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G2A Steam Key Reseller Drama Thread

Mustawd

Guest
The question then is, how many of the keys are getting cancelled, and how many of them are not, because the dev has no way of doing it? I believe that was the case with the Punch Club developer, they were not able to connect the keys to the transactions that were done with stolen cc, so they had no way of telling which key they should recall. Yes, that is an oversight on their part. But it is also no excuse to exploit it for fraud.

Again, just because it is a shitty situation for the dev, it does not make it fraud. It's just a loophole that exists at this moment. But I don't think it's fair to blame G2A unless they have more proof that they are knowingly allowing this to happen. If the dev can't tell which keys were obtained fraudulently, then how is G2A supposed to know?
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
The question then is, how many of the keys are getting cancelled, and how many of them are not, because the dev has no way of doing it? I believe that was the case with the Punch Club developer, they were not able to connect the keys to the transactions that were done with stolen cc, so they had no way of telling which key they should recall. Yes, that is an oversight on their part. But it is also no excuse to exploit it for fraud.

Again, just because it is a shitty situation for the dev, it does not make it fraud. It's just a loophole that exists at this moment. But I don't think it's fair to blame G2A unless they have more proof that they are knowingly allowing this to happen. If the dev can't tell which keys were obtained fraudulently, then how is G2A supposed to know?
Yes, now we have the argument about how involved is the G2A in the obvious scams and how much of their bussiness is comming from this. Is it acceptable if only 10% of their income comes from it? How about if 30% or 50%? We dont know those numbers, and we will probably never know them.

Another question is, how G2A is dealing with the known frauds on their site. All I know is the rumours I heard that they do nothing, only in very big and public cases they give refunds to people. I checked some random sellers accounts, and all of them have negative comments (like 1-10% of all comments) that are about the fact that the purchased key is not working or is not what it was supposed to be. And the really big sellers have thousands of negative comments about but they are still allowed to sell. Admitedtly, those negative comments are no more than 10% of all comments, but 1000 negative comments is for sure something to take a look at, even if the guy also has 10000 positive or neutral comments.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Yes, I think in that case it's up to G2A to be a good policer (that a word?) of its resellers. But I'd say this is also in their best interest. At least long term interests anyways.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
13,999
Location
Platypus Planet
How fucking hard can it be to get people to buy games? It's not. People love to buy games, especially legit copies and even directly from the dev. People feel compelled to support devs when they:
1) Aren't whiny cunts on social media
2) Don't overprice their game
3) Make it a good goddamn game instead of some piece of shit
That's all it takes, but these indie divas are so immersed in their safe spaces that they can't understand when the free market doesn't react favorably to their 20 minute cinematic homoerotic platformic experience that is being sold at a premium price.
 
Last edited:

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
How fucking hard can it be to get people to buy games? It's not. People love to buy games, especially legit copies and even directly from the dev. People feel compelled to support devs when they aren't.
1) Whiny cunts on social media
2) Don't overprice their game
3) Make it a good goddamn game instead of some piece of shit
That's all it takes, but these indie divas are so immersed in their safe spaces that they can't understand when the free market doesn't react favorably to their 20 minute cinematic homoerotic platformer experience that is being sold at a premium price.
I think that again, those are two different issues.

The issue that started this thread was the reselling of keys bought with stolen credit cards. And we all can agree that this shit should be dealt with for the benefit of everybody (Except maybe the thieves). People are singling out G2A on this issue because it is the biggest key reseller that had issues with stolen keys in the past and seems not to take much action against it happening in the future. It is also the best known, partnered with majority of streamers/youtubers.

The other issue that some people are bringing up in this thread is Indie Devs whining that "Muh gaem doesnt sell!" when they ask for 15$ for 2h "interactive experience" or some shitty platformer. Those devs we can ridicule and laugh at their inability to grasps the concepts of free market and basic economics. Another part of this issue is when those devs whine about "People just buying the game cheap in a bundle instead of giving me the full price!" when they themselves agreed to be a part of the bundle. Again, we can laugh at those morons and tell them to go "pursue a different career path".
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
Yes, I think in that case it's up to G2A to be a good policer (that a word?) of its resellers. But I'd say this is also in their best interest. At least long term interests anyways.
I suspect that there isn't really a "long term" for sites like G2A. Over the next 10 years the industry will probably move away from selling fungible "keys" to having all bought games added directly to your account. There will be little room for any 3rd party resellers.
 

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
I'd say the CC companies are equally to blame as well as the original key providers (e.g. indie dev stores) which don't use or provide suffienctly advanced fraud detection / prevention. E.g. some stores use an additional password linked to my CC and some don't. Also I have to confirm a 5ct sale on Steam with my phone, but not a $2000 purchase with my CC.

I suspect that there isn't really a "long term" for sites like G2A. Over the next 10 years the industry will probably move away from selling fungible "keys" to having all bought games added directly to your account. There will be little room for any 3rd party resellers.

HB did that for a while with their Steam keys, but backtracked.
 

pippin

Guest
iirc HB had an program for adding the key directly to your account, but it was still a cdkey in the transaction, and they had to drop that because Steam ended the support for their program. However, that would create a market for accounts, which is kind of already there. I've seen people selling their Steam accounts. The only solution would be to allow people to just trade their cdkeys as they wish, because the more you try to control this kind of thing, the more people will try to find a way to simply fuck your blocking attempts.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
I'd say the CC companies are equally to blame as well as the original key providers (e.g. indie dev stores) which don't use or provide suffienctly advanced fraud detection / prevention. E.g. some stores use an additional password linked to my CC and some don't. Also I have to confirm a 5ct sale on Steam with my phone, but not a $2000 purchase with my CC.

I suspect that there isn't really a "long term" for sites like G2A. Over the next 10 years the industry will probably move away from selling fungible "keys" to having all bought games added directly to your account. There will be little room for any 3rd party resellers.

HB did that for a while with their Steam keys, but backtracked.
There is definitly room for improvement on the part of Credit Card companies and indie dev stories but lets not try to blame them for the illegal actions of some assholes.

I agree that strenghtening the protections against card frauds and charge back scams seems like the way to go because the problems seem to originate with those illegal activities.

So, a few points on what could be done:
1. Make every card transaction require a two step autenthication. Like a phone one, or at least a password that is send to your e-mail account. Sure, it would require slightly more work on the part of the customer, but it would increase security significantly.
2. Key reselling websites should take steps to improve their vetting process for the keys that are posted on their site. Also, they should monitor and deal immidietly with any suspicious attempts to sell keys. A price that is significantly lower than market average, an number of negative comments on an account. There are sellers that have hundreds or thousands or negative comments still being able to sell keys there.
3. They should make their G2A shield protection a part of the transaction without any additional costs. Without doing it, they are trying to make it look like its your fault that your got scammed on their website, because you should have just pay that 1Euro/Dollar. Try to imagine a situation in which you had to pay extra to be able to return something to a physical retail store. Like, you didnt pay for the "Walmart Shield"? We cant take this faulty TV back, suck a dick!
4. Indie dev stories should implement both an ability to track which key was bought with which transaction, and an ability to revoke those keys immidietly.
5. People should learn to recognize that if a deal seem too good, better than anything else they can find, then they should ask how it is possible to sell it for such a low price, and what are the risks associated with such a purchase.
 

Jigawatt

Arcane
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
3,409
Location
in a desert, walking along in the sand
2. If they are replacing a canceled key with a legit key, then the dev comes ahead.

In addition, how is a dev affected if a key gets cancelled? To me there's two scenarios:

1. G2A must buy a new key at the same or lower price. In this case the dev gets some money back. It's not great, but it's not nothing either. In G2A's case they lose money because they had to purchase an extra key.

One thing you (and a few other people) are missing is that a chargeback is not zero-sum for the developer, especially if they're selling from their own site. See for example https://support.stripe.com/questions/how-does-stripe-handle-chargebacks (scroll down to 'Avoiding Chargebacks') and note that in addition to returning the funds you get hit with a $15 fee per chargeback, even if you did nothing wrong and are the victim of fraud. (And this is one of the lower ones - it can get up to $30 for starters, increasing as your % of bad transactions increase)

Someone hanging onto a database of card info can probably hit your site from a botnet, making detection of fraud without a dedicated 3rd party impossible for indie storefronts. So after only a few hundred chargebacks you'll be $10k in the hole. Even if you revoke all the keys at this point and G2A is really nice and buys replacements at full retail, you won't be back in the black unless you're charging > $20
 

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
2. If they are replacing a canceled key with a legit key, then the dev comes ahead.

In addition, how is a dev affected if a key gets cancelled? To me there's two scenarios:

1. G2A must buy a new key at the same or lower price. In this case the dev gets some money back. It's not great, but it's not nothing either. In G2A's case they lose money because they had to purchase an extra key.

One thing you (and a few other people) are missing is that a chargeback is not zero-sum for the developer, especially if they're selling from their own site. See for example https://support.stripe.com/questions/how-does-stripe-handle-chargebacks (scroll down to 'Avoiding Chargebacks') and note that in addition to returning the funds you get hit with a $15 fee per chargeback, even if you did nothing wrong and are the victim of fraud. (And this is one of the lower ones - it can get up to $30 for starters, increasing as your % of bad transactions increase)

Someone hanging onto a database of card info can probably hit your site from a botnet, making detection of fraud without a dedicated 3rd party impossible for indie storefronts. So after only a few hundred chargebacks you'll be $10k in the hole. Even if you revoke all the keys at this point and G2A is really nice and buys replacements at full retail, you won't be back in the black unless you're charging > $20

And that's why I see a big responsibility with the CC companies. But like G2A profits from shady dealings, they do as well, as long as it doesn't negatively impact trust. Also indie stores need to implement the existing possibilities to detect and prevent fraudulent CC transactions. There are a few, not only CVC, but also additional passwords and all the other options listed in the stripe document.

As an indie, I wouldn't sell keys in my store - just a download. Maybe give out Steam keys on written request for the fanatics who can't live without one, but still don't want to buy there.
 

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
No exactly because, as far as I understand, G2A only facilitates transactions between third-parties. It's more like a safe space.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
2. If they are replacing a canceled key with a legit key, then the dev comes ahead.

In addition, how is a dev affected if a key gets cancelled? To me there's two scenarios:

1. G2A must buy a new key at the same or lower price. In this case the dev gets some money back. It's not great, but it's not nothing either. In G2A's case they lose money because they had to purchase an extra key.

One thing you (and a few other people) are missing is that a chargeback is not zero-sum for the developer, especially if they're selling from their own site. See for example https://support.stripe.com/questions/how-does-stripe-handle-chargebacks (scroll down to 'Avoiding Chargebacks') and note that in addition to returning the funds you get hit with a $15 fee per chargeback, even if you did nothing wrong and are the victim of fraud. (And this is one of the lower ones - it can get up to $30 for starters, increasing as your % of bad transactions increase)

Someone hanging onto a database of card info can probably hit your site from a botnet, making detection of fraud without a dedicated 3rd party impossible for indie storefronts. So after only a few hundred chargebacks you'll be $10k in the hole. Even if you revoke all the keys at this point and G2A is really nice and buys replacements at full retail, you won't be back in the black unless you're charging > $20
Oh yeah, I forgot about the charge back fees that can get ridiculous. As you have pointed out, those things will easily get a store in debt due to the nature of how Credit Card companies use them.

No exactly because, as far as I understand, G2A only facilitates transactions between third-parties. It's more like a safe space.

They also sell their own keys, but Im pretty sure all of those are legit. The problem is always with the third party sellers that use their site. But, to be honest, there would be no way to prove that G2A themselves do not sell stolen keys through third party sellers. It would be super easy for them to just create a hundred accounts that seem like third party sellers but are run by G2A. But thats going into conspiracy theory waters, until somebody can prove it somehow.
 

Mustawd

Guest
2. If they are replacing a canceled key with a legit key, then the dev comes ahead.

In addition, how is a dev affected if a key gets cancelled? To me there's two scenarios:

1. G2A must buy a new key at the same or lower price. In this case the dev gets some money back. It's not great, but it's not nothing either. In G2A's case they lose money because they had to purchase an extra key.

One thing you (and a few other people) are missing is that a chargeback is not zero-sum for the developer, especially if they're selling from their own site. See for example https://support.stripe.com/questions/how-does-stripe-handle-chargebacks (scroll down to 'Avoiding Chargebacks') and note that in addition to returning the funds you get hit with a $15 fee per chargeback, even if you did nothing wrong and are the victim of fraud. (And this is one of the lower ones - it can get up to $30 for starters, increasing as your % of bad transactions increase)

Someone hanging onto a database of card info can probably hit your site from a botnet, making detection of fraud without a dedicated 3rd party impossible for indie storefronts. So after only a few hundred chargebacks you'll be $10k in the hole. Even if you revoke all the keys at this point and G2A is really nice and buys replacements at full retail, you won't be back in the black unless you're charging > $20


Hmm...but in the case of a bundle, who fronts those fees? I hardly would think it's the devs. They might lose the revenues from the sale, but I'd find it hard to believe they're responsible.

Which brings up another point:

If these bundlers are being hit with such huge chargebacks (because according to these indie devs this happens in large amounts right?), you'd think it'd be hitting their bottom line pretty hard, no?

Have we heard anything from the bundlers or is the bad press coming mainly from the devs?
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,566
Codex 2013
Yes, now we have the argument about how involved is the G2A in the obvious scams and how much of their bussiness is comming from this.

They're more than aware that their site is being used for fraudulent activity. G2A just doesn't care about legal issues unless it's in the public's eye. People are unwittingly being signed up for G2A Shield subs and then being billed until they go through the painful process of unsubbing. Just look at what it takes to unsubscribe from G2A Shield:

Cancelling G2A Shield took 16 clicks across 10 different pages for a gamer

And then once you've clicked through all that, it takes them anywhere up to 20 minutes to send the email and then the cancelation token inside the email is only valid for 10 minutes. Happened to me and I realised I'd been paying 1 Euro for nothing for 6 months, with no idea how the fuck I got suckered into signing up because I never opt for G2A Shield. I use PayPal disputes to resolve my issues because G2A Support are fucking useless and are biased in favor of sellers. That's if you even manage to get a response out of them.

G2A are shady as fuck. Anyone with a brain has known this for years. People just stared themselves blind against the cheap prices. Just go have a look at the G2A subreddit and see how many complaints of common issues there are, most notably the runaround support gives you when you need something refunded. Honestly, I'm not that hard up for cash that I need to deal with a bunch of shady chinks to get games for cheap. I'll either buy them full price and skip all the potential hassle, or I'll wait for a Steam sale.

Hmm...but in the case of a bundle, who fronts those fees? I hardly would think it's the devs. They might lose the revenues from the sale, but I'd find it hard to believe they're responsible.

Assuming you're talking about Humble Bundle keys, it is forbidden to sell them. I once made G2A refund me for a seller selling me a Humble Bundle key for Wildstar.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
How fucking hard can it be to get people to buy games? It's not. People love to buy games, especially legit copies and even directly from the dev. People feel compelled to support devs when they:
1) Aren't whiny cunts on social media
2) Don't overprice their game
3) Make it a good goddamn game instead of some piece of shit
That's all it takes, but these indie divas are so immersed in their safe spaces that they can't understand when the free market doesn't react favorably to their 20 minute cinematic homoerotic platformic experience that is being sold at a premium price.
Really?

Stasis sold 26,911 ± 4,251, current price $10
Serpent in the Stagland sold 5,804 ± 1,974, current price $12
Telepath Tactics sold 3,694 ± 1,575, current price $7.50
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
13,999
Location
Platypus Planet
How fucking hard can it be to get people to buy games? It's not. People love to buy games, especially legit copies and even directly from the dev. People feel compelled to support devs when they:
1) Aren't whiny cunts on social media
2) Don't overprice their game
3) Make it a good goddamn game instead of some piece of shit
That's all it takes, but these indie divas are so immersed in their safe spaces that they can't understand when the free market doesn't react favorably to their 20 minute cinematic homoerotic platformic experience that is being sold at a premium price.
Really?

Stasis sold 26,911 ± 4,251, current price $10
Serpent in the Stagland sold 5,804 ± 1,974, current price $12
Telepath Tactics sold 3,694 ± 1,575, current price $7.50

So?
 

Mustawd

Guest
Assuming you're talking about Humble Bundle keys, it is forbidden to sell them.

There are other bundlers around.


Yes, really.

Bear Simulator - $14.99

The Gallery - Episode 1: Call of the Starseed - 2 hour VR game for $30 retail.

Munich Bus Simulator - $16.74 on sale. 1 owner per steamspy



They're more than aware that their site is being used for fraudulent activity. G2A just doesn't care about legal issues unless it's in the public's eye. People are unwittingly being signed up for G2A Shield subs and then being billed until they go through the painful process of unsubbing.


Shady does not mean illegal. 90% of what Facebook does is shady IMO, and they have a long history of opt out crap. So going from "they have an opt out and shitty way to cancel G2A shield" to "they are complicit in an illegal black market" is quite a leap.
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,566
Codex 2013
I'm relatively certain that in many first-world countries the way their G2A Shield subscription works is illegal. It won't fly in South Africa and we're so third world we still have lions walking in our streets.

It's hardly like it's a very clear opt-out process either. The entire thing is designed to trick you into signing up and the entire unsub process is designed to frustrate you enough to just write that 1 euro a month off. Unless you're live in potato-land, there's no way it is legal. Thankfully if you pay via PayPal you can just block that fee. And then let's not even get started on that hidden Payment Fee. PayPal informs you of it before purchasing, but credit card users only find out after they've already paid. So not only are they taking a % cut of every sale, but they're charging you a fee on top of that, not including the G2A Shield you can opt in for.

And then when you actually need their support, you get stuck in hour long queues (even for the supposedly 'premium' Shield queue) with attendants who will do everything in their power and make you jump through as many hoops as possible to deny a refund. When I had to refund Wildstar it took me a month(!) to get them to do a refund. Two weeks after they said I'd get a refund, the funds still didn't show in my credit card and I emailed them again. Supposedly there was an 'error' and it didn't go through, but they would do it immediately. The funds reflected the next morning.

No thanks. I don't blame anyone for using G2A if they're really hard up for cash, but I don't see why anyone else would take the risk. The savings are not worth the potential time I lose if I have to try and communicate (because I get the feeling they barely understand english) with G2A support to resolve issues. I'd rather not deal with the digital equivalent of a street-corner hawker asking if you'd like to buy watches he keeps in his coat. Before these chinks were doing G2A they were probably selling WoW gold.
 

Craig Stern

Sinister Design
Developer
Joined
Feb 15, 2009
Messages
398
Location
Chicago
In what universe are indie games too expensive? Indie games are like $15 or $20 at full price; that's 1/4 to 1/3 of what a typical AAA title costs these days. And that's at full price: indie games typically go on sale at least twice a year with deep discounts. Indie games are cheap as hell during Steam sales.

The fact is, this has nothing to do with price--what this comes down to is this: (1) you can get games cheap in a way that supports the developer, or (2) you can get them cheap in a way that offers them no support whatsoever and, in all likelihood, gives your money to thieves instead.

I don't care if you reflexively hate all indies or not. Maybe indies kidnapped your sister and shot your dog--maybe an ancient prophecy means the world will literally explode if you ever buy any game that isn't AAA. So only buy AAA, then. But you should still support the developers who make the games you like, whomever they may be--and that means buying from legitimate sellers, not G2A.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
35,222
Location
Merida, again
The problem with most indie games is that they are shit. Most of them aren't even worth $10, and they usually do go for more. You have to swim through waves and waves of shit to find the good stuff.
 

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