Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Nioh: Feudal Era Dark Souls

Hyperion

Arcane
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
The fact you're even comparing Ninja Gaiden Black and its sequels to the Soulsbornes shows how little you understand either series. Demon's Souls is a spiritual successor to King's Field, which was a first-person, real-time RPG. It was extremely slow and methodical. Souls just changed the perspective and improved the controls. It focused less on combat, and almost solely on the lore of its characters, locations, and events. Even comparing it to the Elder Scrolls game would be more logical than Ninja Gaiden. But, since Souls fucking obliterates TES you aren't going to mention that because it would defeat the purpose of your shitty argument - trying to convince yourself you haven't missed anything in not playing DeS and BB. As for Sully, his opinion is just horribly misinformed on pretty much every game he's played here.

If you're going to compare NGB to something, it should be the original Devil May Cry or Bayonetta. Maybe NieR as well, but NieR had quite a few RPG qualities to it that its combat took an (unfortunate) backseat.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
The fact you're even comparing Ninja Gaiden Black and its sequels to the Soulsbornes shows how little you understand either series. Demon's Souls is a spiritual successor to King's Field, which was a first-person, real-time RPG. It was extremely slow and methodical. Souls just changed the perspective and improved the controls. It focused less on combat, and almost solely on the lore of its characters, locations, and events. Even comparing it to the Elder Scrolls game would be more logical than Ninja Gaiden.

Yes, everyone and their brother knows that the souls series is a "spiritual successor" to Kings Field. Except that it's not, according to Miyazaki. Quite frankly it's insane to compare the combat in a first person RPG to third person lock-on combat. It's more than changing the perspective and improving the controls, it's a totally different genre.

But, since Souls fucking obliterates TES you aren't going to mention that because it would defeat the purpose of your shitty argument - trying to convince yourself you haven't missed anything in not playing DeS and BB. As for Sully, his opinion is just horribly misinformed on pretty much every game he's played here.

Not particularly relevant, but I've been playing the series since Demons' Souls came out on PS3 in 2009. In fact I bought a PS3 to play it. They are probably my favorite games ever and I love them to pieces. Definitely more than Ninja Gaiden. But that doesn't change the fact that their combat is lock on combat and in 2009, anyone who was designing a game with that kind of combat had to reckon with Ninja Gaiden.

If you're going to compare NGB to something, it should be the original Devil May Cry or Bayonetta. Maybe NieR as well, but NieR had quite a few RPG qualities to it that its combat took an (unfortunate) backseat.

These are better comparisons to Ninja Gaiden than your asinine comparison of the elder scrolls to DS, particularly in the focus on combos and "style" (except Nier) but that they share some characteristics has no bearing on whether Ninja Gaiden and the souls games also share characteristics. And I would argue that the combat is actually fairly different between them.
 

Declinator

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
542
Demon's Souls was basically remixing what Ninja Gaiden perfected.
The Souls games are far more like Severance Blade of Darkness than Ninja Gaiden and Severance was released way back in 2001 so if anything it is "remixing" what Severance did.

Even comparing it to the Elder Scrolls game would be more logical than Ninja Gaiden.
This is a ridiculous statement.
 

Hyperion

Arcane
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
Honestly I don't even bother looking at who says what when they're bitching about Souls combat, since every clown parrots the same tired bullshit. I thought you were the dude crying about DeS and BB not being on PC. But it changes nothing about your argument being dogshit.

The Souls-TES analogy was SUPPOSED to be asinine, because it's to show how fucking retarded yours is. Comparing two games because you can lock onto targets is like comparing Fallout and Call of Duty because you get weapons with bullets in them.

The closest possible analogy to Souls combat would be Zelda. Would you compare Zelda and Ninja Gaiden? Of fucking course not.
 
Last edited:

sullynathan

Arcane
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
6,473
Location
Not Europe
The fact you're even comparing Ninja Gaiden Black and its sequels to the Soulsbornes shows how little you understand either series. Demon's Souls is a spiritual successor to King's Field, which was a first-person, real-time RPG. It was extremely slow and methodical. Souls just changed the perspective and improved the controls. It focused less on combat, and almost solely on the lore of its characters, locations, and events. Even comparing it to the Elder Scrolls game would be more logical than Ninja Gaiden. But, since Souls fucking obliterates TES you aren't going to mention that because it would defeat the purpose of your shitty argument - trying to convince yourself you haven't missed anything in not playing DeS and BB. As for Sully, his opinion is just horribly misinformed on pretty much every game he's played here.

If you're going to compare NGB to something, it should be the original Devil May Cry or Bayonetta. Maybe NieR as well, but NieR had quite a few RPG qualities to it that its combat took an (unfortunate) backseat.
no you're retarded. I'm not comparing them, i'm correcting that guy for thinking Team Ninja was just known as a company that makes soft core porn games before NiOh, even though Team Ninja made Ninja Gaiden
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
Demon's Souls was basically remixing what Ninja Gaiden perfected.
The Souls games are far more like Severance Blade of Darkness than Ninja Gaiden and Severance was released way back in 2001 so if anything it is "remixing" what Severance did.

I have never played Severance, but looking at gameplay videos I can see why you draw the comparison. However, my point was narrowly focused the combat itself. While there are similarities between the two, it's not clear to me whether the combat is in fact lock-on or not and it appears that there is animation canceling, the omission of which is IMO one of the most important features of *souls combat.

Either way though, as that game appears to have sold poorly and to be a PC release with no Japanese release, the chances that it influenced Demons' Souls is very low (although still possible). By contrast, the Ninja Gaiden games were very successful and had the Sigma edition and/or Ninja Gaiden 2 released shortly before and during the development of Demons' Souls. Any console action game developer, let alone one thinking of using lock-on combat, would not only have been highly likely to be thinking of how their gameplay would stand in comparison, they would have been negligent if they failed to do so.

Given it's popularity and acclaim, I'm sure the developers of Demons' Souls would also have considered where they stood in relation to DMC, but since I didn't play any of those games beyond the first, I can't really confidently evaluate whether or not it was an influence. (Bayonetta was released after Demons' Souls, so the chances it was an influence are...low)

The closest possible analogy to Souls combat would be Zelda. Would you compare Zelda and Ninja Gaiden? Of fucking course not.

Except that Ocarina of Time popularized, possibly even originated, wait for it...lock-on combat. (I know it was the first place I encountered it and I was blown away by it at the time, but I'm not confident in stating authoritatively that no one did it before [and you could possibly draw a connection between virtua fighter and z-targeting]). So while the two games are very different overall, there is a line that can be drawn between their combat mechanics, which my argument was focused on.

Incidentally, although it perhaps could have been clearer, my argument was no more or less this: it is unfair to accuse Team ninja of ripping off *souls combat, because Ninja Gaiden was a seminal work in the genre in which souls combat may be placed.

You can certainly argue over the degree of similarities (certainly as time has progressed they have developed their own particular characteristics and made free camera more important to optimal play) and whether the souls games are better, but I think that a claim that there are connections between Ninja Gaiden and Demons' Souls combat seems like it should be uncontroversial.
 

Declinator

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
542
Demon's Souls was basically remixing what Ninja Gaiden perfected.
The Souls games are far more like Severance Blade of Darkness than Ninja Gaiden and Severance was released way back in 2001 so if anything it is "remixing" what Severance did.

I have never played Severance, but looking at gameplay videos I can see why you draw the comparison. However, my point was narrowly focused the combat itself. While there are similarities between the two, it's not clear to me whether the combat is in fact lock-on or not and it appears that there is animation canceling, the omission of which is IMO one of the most important features of *souls combat.

Either way though, as that game appears to have sold poorly and to be a PC release with no Japanese release, the chances that it influenced Demons' Souls is very low (although still possible). By contrast, the Ninja Gaiden games were very successful and had the Sigma edition and/or Ninja Gaiden 2 released shortly before and during the development of Demons' Souls. Any console action game developer, let alone one thinking of using lock-on combat, would not only have been highly likely to be thinking of how their gameplay would stand in comparison, they would have been negligent if they failed to do so.
But Souls combat shares few central characteristics with Ninja Gaiden. You seem to focus entirely on lock-on but Ninja Gaiden didn't have stamina and it didn't have particularly weighty weapons, both of which are less ubiquitous than lock-on but still just as, if not more, defining aspects of Souls combat. Jumping and special key combination moves are also central in Ninja Gaiden and Souls has neither.

Nioh on the other is very similar to Souls games right down to the lower left corner equipment switch UI element. It is obvious that is heavily inspired by Souls games to say the least.

If looking for popular console games released in Japan which Souls games could have drawn inspiration from then Monster Hunter seems a likelier suspect than NG what with its stamina system and weapons that have wildly varying weight. On the other hand it doesn't have your lock-on so it does not count :roll:
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
Demon's Souls was basically remixing what Ninja Gaiden perfected.
The Souls games are far more like Severance Blade of Darkness than Ninja Gaiden and Severance was released way back in 2001 so if anything it is "remixing" what Severance did.

I have never played Severance, but looking at gameplay videos I can see why you draw the comparison. However, my point was narrowly focused the combat itself. While there are similarities between the two, it's not clear to me whether the combat is in fact lock-on or not and it appears that there is animation canceling, the omission of which is IMO one of the most important features of *souls combat.

Either way though, as that game appears to have sold poorly and to be a PC release with no Japanese release, the chances that it influenced Demons' Souls is very low (although still possible). By contrast, the Ninja Gaiden games were very successful and had the Sigma edition and/or Ninja Gaiden 2 released shortly before and during the development of Demons' Souls. Any console action game developer, let alone one thinking of using lock-on combat, would not only have been highly likely to be thinking of how their gameplay would stand in comparison, they would have been negligent if they failed to do so.
But Souls combat shares few central characteristics with Ninja Gaiden. You seem to focus entirely on lock-on but Ninja Gaiden didn't have stamina and it didn't have particularly weighty weapons, both of which are less ubiquitous than lock-on but still just as, if not more, defining aspects of Souls combat. Jumping and special key combination moves are also central in Ninja Gaiden and Souls has neither.

Nioh on the other is very similar to Souls games right down to the lower left corner equipment switch UI element. It is obvious that is heavily inspired by Souls games to say the least.

If looking for popular console games released in Japan which Souls games could have drawn inspiration from then Monster Hunter seems a likelier suspect than NG what with its stamina system and weapons that have wildly varying weight. On the other hand it doesn't have your lock-on so it does not count :roll:

Ah yes, the eyeroll emoji, quite an effective refutation - now I am thoroughly convinced ;). Monster Hunter could certainly have been an influence, games can have more than one! (although its combat looks very imprecise and "floaty" [for lack of a better term]).

You mock my focus on lock-on, but the presence and degree of lock-on (i.e., camera lock vs just targeting lock, whether its automatic or under player control, etc.) used in the game has a dramatic effect on gameplay in the way it affects how blocking and dodging function, the relative importance of positioning and timing, the importance of situational awareness and, often, whether combat with groups consists of a wild melee or a series of overlapping/alternating duels (which in turn can affect encounter design).

Additionally, while I have focused on lock-on, I have mentioned the importance of animation canceling to the souls experience, especially when combined with relatively slow weapon speeds. The forced vulnerability of that weapon animation is as important as the stamina limitation for forcing you to make good decisions. (also animation canceling, camera lock (vs aim lock) and the defense oriented rhythm is also something separates both Ninja Gaiden and the souls series from more chaotic brawl oriented combat of games like DMC, God of War etc).

What this adds up to is a comparable combat loop of defending to await a vulnerability, then attacking until the window closes and returning to a default defensive posture, all of this while maintaining wariness about what non-targeted enemies are poised to do in your blindside. Of course my opinion is also based on various kinesthetic parallels I feel in the gameplay that are difficult to describe and highly subjective anyway, so I've avoided mentioning them. But if they are not shared, I can understand why what I'm saying sounds absurd.

Certainly there are very significant differences, with the jumping and acrobatic nature of Ninja Gaiden that you identify being possibly the most dramatic one. This coupled with the overall speed of combat leads the games to feel very different despite overlapping mechanics.

The combo issue is significant, but not black and white: you can play through Ninja Gaiden without mastering combos as long as you have a few combos you can rely on as long as you have mastered the block/counterattack loop. Similarly, while you do not need to do so, if you want to play optimally with some of the lighter weapons in Souls games you do need to master their (simpler) combos. Weapon weight differences are, in my a opinion, partially a distinct feature of souls, partially a result of Ninja Gaiden having a much higher speed overall, as dabilahro and the hammer, for example are relatively slow and heavy, but still much faster than souls game heavy weapons.

Also, I did not argue that Nioh was not heavily inspired by the Souls games; it clearly is. Their success has rendered them the elephant in the room for anyone designing an action game of the sort, just as Ninja Gaiden was prominent when Demons' Souls was being designed. Again, my argument is simply that combat in souls and combat in Ninja Gaiden share DNA, not that the Souls games have no other influences or that Nioh is not influenced by the Souls games.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
There's nothing wrong with Souls combat in general; it's rather simplistic and focused on breadth of options rather than depth, but it works well with all the other elements. The problem is that after DS1, From decided to focus excessively on combat and slowly streamlined away everything that made the whole package compelling, without improving the combat mechanics to compensate. And when they did try to change things up in Bloodborne, the changes were half-assed and didn't mesh well with the core principles underlying the system.

Nioh is a good point of comparison, because it shows the system can actually be improved without losing its identity. For example, Bloodborne adds the rally mechanic which is supposed to encourage aggression according to fanboys, but what it really encourages is dumb R1 spamming whenever you get hit. Meanwhile, Ki Pulse on Dodge in Nioh is an example of a mechanic that actually supports aggressive play while still demanding precision and good timing. In fact, if you're good enough in Nioh, you can actually attack non-stop by abusing Flux, but it's mechanically intensive and requires a good command of the combat system and controls.
 
Last edited:

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
I searcjed for DS3 thread, and stambled upon this.
So, this Nioh is a better or at least comparable with DC series?
Just never heard of it.
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
About the 100GB storage requirement and graphic options: http://wccftech.com/nioh-complete-edition-pc-isnt-locked/

In addition to the main game, we’re including the three additional DLC packages. Taking into consideration the data compression rate and allowing some buffer, we’ve currently announced 100GB. Upon release, we are aiming to have the game run using less hard drive space and will announce the details ahead of launch.

We introduced these two modes as pre-set graphical options. This means that the resolution, rendering quality and framerates are independent options that can be altered by the player.
 

Hyperion

Arcane
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
Nue's a cunt for sure, he can't be infinitely stunlocked like alot of enemies. And because of the Lightning recovery you have to play it safe and not get greedy.

Usually I bait out the Lightning breath, high stance blast him in the chops to deplete his Ki, then Water Sword until he's about to get back up, then either bail out or pop Living Weapon right as he recovers if it's up. With luck he's usually dead by the end of it. Unfortunately I use Kara-Jishi as my Spirit so he's not too effective, but the damage immunity is nice while LW is active. Kato is a good alternative, even if Fire is a shitty element.

Edit: Never stand directly behind Nue because he'll tail whip you, and it's probably the fastest attack in the game, with bat cunt's paralyze wave. About 45 degrees to the left or right of his face is best, so you can easily dodge his claw swipes, and poison or lightning breath. Just make sure to stay mobile in case he summons those 4 lightning strikes. Defaulting to low stance for quick dodges is best.
 
Last edited:

Somberlain

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
6,202
Location
Basement
I thought Nue was pretty easy tbh. That might be because you fight him multiple times throughout the game.

His only dangerous attack is those lightning bolts that strike from the sky repeatedly but those will always hit behind you if you keep moving in the same direction. All his attacks have very clear wind-up animations so it's easy to back away and strike back afterwards. Just stay behind him, watch those lightning bolts (there's four of them IIRC) and be patient.

I should also point out that I used fast ninja build and spent 80% of the game in low stance so mobility might be the key to making this fight easy.
 

flyingjohn

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
2,945
i hope i can play this at low 720p at stable 30 or 60 fps.
Who am i kidding.
:negative:
 

cruel

Cipher
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
856
Can I assume that Umi Bozu is the shittiest boss in the game, and everything after him will be better? Whoever created this fight should be hanged immediately. I'm probably at more than 30 tries right now, totally bored with this fight, mixing dying between his OHKO Slam, 4500 damage from OHKO laser, falling to the hole or something else. Torches are lighted of course.

This is so annoying when you are actually interested to see what game has to offer in next level, but you're stuck on some tedious piece of sh** like this.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,871
How much is this gonna cost? Price isn't available yet.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom