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My collected criticism on Pillars of Eternity (very minor spoilers)

Pillars of Eternity is


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The Bishop

Cipher
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
359
Even though I liked the game, there were a few things that bugged me. One of the bigger ones was in the last playthrough I did (on PotD difficulty), on the second Raedric fight, the fampyrs swarmed my party and focus-fire killed everyone except tanky Eder. They then proceeded to literally run in circles around him, attacking now and again, but mostly just running with no engagement lines going either way. As I recall, most of the mobs were blown up by Raedric's fireballs rather than anything I ended up doing. It was quite possibly the most retarded thing I've seen in any RPG ever. I'd considered reloading to try for a cleaner win, but after seeing that display of "unique" AI, I couldn't be bothered.
Yeah, that fight is a great illustration of all that is wrong with current state of affairs in PoE combat. Fampyrs seem to ignore engagements altogether (bug or undocumented ability?), but as a result they never give up trying to get to their targets and start running in circles instead of finally settling on attacking somebody. The easiest way to win that engagement is to simply go down the stairs and plug the entrance, then wait while Raederic murders all of his fampyrs with fireballs while they run in circles. Yet another combat opportunity buried under terrible AI and a plethora of technical problems.
 
Unwanted
Douchebag! Shitposter
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
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Meaning I like it way more than the IE combat. Including the engagement system.

Imagine, if you will, a Baldur’s Gate-like game with the state of the art RTwP combat powered up by Josh Sawyer’s version of DnD 4.0 - reimagined for balance-inclined audience,


At this point you're just trying to be a contrarian or have a lasting grudge against BG 2.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
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Mar 16, 2015
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19,998
He means he was bored of it, not that it was hard.
Does not change my comment one bit. If he was so bored of one area and he could not "suffer" 15 minutes of that he is a weak human OR BG1 was boring him and this area bored him more so he could not stand it anymore in which case my last post stands.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Meaning I like it way more than the IE combat. Including the engagement system.

Imagine, if you will, a Baldur’s Gate-like game with the state of the art RTwP combat powered up by Josh Sawyer’s version of DnD 4.0 - reimagined for balance-inclined audience,


At this point you're just trying to be a contrarian or have a lasting grudge against BG 2.
I've never liked BG and thought that BG2 was merely passable - an 'exciting' action-adventure, but hardly more than that. When I joined the Codex 12 years ago, this was a fairly popular opinion.
 

Rake

Arcane
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Oct 11, 2012
Messages
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Meaning I like it way more than the IE combat. Including the engagement system.

Imagine, if you will, a Baldur’s Gate-like game with the state of the art RTwP combat powered up by Josh Sawyer’s version of DnD 4.0 - reimagined for balance-inclined audience,


At this point you're just trying to be a contrarian or have a lasting grudge against BG 2.
I've never liked BG and thought that BG2 was merely passable - an 'exciting' action-adventure, but hardly more than that. When I joined the Codex 12 years ago, this was a fairly popular opinion.
12 years ago Codex wasn't the same as today's Codex. I don't believe PoE will be the future classic and time is all that is needed, like you make it sound happened with BG2.
12 years ago Codex was a place which literaly worshiped Fallout as the one true way to make RPGs. Everything else was subpar, or something else, be it a well made "action-adventure with stats" , "visual novel with stats" "hack and slash with stats". C&C were king and p. much the only thing that mattered. Troika was the way to the future, Black Isle were good for what it is and latter Obsidian was the same,only worse.

Today Codex has moved from that mentality. Fallout is still liked (because the game IS a classic) but there are many people prefering F2 to F1, even more prefering PST over both, BG2 moved ahead of Arcanum in "TOP RPGs of all time". BG2 is becoming part of the new Codex Holy Trinity, it can't be just time. Unless the future Codex changes in a similar way so that Sawyer's design principles become the Ideal (universality in system design, balance is king, 4E is the best D&D edition, 100% gamism etc.) i just don't see PoE having lasting appeal. But some posters like Roguey and Infinitron are already in that path so who knows.
Best case scenario: PoE2 is to PoE what BG2 is to BG (and preferably Obsidian forces Sawyer to loosen up in his idiotic principles regarding hard counters and magic), and PoE is remembered in a similar way BG1 is, a mediocre "good for what it is" game that introdused a series af good/great games that defined their era.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
12 years ago Codex wasn't the same as today's Codex. I don't believe PoE will be the future classic and time is all that is needed, like you make it sound happened with BG2.
12 years ago Codex was a place which literaly worshiped Fallout as the one true way to make RPGs. Everything else was subpar, or something else, be it a well made "action-adventure with stats" , "visual novel with stats" "hack and slash with stats". C&C were king and p. much the only thing that mattered. Troika was the way to the future, Black Isle were good for what it is and latter Obsidian was the same,only worse.

Today Codex has moved from that mentality. Fallout is still liked (because the game IS a classic) but there are many people prefering F2 to F1, even more prefering PST over both, BG2 moved ahead of Arcanum in "TOP RPGs of all time". BG2 is becoming part of the new Codex Holy Trinity, it can't be just time. Unless the future Codex changes in a similar way so that Sawyer's design principles become the Ideal (universality in system design, balance is king, 4E is the best D&D edition, 100% gamism etc.) i just don't see PoE having lasting appeal. But some posters like Roguey and Infinitron are already in that path so who knows.
Best case scenario: PoE2 is to PoE what BG2 is to BG (and preferably Obsidian forces Sawyer to loosen up in his idiotic principles regarding hard counters and magic), and PoE is remembered in a similar way BG1 is, a mediocre "good for what it is" game that introdused a series af good/great games that defined their era.

It's not the only way in which Codex changed. For all its strengths (C&C, faction system, skill checks, solid overall writing etc.) I doubt that the fact that moment-to-moment gameplay in FNV is essentially that of a dumb console port would have been as easily glossed over as it is today and it would be as widely accepted as the "real" Fallout 3. It's one game I definitely see climbing up the list even more in the years to come as it combines the above mentioned things that are still universally acclaimed on Codex with console hiking sim gameplay which seems to becoming more and more popular (or atleast tolerated more) on the Dex with every passing year.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,395
There is more than just time on making a classic guys, otherwise Deus Ex Invisible War would be the best Deus Ex ever, you need quality too to become a classic... okay, I understand people that don't stand RTwP, RTS controls and giving preference to real C&C (I prefer TB but RTwP isn't a deal breaker for me.) don't recognizing BG 2 as a classic but saying that PoE is somehow better than the BGs is having no consistency because PoE got the worst of BG1, made it even worse and purposely ignored the qualities that made BG 2 a classic for the peopl that like it on the first place.

Replayed BG 2 recently and the game is as entertaining as it was years ago, yeah the Ui and inventory system is annoying but the game was fun, tried to replay PoE once and twice but the feeling of boredom and frustration was just overwhelming, even most people that like it classify it as "The game is good for what it is, had fun, that is it." and only the crazy Obsidian fanboys shutdown any kind of judgement on the game and say "Best gaem evar!." this hardly makes it an enthusiasmed reaction to a future classic and this on today's codex that is alot more popamolified.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Most of the 'classics' appear to be considered classics for stuff like character systems, dialogue, c&c - stuff like that. BG2 is a classic for it's moment to moment gameplay. The old guard codexers don't seem to care as much about that. For me it's the top priority, but I do accept and enjoy games that don't excel at it.

I think it's because I've played a lot of multiplayer over the years.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,395
Most of the 'classics' appear to be considered classics for stuff like character systems, dialogue, c&c - stuff like that. BG2 is a classic for it's moment to moment gameplay. The old guard codexers don't seem to care as much about that. For me it's the top priority, but I do accept and enjoy games that don't excel at it.

I think it's because I've played a lot of multiplayer over the years.
Yep, saying a game is crap because it lacks C&C and isn't TB, for example, is different than saying it is crap because you fight boring copy pasted encounters everywhere, boring itemization and boring sidequests from start to end when the focus of the game is fighting and exploring and both are unsatisfying as fuck on PoE. I prefer turn based and C&C focused games but that is a different standard, I recognize BG 2 as a well done "hack and slash" where you go fighting fun combat encounters and exploring interesting places without too much focus on reactivity and PoE fail to be that.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
This review could go on the front page since felipepepe is a published professional games journalist now.
 

pakoito

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,092
Nobody's alt. I was warned that Codex was full of evil so I stayed the fuck away for years. Later I found out it was a bunch of salty as fuck FO3 fanboys who were mad as fuck that the Codex didn't like it. It's fucking sad honestly.
kek
 

Cadmus

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,264
Can I whine in this thread after having finished the game?

My collected random thoughts:

The story:
First I'd like to say something to the people who are concerned with the story and whether the game tackled a serious philosophical question (as per the name of the other thread):

I didn't notice this "what can change the nature of a man" question as if it was supposed to be a theme of the game or something. I have no idea why people keep bringing it up.

the text just got so cumbersome with the descriptions of all the bullshit that when the question popped up, I was wondering wtf was that supposed to mean, answered something "I don't give a shit" and moved on to skipping the rest of the dialogues. These fucking people can't write, the text is so heavy on empty filler shit it's a waste of time most of the time.

The ending didn't tackle any deep concepts imo, it felt tacked on with some random lady appearing suddenly and asking about total shit. I don't know what the fuck she was talking about, I started skipping all that shit halfway through the game, lol. She kept nagging about why I wanted to kill Thaos and I had no idea, I told her he was the bad guy and she kept bringing up some inquisition or what but that didn't connect with me. She told me I had gone to Thaos for answers and betrayed her or what. I had been under the impression that I kept telling Thaos to fuck off in all the visions or what with the purple ghosts and suddenly I was supposed to be a traitor or a big cultist or something? I wanted no part in their shit from the beginning!

I thought I was supposed to kill Thaos because he started killing the childrens souls or using them to power the bad Woedica god. The lady kept acting as if I was under some moral dilemma and I couldn't find the right answers to tell her to fuck off. Another horrible point was that I was supposed to be going insane but I never noticed anything insane so I never cared. I blame the shitty, heavy writing for all this.

I liked the grim setting at the start, as many others have noted. It was the best part of the game by far.
I have no idea what the gods were supposed to be - some robots or what? I don't think the game explicitly explained it or how they have their godly power or wtf because as far as I understood the gods were real enough to be able to behave like gods, as per the old saying, any technology that is too far advanced is indistinguishable from a god. or something. Basically, the game never told me why they WERENT gods, just having been created by people doesn't make them not gods, for example as in Discworld.

One quest that stood out to me that really pissed me off was the nobleman's daughter with his child. I basically got a modern day, liberally naive options at the ending dialogue. This was a big point where I thought wtf what fucking developer inserted their ego here?

The combat:
Otherwise, the game was ok, the items were seriously shit, everything samey, the combat was ok but everything samey and too easy with the default Eder + slings guns on everybody else.

My criticism is that nothing felt really powerful. Some enemies dealt a bit more damage, some had a bit more HP but it was all kinda in the middle. I'd like there to be skeletons who you basically can't shoot because they have holes in them so you gotta use magic or swords, ghosts resistant to all physical damage so that you need magic weapons, stuff like that, otherwise you don't give a shit and pelt everything with bullets even if it takes 15 seconds longer. They fucked it up because the good bestiary was practically begging for this, they had all the systems in place to support big strategic decisions like this. They even had more inventory slots for weapon sets, for christ sake. Don't say shit like OMG NOOB YOU SHOULD PLAY ON POTD DIFFICULTY ITS THE TRUE DIFFICULTY. That's bullshit, Hard is supposed to be Hard. I started Lords of Xulima on the highest difficulty, thinking it was gonna be the same shit as every other game, not wanting to get burned like in PoE but I got my ass kicked so bad I basically need to restart because I can't do anything. That's how it should be, they should name the difficulties accordingly and not move everything 3 levels up so that Easy actually means For People Without Eyes and Hands.

I also don't understand why the hell there was nowhere to read about the enemy race, like I understood that xaurips were wilderlings or something but it should have been written in their bestiary slot. Another thing they should have done with this cool html linking system was display random links or random bestiary descriptions in the horrible long loading screens instead of putting those generic shit useless advices like IF ENEMY IS TOO STRONG KILL HIM BETTER. I hate the wasted opportunities like this. I might have learned what the skills and stats did had they put their descriptions in the loading screens instead of that shit.

I don't know which system is to blame for my characters randomly standing and shooting a guy from close range instead of running away, I think it was a combination of a shit pathfinding and the engagement system but it seriously pissed me off many times.

I hear all the talk about making the combat more difficult by increasing the damage or something but I don't want that. I want it to be more mentally challenging, hard counters to shit, better enemy placement, more powerful and game changing spell effects, the enemy reacting very differently to different attacks, not just HP bloat or damage bloat. Better make a simple rock paper scissors system than this shit which, while with tons of number crunching, in the end it just allows me to finish the game without ever bothering with any of it, even on Hard.

The rest/random shit:

As has been said many times, I wished for more of those nice scripted story events. I wished the stronghold wasn't hidden behind 30 loading screens, the resting bonuses stacked as they should have and that I actually were attacked there. I'm not sure if there were supposed to be some sieges, I think people wrote about it but I never had any siege.

As for the XP - I don't think the XP was bloated, I just wished I could go to a higher lvl instead. I finished the majority of the final act at lvl 12, I don't think it has ever happened to me in any other game, so that pissed me off.

The no XP for combat bullshit was horrible. Exactly as everybody had predicted - the game is all combat and getting no XP for it, no good loot and no fun spells makes it boring, no matter any retarded arguments about how it's not realistic to improve your Barter skill by killing kobolds.

I'm also not sure about what the stealth mechanics were for. Was I supposed to be improving it just so that I could spot the enemy before they can spot me and have my thief do 1 critical hit?

The ending slides were nice, well narrated, bittersweet. Although not many of my choices got mentioned, those which did had some more complex stories about them, not just YOU SAVED CHILDREN, EVERYBODY IS HAPPY but instead YOU SAVED CHILDREN EVERYBODY IS HAPPY EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO ALREADY HAD KILLED THEIR CHILDREN, THEY GOT FUCKED OVER AND ARE NOW REALLY SAD. That's cool, I wasn't expecting anything like this.

Grieving mother sucked because her dialogues were badly recorded so I never used her.

Durance was quite funny, all those whores and bitches and dirty language. Too verbose for my taste but at least he had some strong opinions and a strong personality.

Eder was a bro, who didn't really fit in the game, because he was almost breaking the fourth wall as he was usually saying the stuff I wished I could be saying - laid back, making fun of all the retarded peasants with pitchforks. The rest of the companions I didn't care for.

I didn't discover the druid until Act III because he was in a tiny black spot on the map that I didn't explore by accident. My mistake, whatever.

Raedric's hold crashed the 2nd time I went there so I never had this famous fight with the fampyrs. Oh yeah, some of the enemy names were really stupid and took me out of the game. And I hate fighting the fucking puddings/oozes in games, it's the least interesting enemy ever. Better give me some rats than this shit. It's literally a formless blob, oh my god. At least they had weird shit stuck in them in Wizardry 8.

The game was so beautiful but after the first Act, it started feeling so soulless. I'm not sure why that was, I think mostly the writing and the shit +3% numbers and made-up fake sounding lore being dumped on me from all sides are the most to blame.

If I ever replay the game (I don't think I will) I'll play on Easy, turn on all the HUD indicators, speech indicators and play it to actually check for all the c&c, but I suspect there won't be too much of it to get me through the slog.
 

bminorkey

Guest
sis your review of the story is basically "hurr i don't like reading and didn't pay attention to any of the text"
 

Cadmus

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,264
sis your review of the story is basically "hurr i don't like reading and didn't pay attention to any of the text"
some of it yes, can you tell me something about the points I did read? was I wrong? I said I didn't read cuz the writing was horrible, overly descriptive which is the point I wanted to make.
 

bminorkey

Guest
I don't think it's honest to review a book you only skimmed, even if you skimmed it because it bored you. What I would do in that case is not write anything about the story at all and just say "I didn't pay attention to it".
 

Cadmus

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,264
I don't think it's honest to review a book you only skimmed, even if you skimmed it because it bored you. What I would do in that case is not write anything about the story at all and just say "I didn't pay attention to it".
it's not a book, it's a game where the book part is really boring. But sure, of course I'm not saying the bits I didn't read were bad, I said those I read were bad.
 

bminorkey

Guest
I don't think it's honest to review a book you only skimmed, even if you skimmed it because it bored you. What I would do in that case is not write anything about the story at all and just say "I didn't pay attention to it".
it's not a book, it's a game where the book part is really boring. But sure, of course I'm not saying the bits I didn't read were bad, I said those I read were bad.

you're being silly
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
Decent review Cadmus, Just a few observations.

Writing was bad enough that you didnt miss anything, it was banal shit boring drivel that you were better off skipping, dont worry about it and dont fall on the stupid argument of "you should have forced yourself to read it to be able to criticize it". If you are even a little adept at reading you know decent writing lends itself to it, you dont actually need to force yourself to go tru it. quality was simply that bad, not even in a cringe worthy sort of way like gaider and company do, but souless boring nonsensical shit from some pretentious wannabe.
I know its really baffling because its obsidian we are talking about, but its true.
Related to writing, characterization of most characters in the game were awful, not a single memorable one outside your party, even the "big bad" is forgettable and boring, they should really go play tw3 to see how its done.

Combat assesment, spot on, higher numbers dont mean shit (this is by design, as most numbers are directly tied to creatures levels, due to the unified character system), PoTD is exactly the same as hard, but fights lasts longer, that is all. The character system is poorly designed and makes every monster the same, the only ones that are somewhat different are the ones with unique abilities that break the systems of the game (literally "hard counters" that break repetition), or stupid buffed creatures with numbers so high that remind me of some monsters i used to send my players back in my first campaign when i was 18. But hey, at least they break the repetition.

Items are boring, and the that werent got nerfed. Same with classes. Wouldnt be surprised if classes ended up being quite a bit different that they were at release in 6 months, because of balance patches. Couldnt say if it will improve or not.

Eder was fine, but i agree, he didnt fit in the setting. Durance was plain fun, people that criticize him are talking out of their asses, it was a joy to read him and at the very least he had color in an otherwise grey game. GM showed promise, never got to play enough to see where the whole thing was going to tho, so not sure. Aloth didnt belong in the setting, tbh magic as a whole doesnt fit in it. They should have made them alchemists instead of mages and it would have worked tons better for the flavor of the class.
 
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SausageInYourFace

Angelic Reinforcement
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Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
the text just got so cumbersome with the descriptions of all the bullshit that when the question popped up, I was wondering wtf was that supposed to mean, answered something "I don't give a shit" and moved on to skipping the rest of the dialogues. [...]

The ending didn't tackle any deep concepts imo, it felt tacked on with some random lady appearing suddenly and asking about total shit. I don't know what the fuck she was talking about, I started skipping all that shit halfway through the game, lol. [...]
[...]

I have no idea what the gods were supposed to be - some robots or what? [...]

"I hated the writing cause it was so boooring to read it all so I skipped most it, lol! and then I had now idea what the fuck was going on, lol! the writing was the worstest, it was the boringestest ever! See, I know about writing and stuff!"

Thats some quality discussion right there, mate.
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,432
I don't think it's honest to review a book you only skimmed, even if you skimmed it because it bored you. What I would do in that case is not write anything about the story at all and just say "I didn't pay attention to it".
it's not a book, it's a game where the book part is really boring. But sure, of course I'm not saying the bits I didn't read were bad, I said those I read were bad.

Im not even defending the game but going "I got bored of reading so I skipped through all of the plot" is looking to be a guaranteed way to not have a welcome spot on the 'Dex. It's like saying you didn't like the combat in Shadowrun after one encounter and just used cheats to the wipe the screen for every other encounter and then complain like a bitch that you have to wipe the screen for every encounter.

No, I think that opinion is actually quite welcome on the Codex. Consensus seems to be that quests are mostly fedex, setting is a dull version of Forgotten Realms with mandatory mentioning of souls in every sentence, dialogue is terribly written and mostly just dull description of the same things over and over. Creativity is absolutely 0 except for GM and Durance which were conceptualized by Avellone, although they were too good for the game and therefore most of their content got cut. There's no harm in skipping through all that trash. If you skimmed over the writing in PST, that on the other hand would be sacrilege.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
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Sep 9, 2013
Messages
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Secret Level
Writing was bad enough that you didnt miss anything, it was banal shit boring drivel that you were better off skipping, dont worry about it and dont fall on the stupid argument of "you should have forced yourself to read it to be able to criticize it". If you are even a little adept at reading you know decent writing lends itself to it, you dont actually need to force yourself to go tru it. quality was simply that bad, not even in a cringe worthy sort of way like gaider and company do, but souless boring nonsensical shit from some pretentious wannabe.
I know its really baffling because its obsidian we are talking about, but its true.
Related to writing, characterization of most characters in the game were awful, not a single memorable one outside your party, even the "big bad" is forgettable and boring, they should really go play tw3 to see how its done.

My impression was that the writing was a patchwork of different ideas, some of which worked, but the majority didn't. And yeah, I started skipping dialogs to.

The the annoying thing about this game was, that if they cut out all gods, reincarnations,Thaos and also magic, and just left a country on the brink of destruction (due to children being born soulless), it would be a better story. Right now Pillars plays simply as yet another "kill the bad guy before he destroyes the world" game. They could have done more with the setting they came up with. For example, I found the question of how much scientific freedom should be allowed (the animancy storyline, where they put animal souls into soulless newborns resulting in monsters) when dealing with the possibility of exctinction far more interesting. But instead you get "here is the bad guy, you knew each other in your previous lives, you need to find him and stop him", again.
 

Atchodas

Augur
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,047
PoE has one of the worst stories , reading dialogue is masochism , god bless the guy who included option so dialogue shows dispositions , then you can simply click the dispositions you need and avoid reading the dialogue all together , BABYSOULZ CARE ABOUT THE CHILDREN fuck no i dont.
 

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