New Total War game: Warhammer

[ohWOW]

You will research bolters to equip your 10000 space marines and then got mowed down by some orcs because they had high ground.

 

[Captain Shrek]

You will research bolters to equip your 10000 space marines and then got mowed down by some orcs because they had high ground.

o_O

 

[tuluse]

I'm mildly excited for this.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Something like this mod for MTW2:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=533167

Only 10 time more Gay cause made by profesiunals.

 

[Misconnected]

That's odd, because MTW2 +Kingdoms was/is probably the best TW game they have ever made. <snipped stuffs>

You really think so? I agree it's the huge RTS battles that are the draw, but IMO they played better in Rome. Mostly because battlefields were much more open, which led to a lot less "Ima huntin all ya unitses down wiv me one sneaksily placed regiment" silliness.

- Obviously talking single player here.

I'd prefer an Warhammer RTS by the King Arthur guys but this is ok. Shogun 2 was alright.

Too bad we won't get mod tools.

Uhm... The King Arthur guys have made 4 games with Total War style RTS battles now (that I know of and have played), and every single one of them have utter shit for combat mechanics compared to the TW games. It's not entirely unfair to say the KA approach is to RTS'ify boardgame mechanics, while the TW approach is to try to simulate battles in real time. And surprise! The latter is both much more intuitive and much more ... I'll call it tactile, for lack of a better word.

Of course, there's also the thing with the bugs. TW is hardly the gold standard here, but of the 4 TW-likes the KA guys have made so far, only one was in any kind of playable state at release, and at least two of them have never been patched to playability.

Already have Mark of Chaos, a majestic total war clone that is unmatched in quality.

I assume you're trolling, but in a way I kind of agree. TWs Grand Strategy layer has always been at odds with the RTS layer; if you do well on one, the other turns into boring shit.

I'd like something far more open-ended and branching than Shadow of The Horned Rat, which MoC is a pale imitation of, but I'm really not at all sure a genuine Grand Strategy layer is a good fit for a mega-scale RTS. I certainly haven't seen it done well yet. Though I guess I should note that I haven't played Shogun 2 (have played all the others though).

 

[groke]

I'd prefer an Warhammer RTS by the King Arthur guys but this is ok. Shogun 2 was alright.

Too bad we won't get mod tools.

Uhm... The King Arthur guys have made 4 games with Total War style RTS battles now (that I know of and have played), and every single one of them have utter shit for combat mechanics compared to the TW games. It's not entirely unfair to say the KA approach is to RTS'ify boardgame mechanics, while the TW approach is to try to simulate battles in real time. And surprise! The latter is both much more intuitive and much more ... I'll call it tactile, for lack of a better word.

But Warhammer is a fucking boardgame!

 

[waywardOne]

More like boredgame.

 

[Misconnected]

But Warhammer is a fucking boardgame!

I'd love a faithful video game version of the tabletop wargame (which isn't actually a boardgame, but whatever). However this is presumably going to be a Total War-like game. I can't imagine why the hell you'd want some half-assed RTS'ified version of a TB tabletop wargame system, when you can have a decent realtime simulation of the combat instead.

 

[hoverdog]

But Warhammer is a fucking boardgame!

I'd love a faithful video game version of the tabletop wargame (which isn't actually a boardgame, but whatever). However this is presumably going to be a Total War-like game. I can't imagine why the hell you'd want some half-assed RTS'ified version of a TB tabletop wargame system, when you can have a decent realtime simulation of the combat instead.

Shadow of the Hornet Rat. Dark Omen.

/thread

 

[MetalCraze]

I'd prefer an Warhammer RTS by the King Arthur guys but this is ok.

Yes King Arthur 2 was not a total dumbed down shit, oh no

 

[groke]

I'd prefer an Warhammer RTS by the King Arthur guys but this is ok.

Yes King Arthur 2 was not a total dumbed down shit, oh no

I have not played it, but the first one had a really strong Dark Omen vibe for me.

 

[Misconnected]

Shadow of the Hornet Rat. Dark Omen.

/thread

I'm unsure if you're just randomly dropping names, of it you're seriously implying SoTHR would have been worse if it had approached its battle mechanics like TW does. If it's the latter though, I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree.

SoTHR's RTS'ified WFB3e mechanics caused lots of weird shit. The whole Winds of Magic thing was craptastic. The morale system didn't work at all well for the lengthy battles. The formation system was overly abstracted to the point that it often had completely counter-intuitive effects in play...

TW doesn't do magic obviously, but otherwise it accounts for all the same stuff. If you're serious about the SoTHR approach being better, I encourage you to play a couple of battles of each, back to back. Because I strongly suspect nostalgia is severely fucking with your perception.

 

[Haba]

As much as I liked SoTHR, it had very little in common with WHFB ruleset. Setting and flavour, sure. Mechanics? Uh no.

So the big choice there is: do you want to play a Warhammer game, or do you want to play a game in Warhammer setting?

For most, it seems to be the latter. And in that case, I'd say it is for the best if you do your own thing instead of trying to make some kind of a bastardization of the both your ideas and the original wargame ruleset. I think a Myth -game with Warhammer flavouring would be perfectly acceptable, for example.

(I have to be realist, I'll never live to see the day when someone makes an actual accurate translation of the wargame into a PC game)

 

[Metro]

So, slightly on/off topic: why do people spooge over Relic and Dawn of War? Granted I know these are intended to be multiplayer games but playing through 60% of the Dawn of War Campaign the mechanics are very shallow and the possible strategies are extremely limited. It is a total regression from Warcraft 3 (which predates it by three years) in every way imaginable.

Maybe the other races (aside from human) are more complex? Grand total of two resources? Standard build orders/base units. Pretty much no counters aside from 'strong against vehicle/buildings' or 'strong against infantry.' You have separate unit caps for infantry and units so you just mass some of each and face roll on to opposing units. Seems like RTS games have been in ever since 2004 or so which is why I haven't bought one since.

 

[Dead Guy]

So, slightly on/off topic: why do people spooge over Relic and Dawn of War? Granted I know these are intended to be multiplayer games but playing through 60% of the Dawn of War Campaign the mechanics are very shallow and the possible strategies are extremely limited. It is a total regression from Warcraft 3 (which predates it by three years) in every way imaginable.

Maybe the other races (aside from human) are more complex? Grand total of two resources? Standard build orders/base units. Pretty much no counters aside from 'strong against vehicle/buildings' or 'strong against infantry.' You have separate unit caps for infantry and units so you just mass some of each and face roll on to opposing units. Seems like RTS games have been in ever since 2004 or so which is why I haven't bought one since.

Never understood that either, for precisely those reasons. Many of my friends liked it just because it was 40k. Granted I only played the first game.

 

[tuluse]

Warcraft 3 only has gold and wood as resources right?

Anyways, here's some reasons.

1) There are a ton of reasonably balanced races.

2) Removing units from carry resources was interesting twist and made battlefields more dynamic

3) In addition to vehicle/building damages there is also melee vs ranged and moral damage

4) The squad mechanics are interesting and the ability to reinforce on the fly also added to the new resource gathering

The only thing more mechanically interesting about War3 is the hero units.

 

[Metro]

Aside from the hero units many of the WC3 units actually had active abilities that added more micro to the game. Slow, polymorph, bloodlust, purge, healing wards, cripple, summoning, etc. Similarly those units had mana so that acted as a micro resource. Dawn of War doesn't even come close to WC3 as far as the units go. Perhaps one of the expansions added some depth but it's certainly not in the base game. The squad mechanics aren't really interesting at all -- the reinforce is just a proxy for a health bar and is completely undermined by the overall lack of unit variety.

As far as balanced races, I can't say as I haven't delved into skirmish... if they're significantly different than humans, so be it, although WC3 had four 'reasonably' balanced races, too, so I'm not sure how that's an advantage over it. Regarding damage type WC3 had three armor types (normal, heavy, and unarmored...) four if you count siege and multiple damage types. So yeah not seeing how games like DoW progressed the RTS genre at all. Not that I've played DoW2 but a friend of mine said they even removed base building from it. I know base building is pretty much gone from a lot of modern RTS games, too, but I don't know where the trend started.

 

[tuluse]

DOW2 is something else entirely. It's much more focuses on small battles for better or worse (worse imo, but some people love it).

I assume by "humans" you mean Space Marines? They are the least interesting race to play. It's basically a tutorial race to learn the basics.

Some units do have active abilities. There are jump packs, teleports, big ass guns, etc. I haven't really played the game in a couple years so I don't remember everything.

the reinforce is just a proxy for a health bar and is completely undermined by the overall lack of unit variety.

As you lose men, you also lose firepower and morale. Reinforcing does increase morale. So no it's not just a proxy for health.

A fully expanded DoW has 7 races I believe, and that was one of the draws the high number of races to play.

Also, the game is not as strategically deep as War3, I didn't mean to imply that. However, it's not because of lack of mechanics to make it so. The mechanics are all there, they're just not all implemented well.

Finally, War3 was really just evolutionary for RTSes. It built on past ideas and took them further. DoW was more experimental. Some of their ideas didn't work out as well. I won't argue that.

 

[Misconnected]

As much as I liked SoTHR, it had very little in common with WHFB ruleset. Setting and flavour, sure. Mechanics? Uh no.

On the contrary. SoTHR uses a modified version of the WFB3e rules, complete with WFB3e stat lines and whatnot.

 

[groke]

As much as I liked SoTHR, it had very little in common with WHFB ruleset. Setting and flavour, sure. Mechanics? Uh no.

On the contrary. SoTHR uses a modified version of the WFB4e rules, complete with WFB4e stat lines and whatnot.

Fixed.

 

[Kem0sabe]

I have little hope this will work out, unless they release some serious mod support, no way CA can capture the absurdity that is WH on their own merrits.

 

[Misconnected]

As much as I liked SoTHR, it had very little in common with WHFB ruleset. Setting and flavour, sure. Mechanics? Uh no.

On the contrary. SoTHR uses a modified version of the WFB4e rules, complete with WFB4e stat lines and whatnot.

Fixed.

I could have sworn... Nice catch.

Would fist if I could?

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

This is how it's gonna be.et

Empire, Warriors of Chaos, High Elves and Orcs will be in the game, which will be a bug-ridden piece of shit with bad battle AI and even more retarded campaign AI. Modding support will be non-existant because how else are they gonna sell the rest of the races as DLC?

And what's even worse I bet the Skaven won't have jewish accents.

 

[kris]

I am not to worried about the game ending up being bugged or the AI being worse than before. I think it will be about as competent as in Shogun2. But I am more akin to believe that it will be more like a reskin of their other games and just play like them, but with different models.

Otherwise I could come up with some ideas for things that they could add in the game... Only real difference I know they will add is the magic, that will be a new venture for them.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

Truth be told, I am expecting the game to be more of a RPG-ish Total War, kinda like Mark of Chaos only with massive battles and actual economic/diplomatic development. Especially some court intrigue within the Empire (Electors 'lectoring etc) would be very welcome.

And yeah, sorcerers, depending on faction, should be some very rare, very expensive and small in number unit that can nuke enemy formations from across the field. Massive lightshows in the sky during sorcerer on sorcerer combat are also a must.