the whole Aribeth angle needs work. Instead of "hot paladin chick goes herpaderp blackguard because her lover got fragged", give it a bit of leeway for fuck's sake. See, it's basically about a misguided follower of the Maimed God realizing that Justice is an illusion after slamming into an example of Just Sacrifice face-first. Tyr was just, because he is a) lawful and bound by honor and tradition b) good i.e. willing to sacrifice (his hand etc.) for the greater good. Aribeth thought that she could and should follow that ideal, but was proven wrong. Facing that failure, she could develop by either:

a) Dropping the good part of her alignment and becoming a zealot; good i.e. the acceptance of personal sacrifice for others is a weakness, and only rigid adherence to strict immaterial axioms can provide strength. Mortals succeed or fail in the degree that they manage to know and follow the immutable laws of the world, which are not the world but which govern and create it (as Lyric Suite teaches us). Oh, and by the way, since the lizardmen have been in the world for so much longer and have created huge parts of it so long ago, they are much more in tune with those immutable laws, and the only truly Lawful path is to join the lizardmen cause...

b) Dropping the stuck-up lawfulness and dedication of her past life; becoming a good-natured, carefree strumpet, living day to day, seeking pleasure and having no greater joy than sharing pleasure with others. The more the merrier! After all, we're all going to die soon and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, so we might as well spend our final days in joy and explore the unbounded thrills of the senses while we can...

Let's see, what else? Oh yeah, instead of "Where does Evul lie?", make the central theme along the lines of time, decadence and mindless entropy. D&D is all about exploring and looting forgotten ruins of an ancient golden age, whose downfall was the very thing that made it possible. Lizardmen were once at the apex of power, beings of boundless ability creating reality out of whims because they could - and now they're not only sub-divine but also sub-human (remember, the equivalent of sub-canine in human terms), mindless brutes dreaming of past glory their devolved brains can't even comprehend anymore by night, and rooting in the mud for sustenance by day, cowed by beasts they once hunted or created. They are Dead but Dreaming, for their dreams are brief glimpses of glorious past, and their waking is an undecipherable veil of oblivion... Humans might be near the mortal apex now, but they are also doomed to the same fate - as is any other intelligent race in Faerun. With the right dialogue choices, the party can make Elminister and Drizzit realize the tragicomic futility of existence and commit suicide (finally!).

Then, this whole lame "short-term power leads to evil, long-term wisdom leads to good" angle implied in the lizardmen amulets? You must be kidding me. No, let's go with: sticking to misguided human (manboon) ideas of "good" and "evil" will only lead to failure. In fact, there is no way to stop the lizardmen from destroying the world - because they are its true creators and rulers, and the world must take part in the destiny of its creators. Faerun can only be a chaotic swamp wasteland ruled by scaly idiot gods - and the fact it hasn't already become such is just a short-term (in cosmic terms) fluke and result of foreign influences that cannot hold (because they are foreign and unlawful, from the underlying cosmic perspective). The only way to win the game is by being amoral and gathering raw power, ascending above foolish human notions of morality. The words of power etc. can serve that function well enough, as long as they are not lizard-created: they are eternal, and the lizardmen are just one of the countless races that has learned them since the dawn of time - and they used them to create their Paradise, which briefly slipped away from their grasp, but will now return to its rightful rulers... The party can only survive by tapping into (being infected by) that primal source of power and creating their own world and paradise, in which they are as gods. Who cares about shitty Faerun and its lizardmen rulers, when you have your own private world in which your slightest whim becomes real thanks to the immense powers you wield? Victory is sweet, glorious, and ours...

The epilogue happens in the far future of that player-created world. The party members are of course still alive despite the countless and nameless aeons that have passed - because in this world they created, they are effectively immortal. However, time, decadence and entropy must always take their toll - and the party members are now beings of divine power, but oblivious to their nature - idiot gods too far gone to even remember they posses divine power, chewing lichen from trees and particularly slow bugs to survive, while their previous prey and creations prance about ruling the world, lulled by the illusion of sentience... And only rarely do they hear the mad piping of Azatoth, laughing at the colossal joke of existence...

P.S. And then one of the party members awakes on a slab in Mortuary, having forgotten the whole story...

P.P.S. This post sponsored by my tequila vendor.

P.P.P.S.

 

[Infinitron]

NWN: Shadows of Blakemore

NWN OC: 0/10
95% of user made modules: 2/10
95% of user-made "persistent" multiplayer servers: 3/10
NWN Expansions: 4/10
5% of user-made modules: 6-8/10
5% of user-made persistent servers: 9-10/10

Neverwinter Nights is done a huge disservice by people who only bothered playing the official campaign. The real star of that package was the toolset. The OC was shit, but for a real-time implementation of 3rd edition d&d they got pretty close and the UI was functional if bland. But some of the user-made modules out there were really, really good. And if I add up the time I spent as a player on a bunch of servers, as a DM on Daggerford running quests, as a DM/Builder on Haze and Happyworld and as a dungeon-designer on a few theme park servers NWN is probably the game I've spent the most hours on ever. Following a bunch of PCs planning and preparing to invade a drow stronghold for over a month, culminating in 25 players and 4 DMs running a multi-pronged dungeon/raid/skirmish fight that saw PCs who had been around for almost a year on a permadeath server finally die heroic deaths was an event people talked about for years after.

I think you're being too harsh on the expansions, which I consider to be classics, but

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Hey dudes, can you delete the original OCs without borking anything to save on install space? I have the diamond edition thing sitting around waiting for some good custom singleplayer modules and I think getting rid of all that crap except for HoTU would be ideal

 

[Infinitron]

Hey dudes, can you delete the original OCs without borking anything to save on install space? I have the diamond edition thing sitting around waiting for some good custom singleplayer modules and I think getting rid of all that crap except for HoTU would be ideal

They have module files which you can delete. But I imagine plenty of their data is stored in hak files and such so dunno how much space that would free up.

Also, keep SoU, low-level campaigns are a wonderful thing.

 

[Ulminati]

I think you're being too harsh on the expansions, which I consider to be classics, but

Probably. I frequently turn to hyberbole and oversimplification when making a point. The out-of-ten rating numbers were pretty much pulled out of thin air for the purpose of illustration. The point of my post was that NWN as a game should be judged on the merits of what the community turned it into and not on the on-release campaign, since it was being marketed from the start as a build-your-own-adventures product with a remarkably polished toolset bundled from day 1.

 

[Volourn]

"hen you take expectations raised by BG2 into account, I think NWN was actually the worst game I ever played."

Fukkin' moran.

Codex stupidity. Codex stupidity never changes.

 

[Black]

I agree, Volly, BG2 didn't raise any expectations.