Disco Elysium Pre-Release Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[ArchAngel]

So, since failure is not inherently a bad thing in the game (well, not always, anyway), are you doing anything to curb potential save scumming?

The smartest way would be to show real results of your success or failure 1 hour later while only small effect right away.

 

[Lhynn]

The smartest way would be to show real results of your success or failure 1 hour later while only small effect right away.

A lot of the checks are made as you perform the action.
And i think i read the developers are against fixed checks with no rolls.

 

[ArchAngel]

The smartest way would be to show real results of your success or failure 1 hour later while only small effect right away.

A lot of the checks are made as you perform the action.
And i think i read the developers are against fixed checks with no rolls.

What does that have to do with what I said?!

 

[Kasparov]

The smartest way would be to show real results of your success or failure 1 hour later while only small effect right away.

A lot of the checks are made as you perform the action.
And i think i read the developers are against fixed checks with no rolls.

What does that have to do with what I said?!

REALLY? For realz? This is all it takes? Chill, dudes.

That very smart way and its implementation depend very much on the situation where the dice is rolled for a check (READ: it is really up to the writers).

What you've described is exactly how it works mechanically: you get an immediate reaction followed by something else or other soon or way later in the game. That later event may be a non-event by blocking a path you could have taken after a red-check success. Or it could be a situation that is "simply" more complicated because of that earlier (red-check) failure. OR it could be that because of said failure you do not get a wonderful new idea for your thought cabinet that might give you a boost or prize in another situation. It is really up to the writers and only their imagination is the limit. Hence the ingenuity of the system.

Having played the shit out of Age Of Decadence, I really dig this approach. Without rolls, AoD was too clear cut CYOA for my tastes. (underline my tastes here) and could have used a few rolls in there to shake things up.

 

[Prime Junta]

How are you dealing with the incentive to save-scum before every conversation? Just leave it up to the player?

 

[Kasparov]

How are you dealing with the incentive to save-scum before every conversation? Just leave it up to the player?

Punishing the character is one thing, but the player should not be punished under any circumstances. That's why right now there are no active measures in place (ie seeding) to discourage save-scumming. It's a stretch, I guess, but you could say that there are some passive measures in use. The dialogues and rolls are designed in such a way that if you reload you don't simply lose that one unsatisfactory roll, but there's often a good chance that you'll lose a few other successes or failures as well. Then it is really up to the player if they are willing to risk losing or missing out on some other content or flavor.

I mean.. there are dialogues that branch out like a motherfucker with checks in all the right intersections that guide the player from drama to triumph to ridicule to horrible gut-wrenching failure. Check this out, if you missed it before:

 

[Lhynn]

Have you thought of hiding checks and results? and merely conveying what happens through text.

This way the player would feel the sting of failure without feeling like a reload is necesary. Players are conditioned to reload on failure, if they cant tell with all certainty that they have failed, they usually wont retry to get "everything right".

 

[Kasparov]

Have you thought of hiding checks and results? and merely conveying what happens through text.

This way the player would feel the sting of failure without feeling like a reload is necessary. Players are conditioned to reload on failure, if they cant tell with all certainty that they have failed, they usually wont retry to get "everything right".

If you remember, Pillars had that option. Literally in the options menu - you could toggle rolls between hidden and visible. NO TRUCE! tries to bring the best bits of tabletop RPG to the digital platform - rolling dice is one of those things. Hold your mouse in your palm, blow on it, and punch the key! (You're welcome to use a controller, but that makes you a furry)

EDIT: Also, Thought Cabinet and Electrochemistry as well as the buh-buh-boring old inventory can be used to manage your chances to succeed and fail. The whole shebang is designed with visible checks and rolls in mind.

 

[Lhynn]

If you remember, Pillars had that option. Literally in the options menu - you could toggle rolls between hidden and visible. NO TRUCE! tries to bring the best bits of tabletop RPG to the digital platform - rolling dice is one of those things. Hold your mouse in your palm, blow on it, and punch the key!

Then display how high you rolled, even in PnP you never know if you succeded or not until the DM tells you, and he doesnt need to tell you the difficulty, he merely tells you what your actions results were.

 

[Kasparov]

If you remember, Pillars had that option. Literally in the options menu - you could toggle rolls between hidden and visible. NO TRUCE! tries to bring the best bits of tabletop RPG to the digital platform - rolling dice is one of those things. Hold your mouse in your palm, blow on it, and punch the key!

Then display how high you rolled, even in PnP you never know if you succeded or not until the DM tells you, and he doesnt need to tell you the difficulty, he merely tells you what your actions results were.

You know, there are two types of guys: those that wear Speedos to a sauna and those that walk in with their cocks out. We're the guys with our cocks out proud.

Spoiler

To be clear, I'm speaking for the guys on the team *cough*

Spoiler

Well, all we can do is hope that you'll enjoy the system we're providing and we're doing our damnedest to make sure it really is the best we can give you. Also keep in mind that in gamedev nothing is set in stone until you ship it. And even then you can always do a Director's Cut or somesuch and fix it this way or that. Right now you can see what goes into a roll:

 

[Lhynn]

Ive DMed a ton, played a lot of rpgs and CYOAs, and the single best implementation is the one that doesnt disclose either difficulty or if it was a success or failure.

The reason its the best implementation si because it both leaves the option open but doesnt get in the way of the gameplay. Knowing exactly how much you need makes you go the extra mile to get that result (save scuming), not knowing disuades you from doing it, because you simply dont know if it could have gone better or worse.

 

[Kasparov]

Ive DMed a ton, played a lot of rpgs and CYOAs, and the single best implementation is the one that doesnt disclose either difficulty or if it was a success or failure.

They say you shouldn't look down when you're way up on a ledge and you're afraid of heights, but what if you fail that white check and you do look down. Now you're shaking and nervous as hell and to get across you have to pass a red check labeled UNLIKELY. Well, in NO TRUCE! you can look down a ledge before a leap (of faith) and perhaps calm your nerves by having a quick smoke or thinking about your mother. You could feel more confident in your pristine FALN sports shoes that go squee squee as you're stretching before the big jump.

All the different approaches have their own pros and cons. I understand why you prefer that those things are hidden, but so far we've found that the approach, where the player knows what the character is getting into, works best with the kind of experience NO TRUCE! is about.

Spoiler

I just typed up a short essay on the subject, but the tone was questionable (too bristly toward some other cRPGs out there) so instead I'm just going to finish my spiced coffee and turn in for the night with a book.

 

[Lhynn]

If you simply tell me i feel better after having a smoke, if you simply tell me im scared even after mentally preparing myself, then ill tackle whatever comes my way with that in mind.
If the big red numbers tell me i only have a 30% chance of succeding i just mentally prepare myself to reload at least 3 times, and ill redo the dialogues without reading as many times as it takes to make it perfect, because if i didnt i would be willingly losing the game and theres no rational explanation for me to allow myself to lose the game.

The game then goes from paying attention to the narrative to paying attention to the checks. Oh no, i have a 25% chance to succed followed by a 40% chance to succed. If your game loads particularly fast i will just bruteforce it without preparation, because using consumables now hurts my chances later on if i ever need them, and because using them takes time i could instead use reloading.

 

[makiavelli747]

The game then goes from paying attention to the narrative to paying attention to the checks.

Yup, but any dev wants to show his awesome system, not to hide it.

 

[agris]

Electrochemistry

Will we have Nernstian equilibrium in our C&C? Less choice, more consequence? How will you use cylic voltammetry as compared to galvanostatic methods? I assume genitals hooked up to a car battery are a given, so in addition to that.

 

[V_K]

If you simply tell me i feel better after having a smoke, if you simply tell me im scared even after mentally preparing myself, then ill tackle whatever comes my way with that in mind.
If the big red numbers tell me i only have a 30% chance of succeding i just mentally prepare myself to reload at least 3 times, and ill redo the dialogues without reading as many times as it takes to make it perfect, because if i didnt i would be willingly losing the game and theres no rational explanation for me to allow myself to lose the game.

The game then goes from paying attention to the narrative to paying attention to the checks. Oh no, i have a 25% chance to succed followed by a 40% chance to succed. If your game loads particularly fast i will just bruteforce it without preparation, because using consumables now hurts my chances later on if i ever need them, and because using them takes time i could instead use reloading.

Do you reload after every single combat with less than ideal result? And would you prefer to have you hit chance, damage, hit points and the success or failure of your attacks hidden too? If not, why should dialogs - and in a game where dialogs are the primary gameplay element - be any different?

 

[makiavelli747]

why should dialogs - and in a game where dialogs are the primary gameplay element - be any different

It's so obvious...

 

[Lhynn]

Do you reload after every single combat with less than ideal result?

Depends, i usually get ideal results unless theres too much rng. But if i get subpar results, heck yes ill reload, if anyone on the party dies ill reload, if i had to use more resources than i thought the encounter required ill reload, if the enemy gets retardedly lucky i will fucking reload.

And would you prefer to have you hit chance, damage, hit points and the success or failure of your attacks hidden too?

Retarded point to make, you can immediately tell if you hit or miss by the animations, sound effects or description of the action. You dont need to rely on big red letters screaming success!

If not, why should dialogs - and in a game where dialogs are the primary gameplay element - be any different?

Because equating dialog to combat is a very retarded notion born from a sick and stupid mind.

 

[V_K]

Can't help but admire the level of sofistication of arguments in this thread.

 

[Lhynn]

Who cares about using fancy words, argue the point.

 

[makiavelli747]

Can't help but admire the level of sofistication of arguments in this thread.

U r a fucking moron, you was the one who was telling about reloading every time you failed skillcheck in AoD text adventures... You want checks to be visible just to make it easier to savescum.

Telling a player he failed a check and not expecting him to reload is fucking naïve... Devs will destroy their own game just like AoD's devs did with their non-combat gameplay.

 

[V_K]

The difference between AoD and NTwtF, is that in AoD you either had the required skill, or you did not. In NTwtF, if I understood the dev correctly, you can manipulate your chances when presented with a check through in-game mechanics. AoD essentially forces you to save-scum because there's nothing you can do to affect the result other than reload.
My point is, and has always been, that if I'm playing a game with a winning condition, let me play it, not stagger around blindly or LARP retardedly.

 

[makiavelli747]

you can manipulate your chances when presented with a check through in-game mechanics

by reloading?

fucking moron...

that if I'm playing a game with a winning condition, let me play it, not stagger around blindly or LARP retardedly.

you need a fucking compass so you know exactly when you r winning and what exactly to do to win

Snorkacke, suck a dick bitch

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Why not just make visible checks an option?
Players will still get different results depending on the success or failure of a particular roll and lack of success/failure prompt wont stop them from reloading and seeing if they could get better outcome once they understand that there is random chance involved.
People who are going to roll that way are going to do it one way or another.
Such is nature of save scumming beast.

 

[Lhynn]

Why not just make visible checks an option?

For the same reason i dont play while closing my eyes, its the games job to challenge me, and to make it inconvenient for me to cheat or abuse systems. And it has to do it in such a way that i wont resent it for those restrictions (which is why simulationist approachs are usually go great, they allow you restrict the player in organic ways, much like real lyfe does).