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Incline NEO Scavenger: A Post-Apocalyptic Survival RPG
- Thread starter Ebola1717
- Start date
dcfedor
Blue Bottle Games
"Refreshing" and "ragequit" in the same sentence? That might be a first 
Glad to hear you're enjoying it!
Re: hotkeys and UI tweaks, I think this is probably the single most often cited problem with the game. The UI has evolved to be better over time, but obviously still has a ways to go. I have some things on my list which might help, and hopefully we can iron out the rough spots.
Re: having supernatural elements in the game, that's kind of a big deal for me, so I should be up-front about that. I played a lot of Rifts and Shadowrun back in the day, and enjoyed the mix of magic and tech in Arcanum, so I'll probably be steering a similar course in NEO Scavenger. Admittedly, Rifts went pretty bonkers with some ideas (Shadowrun too), so I'm hoping to keep a steadier hand in that regard.
Some examples of supernatural which might be closer fits include X-Files and Mage: The Ascension. Worlds where weird things exist, but are often rationalized away with science (or insanity).
I realize some folks prefer a more "The Road" experience, so one thing I'm considering is opening up the game to modding in the future. Perhaps if I can expose the game data in the right ways, folks can edit out the supernatural elements, or tweak the setting in other ways to suit their play style.
Re: hideouts and properties, that's sort of the thrust of the campsite feature that I added a while back. Each hex can have up to 5 different "sites" for stashing stuff and taking shelter. They provide variable amounts of concealment, shelter, restfulness, and healing rates (e.g. sleeping in an open field makes it harder to recuperate than in an apartment building). The latest build also features the ability to repair some tech in the cryo facility for heat and light. There's more that could be done, to be sure, but there are a few hooks like that already in there. (Note: some of those stat ratings are not visible to the player unless they have an appropriate skill, such as hiding->concealment).
Re: durability of items, it's mainly a measure of the items' remaining usable lifetime. Shoes with a low durability will fall apart sooner than a pair with higher durability. Repairing the damaged items is something that may come with the crafting update, once that's reached on the feature voting (more plot and bigger font/resolution are voted to the top right now). Also, you're right that NPCs should start with weathered items. That they don't isn't a design decision as much as a system I haven't had time to write yet
Re: companions and NPC packs, this is a tricky bit. I think it's unlikely that players will have companions in NEO Scavenger version 1. I'm having trouble keeping up with the systems I've added already, so adding more party members seems like biting off more than I can chew. If I reach a point where the other systems are mature enough and run smoothly, I may consider it (I really like the idea, mind you, I'm just trying to be realistic about my own capabilities).
NPC packs of 2 or more are something I'll probably add to v1, though. I may not be able to dedicate a lot of time to pack tactics and AI, but at least I can make certain NPC types appear in more logical numbers than 1. I'd also like NPCs to appear in more logical places and times. E.g. the dogman isn't meant to be everywhere in Michigan, but rather a more regional (and rare) encounter. I just have so few creatures to work with that I include them all, everywhere for now.
Finally, NPC spawns are tricky too. I totally agree that games are more fun when NPCs don't magically appear (random world encounters bothered me in other games, since I wanted to be able to outmaneuver them, or lay a trap). However, populating the world with creatures means the player must wait for AI to move each turn, which can really bog down the processor. Whenever I've tried it, my turns were taking too long to process, and it felt like I was always watching an hourglass.
Also, the population had a tendency to trend towards zero over time (dogmen vs. raiders vs. looters vs. bandits). With 50 or 100, this drops NPC encounters down to rare or never on the current map size. Realistic populations (e.g. 1000s or more) would help solve this, but would kill the CPU.
So as a compromise, I try to spawn NPCs at the periphery of the player's view range. When walking the map, the player may reveal a hex with a creature, and it will seem like they were always there. Plus, if the player flees many NPCs in a small area, they pile up and eventually kill each other off, keeping the turn processing time in check.
Scavenging, on the other hand, pops a creature into the current hex. My rationale here was that the player was busy inside, looting cabinets or drawers, and something was attracted by the activity. It seemed likely that the threat would be close by the time it was detected (i.e. the random combat starting range, usually beyond melee, but within rifle range).
I figured that scavenging was a rewarding process, and needed an appropriate risk to balance it. Accidents are one, as is time expenditure, but hostiles seemed more immedaite a threat. But this system may be too simplistic, or hand-wavy.
Overall, I'm open to suggestions for change, though I usually try to wait until I can see the system working in my head, and how it ties into existing parts. Completely new systems take weeks to design, and often weeks again to write and bug-fix, so I try to look for systems that bridge existing pieces as much as possible.
As always, thanks for the feedback and encouragement. There's always good info to be had here!
Glad to hear you're enjoying it!Re: hotkeys and UI tweaks, I think this is probably the single most often cited problem with the game. The UI has evolved to be better over time, but obviously still has a ways to go. I have some things on my list which might help, and hopefully we can iron out the rough spots.
Re: having supernatural elements in the game, that's kind of a big deal for me, so I should be up-front about that. I played a lot of Rifts and Shadowrun back in the day, and enjoyed the mix of magic and tech in Arcanum, so I'll probably be steering a similar course in NEO Scavenger. Admittedly, Rifts went pretty bonkers with some ideas (Shadowrun too), so I'm hoping to keep a steadier hand in that regard.
Some examples of supernatural which might be closer fits include X-Files and Mage: The Ascension. Worlds where weird things exist, but are often rationalized away with science (or insanity).
I realize some folks prefer a more "The Road" experience, so one thing I'm considering is opening up the game to modding in the future. Perhaps if I can expose the game data in the right ways, folks can edit out the supernatural elements, or tweak the setting in other ways to suit their play style.
Re: hideouts and properties, that's sort of the thrust of the campsite feature that I added a while back. Each hex can have up to 5 different "sites" for stashing stuff and taking shelter. They provide variable amounts of concealment, shelter, restfulness, and healing rates (e.g. sleeping in an open field makes it harder to recuperate than in an apartment building). The latest build also features the ability to repair some tech in the cryo facility for heat and light. There's more that could be done, to be sure, but there are a few hooks like that already in there. (Note: some of those stat ratings are not visible to the player unless they have an appropriate skill, such as hiding->concealment).
Re: durability of items, it's mainly a measure of the items' remaining usable lifetime. Shoes with a low durability will fall apart sooner than a pair with higher durability. Repairing the damaged items is something that may come with the crafting update, once that's reached on the feature voting (more plot and bigger font/resolution are voted to the top right now). Also, you're right that NPCs should start with weathered items. That they don't isn't a design decision as much as a system I haven't had time to write yet
Re: companions and NPC packs, this is a tricky bit. I think it's unlikely that players will have companions in NEO Scavenger version 1. I'm having trouble keeping up with the systems I've added already, so adding more party members seems like biting off more than I can chew. If I reach a point where the other systems are mature enough and run smoothly, I may consider it (I really like the idea, mind you, I'm just trying to be realistic about my own capabilities).
NPC packs of 2 or more are something I'll probably add to v1, though. I may not be able to dedicate a lot of time to pack tactics and AI, but at least I can make certain NPC types appear in more logical numbers than 1. I'd also like NPCs to appear in more logical places and times. E.g. the dogman isn't meant to be everywhere in Michigan, but rather a more regional (and rare) encounter. I just have so few creatures to work with that I include them all, everywhere for now.
Finally, NPC spawns are tricky too. I totally agree that games are more fun when NPCs don't magically appear (random world encounters bothered me in other games, since I wanted to be able to outmaneuver them, or lay a trap). However, populating the world with creatures means the player must wait for AI to move each turn, which can really bog down the processor. Whenever I've tried it, my turns were taking too long to process, and it felt like I was always watching an hourglass.
Also, the population had a tendency to trend towards zero over time (dogmen vs. raiders vs. looters vs. bandits). With 50 or 100, this drops NPC encounters down to rare or never on the current map size. Realistic populations (e.g. 1000s or more) would help solve this, but would kill the CPU.
So as a compromise, I try to spawn NPCs at the periphery of the player's view range. When walking the map, the player may reveal a hex with a creature, and it will seem like they were always there. Plus, if the player flees many NPCs in a small area, they pile up and eventually kill each other off, keeping the turn processing time in check.
Scavenging, on the other hand, pops a creature into the current hex. My rationale here was that the player was busy inside, looting cabinets or drawers, and something was attracted by the activity. It seemed likely that the threat would be close by the time it was detected (i.e. the random combat starting range, usually beyond melee, but within rifle range).
I figured that scavenging was a rewarding process, and needed an appropriate risk to balance it. Accidents are one, as is time expenditure, but hostiles seemed more immedaite a threat. But this system may be too simplistic, or hand-wavy.
Overall, I'm open to suggestions for change, though I usually try to wait until I can see the system working in my head, and how it ties into existing parts. Completely new systems take weeks to design, and often weeks again to write and bug-fix, so I try to look for systems that bridge existing pieces as much as possible.
As always, thanks for the feedback and encouragement. There's always good info to be had here!
Zewp
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2012
- Messages
- 3,567
Played it for about half an hour today. Died three times due to damn bandits and a bipedal dog thing. Seems awesome, but I'll likely only properly get into it in about a week or so when I've got more time.
For some reason while playing it I feel a strong feeling of Zork nostalgia. No idea why.
For some reason while playing it I feel a strong feeling of Zork nostalgia. No idea why.
SCO
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2009
- Messages
- 16,320
Ultima 7 seems to have no problems with a large population... i think it's because it's actually disabled (no AI running) until you get near, so even if you have factions fighting etc, the player should see and probably kill the majority of the gameworld.
that isn't to say it's a good idea to adopt this (it probably isn't) but it can be done.
that isn't to say it's a good idea to adopt this (it probably isn't) but it can be done.
Trash
Pointing and laughing.
From playing that demo extensively it seemed to me that what the game mostly needed was a much better UI with a lot less mouse clicking needed to get stuff done. More content in the form of places to discover, text adventure parts to do, encounters to be had and enemies to be bested running away from. The basic game itself however? Gold. Love it. The scavenging and survival is simply awesome.
villain of the story
Arcane
I love this game but I'm not coming back before some serious UI rework is done. Easily the two thirds of the time I spent playing the game went into inventory management.
DarKPenguiN
Arcane
This actually looks quite cool-
Can anyone tell me if the DEMO represents the actual game (i.e. Is it like many demos that give 20 mins of pure awesomeness and upon buying the game you learn that that was the only awesomeness in the entire game?)
I am going to download the demo and give it a shot tonight. Looks pretty unique.
Can anyone tell me if the DEMO represents the actual game (i.e. Is it like many demos that give 20 mins of pure awesomeness and upon buying the game you learn that that was the only awesomeness in the entire game?)
I am going to download the demo and give it a shot tonight. Looks pretty unique.
BaconAndEggs
Augur
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2011
- Messages
- 198
I'm hopelessly addicted to this game right now. Two comments:
1: Is there a way to retrieve items from a container (first aid kit, backpack) without having to equip the item and fish them out? Like getting rags out of a first aid kit in a backpack, for instance? There should be a way to do this quickly unless i'm missing something.
2: I noticed when you pick up the pieces of paper with crafting recipes on them, if they're in a stack of 2 or higher and you move them from the ground to your inventory or vice versa, the last paper's recipe changes. You can then spam click the stack and move it to your inventory and back to get a majority of the crafting recipes on file.
1: Is there a way to retrieve items from a container (first aid kit, backpack) without having to equip the item and fish them out? Like getting rags out of a first aid kit in a backpack, for instance? There should be a way to do this quickly unless i'm missing something.
2: I noticed when you pick up the pieces of paper with crafting recipes on them, if they're in a stack of 2 or higher and you move them from the ground to your inventory or vice versa, the last paper's recipe changes. You can then spam click the stack and move it to your inventory and back to get a majority of the crafting recipes on file.
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2012
- Messages
- 1,063
Playing the demo now, picked all 5 traits! Hopefully it doesn't come back and bite me in the ass, I've always wanted to be a fragile hacker/thief/mechanic/herbalist with melee skillz.
The game can be either made to play with hardcore mode or for save scumming. This affects game design, but if you want to save scum in game not build for it then that is fine but having only hardcore guarantees that the game will be balanced for that.
You can only understand the Spirit Of The Wasteland if you have to restart every 3 minutes
Some people just can't seem to grasp a difference between "challenge" and "frustration". Hint: the latter is not fun.
It is fun to die if the game is build around it. You can't make save scumming fun. Save scumming can be necessary when quests/writing/story is important for the game, but for procedurally generated games it is bad design.
Last edited:
Overboard
Arcane
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2009
- Messages
- 719
Hey man, you forgot your
Also, the anniversary of the last post in this thread is two-and-a-half weeks away, work on your timing.
cherry blossom
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2013
- Messages
- 1,258
Combat is a riot in this game. Possibly the best and the most suspenseful abstraction system in a game that I've played.
cherry blossom
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2013
- Messages
- 1,258
This feels more like Wasteland at times than how Wasteland 2 will likely turn out.
Overboard
Arcane
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2009
- Messages
- 719
So, dcfedor, since you're reading this thread, do we get updated versions if we purchased this via a bundle (groupees), or shall I make another purchase of this fine game?
Also, post some more updates here man, you've been neglecting the codex. We're your number one fan. There is nothing to worry about. You are going to be just fine. We're your number one fan.
Also, post some more updates here man, you've been neglecting the codex. We're your number one fan. There is nothing to worry about. You are going to be just fine. We're your number one fan.
Renegen
Arcane
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2011
- Messages
- 4,062
I played the demo and I feel the game is a bit too random. Most roguelikes are divided in things like levels or floors, yeah each floor is really hard but you have a closed area in which to experiment and grind. Complete the 1st floor and you feel a sense of accomplishment. Then the 2nd floor has a completely different set of challenges. This game is a survival game and it's more open but it could really benefit from some static content. The best roguelikes in my opinion have metagaming, as you play more you get better at them and you can go very far with little risk. You get better at this game too of course, but having something like an urban area to the east of your starting location and a forested area to the west could really help people tailor their experience.
dcfedor
Blue Bottle Games
Overboard, ah, you caught me lurking It has been a while since I last updated.
To your first question, you have free access to all beta updates and the final version if you bought the beta (current version is 0.979). Desura customers get updates either via their client or manually downloading standalone files from the site. bluebottlegames.com customers get it via refreshing browser page, or downloading via the links below the browser.
Groupees Be Mine 5 customers should have also received a Desura key with their purchase, so they have all the access that grants, as well. I think you may have to login to their site to access the key, though I haven't gone through the process myself.
Desura and bluebottlegames.com customers can also cross-link their accounts, if they want. Finally, NEO Scavenger beta just launched on IndieGameStand's new store yesterday, which grants a Desura key, so that's another option.
As for what's new, there have been quite a few changes since last year. I'll do my best to recap:
Oh, and nice Misery pic! Not unsettling at all
Renegen, there are actually quite a few fixed locales and events in the game, though they may not be as apparent in the demo. Coincidentally, there is a big city to the east, a special forest encounter to the west, and a few other static places on the map. The shape of the map itself, and it's regional features, are also fairly static (e.g. more dogmen in the north, more bandits in the middle, more looters near Detroit).
The demo just limits play to a smaller region, and lacks a lot of the content added in the past year. Specifically, the demo lacks:
cherry blossom, thanks! That's quite a compliment!
Hopefully, this helps shed some light on the situation over at Blue Bottle Games. I've been quiet, but certainly not resting
It has been a while since I last updated.To your first question, you have free access to all beta updates and the final version if you bought the beta (current version is 0.979). Desura customers get updates either via their client or manually downloading standalone files from the site. bluebottlegames.com customers get it via refreshing browser page, or downloading via the links below the browser.
Groupees Be Mine 5 customers should have also received a Desura key with their purchase, so they have all the access that grants, as well. I think you may have to login to their site to access the key, though I haven't gone through the process myself.
Desura and bluebottlegames.com customers can also cross-link their accounts, if they want. Finally, NEO Scavenger beta just launched on IndieGameStand's new store yesterday, which grants a Desura key, so that's another option.
As for what's new, there have been quite a few changes since last year. I'll do my best to recap:
- NEO Scavenger now supports multiple resolutions. To-date, the game supports 800x450 (original size), 1600x900 (double size), 2400x1350 (triple size), plus a 1360x768 mode (larger font, some artwork 2x zoom, others 1x zoom). The game also supports fullscreen, aliasing/smoothing, and fixed-aspect stretching to fit window. Note: these resolutions seem a bit arbitrary to some, but are basically the best I could manage without distorting the original pixel art (or redrawing everything in the game).
- The beta now has several music tracks that play at random intervals.
- Beta players can now enter Detroit Mega City, which offers some new sights and sounds, and a few handy services for those willing to pay (including medical attention and minor prosthetics).
- Combat has continued to evolve, and now supports surrendering, looting unconscious creatures while in combat, a wider variety of range bands (short vs. long reach melee, missile and firearm ranges that make terrain and ranges more important). Retreat has become more reliable.
- AI has evolved a bit, and now supports solo vs. pack mentality in some creatures, morale effects from ally/enemy outnumbering, more idle activities.
- There are a handful of new, major encounters in the beta (roughly equal to or greater than complexity of the opening cryo encounter)
- The beta now has quite a few, random mini-encounters that appear throughout the game, offering a mix of setting info and moral quandaries.
- Several UI changes have been made, to help ease the clunkiness found in earlier versions. Most buttons have hotkeys now (described in tooltips for each button). The cursor can switch between drag+drop or click-to-take (flinging item across screen to first appropriate slot). Double-click also does the take/fling. Holding the 2 key makes the cursor "use" anything that is clicked, the 3 key "destroys" the item. Shift key allows stack-splitting. Right-click and drag to scroll the main map. Message window now opens via click instead of rollover. Click to sort items in a container. Plus several other tweaks.
- The beta has lots of new items floating around the game, including new firearms, primitive melee and missile weapons, hardware and software to mine for paydata (and lore), electronic tools now require charged batteries, more primitive vehicles (sleds, carts, travois).
- New crafting system which allows substitutions, so it's possible to use, say, a necklace and hospital gown to tie a splint, instead of just rags.
- There are a few new creatures in the game, including deer, and melonheads.
- Creatures now leave corpses behind, which can be skinned/butchered. (Previously, only trapped squirrels would provide meat/fur.)
- Items now have a right-click context menu, for various operations (e.g. use, destroy, take, empty out).
- Some items now require skill to identify (e.g. drugs, bullets), but still can be used by anyone.
- Water sources now have their own special tiles. Players need not hope for water in regular scavenging sites anymore, rather, they can get as much water as they want from certain infinite sources (rivers, lakes, swamps).
- Items within a stack now maintain their individual stats, so no more stack-spamming recipe hints.
- Substantial and numerous memory/performance optimizations and bug fixes.
Oh, and nice Misery pic! Not unsettling at all
Renegen, there are actually quite a few fixed locales and events in the game, though they may not be as apparent in the demo. Coincidentally, there is a big city to the east, a special forest encounter to the west, and a few other static places on the map. The shape of the map itself, and it's regional features, are also fairly static (e.g. more dogmen in the north, more bandits in the middle, more looters near Detroit).
The demo just limits play to a smaller region, and lacks a lot of the content added in the past year. Specifically, the demo lacks:
- Full access to the map.
- Access to Detroit Mega City
- In-game music
- Most of the encounters.
- Most of the new items and recipes added in the past year
- Save games
cherry blossom, thanks! That's quite a compliment!
Hopefully, this helps shed some light on the situation over at Blue Bottle Games. I've been quiet, but certainly not resting
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dcfedor
Blue Bottle Games
Hey Guys!
Just a heads-up: I'm giving away 6 copies of NEO Scavenger this Saturday, and anyone's eligible. A generous fan, who wishes to remain anonymous, inspired me to do a giveaway, so I'll be giving out 4 copies to players who don't already have access, and 2 additional copies to players who do. If you or someone you know has been itching to try the beta, this might be a good chance to get it. Plus, the contest gives me a bit of feedback on what curiosities players want satisfied.
You can see the details here.
So please take a look, and spread the word!
Just a heads-up: I'm giving away 6 copies of NEO Scavenger this Saturday, and anyone's eligible. A generous fan, who wishes to remain anonymous, inspired me to do a giveaway, so I'll be giving out 4 copies to players who don't already have access, and 2 additional copies to players who do. If you or someone you know has been itching to try the beta, this might be a good chance to get it. Plus, the contest gives me a bit of feedback on what curiosities players want satisfied.
You can see the details here.
So please take a look, and spread the word!
dcfedor
Blue Bottle Games
Hey Folks!
Just a heads-up, build 0.980 is live, and includes a few new toys to play with.
The Great Black Swamp, toxic water, water testing, power syphoning in the DMC sprawl, RTG power cells, artifacts, some new plot encounters/artwork, cannibalism nerfing (finally, consequences!), loot tweaks, quick recipe fixes, a new creature, and more. A lot of it is beta-only, but demo players get a taste, too.
If you've got some spare time and a hankering for some abuse, give it a shot!
Just a heads-up, build 0.980 is live, and includes a few new toys to play with.
The Great Black Swamp, toxic water, water testing, power syphoning in the DMC sprawl, RTG power cells, artifacts, some new plot encounters/artwork, cannibalism nerfing (finally, consequences!), loot tweaks, quick recipe fixes, a new creature, and more. A lot of it is beta-only, but demo players get a taste, too.
If you've got some spare time and a hankering for some abuse, give it a shot!
I guess I should finally dig out my registration info from underneath the rock I've placed it...
Any ETA when you'll be on Steam early access?
Any ETA when you'll be on Steam early access?
dcfedor
Blue Bottle Games
Haba, I actually wasn't planning on doing a Steam Early Access. I haven't been able to figure out whether SEA helps or hurts a title yet. That, and updating the builds is already a day-long ordeal between the BBG site, Desura, and IndieGameStand.
Overboard, Groupees should have given you a Desura key along with their download, so you can get access to updates after the bundle ends. Is the key maybe hidden in a receipt or similar?
tindrli, it's a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Finishing sooner means less stuff in the game, risking disappointment. Finishing later means disappointing players who wanted it sooner. The only upside is that we now know with certainty that I am a terrible project manager, and my time estimates are not to be trusted
Overboard, Groupees should have given you a Desura key along with their download, so you can get access to updates after the bundle ends. Is the key maybe hidden in a receipt or similar?
tindrli, it's a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Finishing sooner means less stuff in the game, risking disappointment. Finishing later means disappointing players who wanted it sooner. The only upside is that we now know with certainty that I am a terrible project manager, and my time estimates are not to be trusted
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