No Ti4 Thread. [Meta] Is Codex popamole?

[Ninjerk]

I do follow the tournament and by this point it seems that either EG takes it or its going to Asians again this year. NB showed a lot of power but they make too much mistakes to be considered a sure contender. IG DK NB and EG will fight it out. Perhaps a big come back from C9 or NaVi but I find it unlikely.

I very much like the new meta focused on quick and decisive games instead of that horrible slugfest of a game we had last year. Devastating pushes eliminating heroes like AM and Naga from the meta. Love it. Also Void is in and hes a fun hero to watch.

I don't know, I feel like the professional game has lost some dynamics with these patches. Late game should be an option, not something you only see because one team picked Tinker or Naga. The fact that farming heroes are seemingly useless is a problem. Also, the current patch seems to benefit deathballing too much. Teamfights are fun but strategy and tactics are also fun and "group up as five from 15 minutes on, deward/smoke, hope you stumble upon the other team in an awkward situation" is not an interesting strategy.

http://dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/600/matches?date=&duration=50-&region=

?

Thanks for proving my point. How many of those games involved Tinker or Naga? The only hard carry present in that list who actually won the game was Morphling.

Uh, Lycan was picked more than either, Shadowfiend was picked more than either, Morphling more than both combined, Nature's Prophet was picked more than both combined, Engima was picked more than both combined, and all of the aforementioned heroes had a higher winrate than either one. I feel like there's something to what you're saying with regards to the last sentence quoted (mainly because I don't fully understand what "deathball" is supposed to be, I've just heard it referenced with regards to Necrolyte), but I don't think there's a lack of farming heroes or carries. If you didn't see the matches then I can understand why you would think that. Then again, maybe I'm not fully understanding your point (which is why I engaged in the first place).

 

[abija]

Deathball means you go as 5 and take down towers while the other team can't engage until high ground (and sometimes not even then) because your teamfight is too strong.
It's similar with the starcraft timing push concept, due to different buildups one side might be a lot stronger at a certain time. And if they identify it correctly they can mow down the opponents.

 

[Castanova]

Uh, Lycan was picked more than either, Shadowfiend was picked more than either, Morphling more than both combined, Nature's Prophet was picked more than both combined, Engima was picked more than both combined, and all of the aforementioned heroes had a higher winrate than either one. I feel like there's something to what you're saying with regards to the last sentence quoted (mainly because I don't fully understand what "deathball" is supposed to be, I've just heard it referenced with regards to Necrolyte), but I don't think there's a lack of farming heroes or carries. If you didn't see the matches then I can understand why you would think that. Then again, maybe I'm not fully understanding your point (which is why I engaged in the first place).

Lycan, SF, NP, and Enigma are not hard carries. Like I said, Morphling is the only hard carry being picked frequently who also wins games. Most likely because he's unkillable AND he has early game impact with Waveform AND he can split push.

abija's explanation of the deathball is correct but it makes it sound like there's strategy involved (i.e., picking a timing). My point was that a lot of games are devolving to deathballs not because it's a good strategy but because it's too dangerous and unrewarding to have people going around alone unless they're dedicated split pushers. It would be nice to see two parties of 2-3 heroes achieving things at the same time on different parts of the map but that seems to happen less and less.

 

[Ninjerk]

Uh, Lycan was picked more than either, Shadowfiend was picked more than either, Morphling more than both combined, Nature's Prophet was picked more than both combined, Engima was picked more than both combined, and all of the aforementioned heroes had a higher winrate than either one. I feel like there's something to what you're saying with regards to the last sentence quoted (mainly because I don't fully understand what "deathball" is supposed to be, I've just heard it referenced with regards to Necrolyte), but I don't think there's a lack of farming heroes or carries. If you didn't see the matches then I can understand why you would think that. Then again, maybe I'm not fully understanding your point (which is why I engaged in the first place).

Lycan, SF, NP, and Enigma are not hard carries. Like I said, Morphling is the only hard carry being picked frequently who also wins games. Most likely because he's unkillable AND he has early game impact with Waveform AND he can split push.

abija's explanation of the deathball is correct but it makes it sound like there's strategy involved (i.e., picking a timing). My point was that a lot of games are devolving to deathballs not because it's a good strategy but because it's too dangerous and unrewarding to have people going around alone unless they're dedicated split pushers. It would be nice to see two parties of 2-3 heroes achieving things at the same time on different parts of the map but that seems to happen less and less.

Lycan, SF, NP, and Enigma are farming heroes, are they not?

 

[Damned Registrations]

Fucking christ do they just update dota every time someone wins a game these days? I think I've done like 12 updates in 4 days.

 

[Great Deceiver]

"timed pushes" in the current meta just means get a mek and go as 5. really simplistic.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Fucking christ do they just update dota every time someone wins a game these days? I think I've done like 12 updates in 4 days.

ARE YOU FUCKING SHITTING ME. Twice in one hour.

 

[abija]

"timed pushes" in the current meta just means get a mek and go as 5. really simplistic.

abija's explanation of the deathball is correct but it makes it sound like there's strategy involved (i.e., picking a timing).

Do you seriously believe they just randomly group up and push?

 

[Sensuki]

The chinese deathball push when their coach tells them to.

 

[Ninjerk]

Fucking christ do they just update dota every time someone wins a game these days? I think I've done like 12 updates in 4 days.

ARE YOU FUCKING SHITTING ME. Twice in one hour.

DONT U WANT TO LOOK AT THE CHESTS

 

[Malakal]

Frankly if a team is worried about deathpushes it can easily counter pick. KOTL is one of the heroes that single handedly stops any push up to a certain point unless perhaps Shadow Shaman DP or Veno are involved.

For me recent deathballs were mainly one team not understanding whats going to happen and not counter picking correctly.

 

[Castanova]

Lycan, SF, NP, and Enigma are farming heroes, are they not?

Sure but that doesn't make them hard carries. All of those heroes want to start making a serious game impact ~10 minutes into the game.

 

[abija]

Maybe you should provide a list of what you consider hard carry because it seems terribly restrictive if you only see morph in those games. And how exactly is Morph a hard carry and NP not?

 

[Malakal]

Tiny is a hard carry, one of the hardest in the game, and hes a very common pick with wisp. Void also is a hard carry and a common pick but most often not played in a primary role.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Hard carries are heroes who become godlike in the endgame with tons of farm. Morph qualifies (despite his total lack of steroids or passives) due mostly to his insane mobility and stat pooling into obscene amounts of agi. In a ~50 minute game, Morph would destroy those other heroes effortlessly. On the other hand, things like treants or wolves or howl or eidolons become pretty trivial that late.

Has anyone been drafting troll warlord? You'd think he'd suit early 5 manning perfectly, between his AoE damage and the insane dps boost his ult gives a team.

 

[Ninjerk]

Hard carries are heroes who become godlike in the endgame with tons of farm. Morph qualifies (despite his total lack of steroids or passives) due mostly to his insane mobility and stat pooling into obscene amounts of agi. In a ~50 minute game, Morph would destroy those other heroes effortlessly. On the other hand, things like treants or wolves or howl or eidolons become pretty trivial that late.

Has anyone been drafting troll warlord? You'd think he'd suit early 5 manning perfectly, between his AoE damage and the insane dps boost his ult gives a team.

Pros or us? I have been playing sparingly since TI4 qualifiers, but DK drafted Troll with, I think, Skywrath Mage and 3 other melees (including Sven) and did disgusting things to whomever they drafted it against.

EDIT: I think it's http://dotabuff.com/matches/769123500

 

[Whiran]

Fucking christ do they just update dota every time someone wins a game these days? I think I've done like 12 updates in 4 days.

The updates are the graphic assets going into the game from the Tournament Compendium and updates thereof.

I watched a few of the matches and will be watching the rest of the tournament as time permits - from within the Dota 2 client.

It's kinda funny, I don't actually play dota 2. I just watch the International each year.

 

[Malakal]

Fucking christ do they just update dota every time someone wins a game these days? I think I've done like 12 updates in 4 days.

The updates are the graphic assets going into the game from the Tournament Compendium and updates thereof.

I watched a few of the matches and will be watching the rest of the tournament as time permits - from within the Dota 2 client.

It's kinda funny, I don't actually play dota 2. I just watch the International each year.

Its not that strange since watching pros play is often more enjoyable than playing russian infested pub games. Even if it becomes painfully obvious when pros make mistakes when you become experienced.

 

[Castanova]

Maybe you should provide a list of what you consider hard carry because it seems terribly restrictive if you only see morph in those games. And how exactly is Morph a hard carry and NP not?

I didn't say Morphling was the only hard carry in those games -- I said he was the only one winning. Other hard carries... AM, PL, Gyro, Medusa, Spectre...

 

[Ninjerk]

Maybe you should provide a list of what you consider hard carry because it seems terribly restrictive if you only see morph in those games. And how exactly is Morph a hard carry and NP not?

I didn't say Morphling was the only hard carry in those games -- I said he was the only one winning. Other hard carries... AM, PL, Gyro, Medusa, Spectre...

I'd love to see AM, PL, and Spectre at least winning games, but I'm not lacking for entertainment, personally.

 

[Malakal]

AM, PL etc arent viable because 4 protect 1 isnt really viable. Also Skywrath Mage makes mincemeat out of AM - his ancient seal just rapes what little survival AM has.

Other than that I dont see how watching AM, PL etc was fun in any way.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I just wish there were more decent casters for the games. Even if the insights are wrong, I still like having some commentary on the game, it makes things interesting and gives you more stuff to consider.

Of course, most casters are utter shit. Tobiwan in particular is like a fucking human vuvuzela. He should be outlawed.

 

[Malakal]

I really like the sound of Aysee voice but he knows nothing about the game. Maelk knows a lot and sounds nicely so hes ok. Tobi is awful and so are all women casters (Lily, Sheever). Merlini, LD, Syndereen are fine too.

Out of all casters I only miss Aysee on TI4.

 

[abija]

I didn't say Morphling was the only hard carry in those games -- I said he was the only one winning. Other hard carries... AM, PL, Gyro, Medusa, Spectre...

Yeah but the list had also tiny, naga, drow, weaver, void, dk, ember and even a hard carry wraith king winning.

Regarding casters, maybe they should try 2 "analysts" instead of caster + analyst. I prefer synd, draskyl, maelk, merlini or some of the players much more than the casters.
As for ayesee... unless this isn't his main job he has no excuse for knowing so little about the game.

 

[Damned Registrations]

It really is bizarre when you hear a caster say something blatantly wrong about mechanics or something. It's one thing to be a bad player/have bad judgement, but having outright bad knowledge of the game makes no sense. You can pick that up without even playing.