Murderous Psychopaths Needed!

[Shadenuat]

One thing also going for Block is that you can completely block Cthulhu's melee and shooting attacks and then go all Black Water liquid fire extravaganza, I couldn't do it with dodger.

 

[hivemind]

No, is not. Dodge require less combination of stats and skills, but in the long run take more damage.

Why ?
Because of the 15 point base def ?

CON is also useful in combos with the elixir, but not DEX.

And dodger can have high CON and use the elixir no problem.
The CON def bonus which 'diminishes the penalties for heavy armor' also increases the dodge chance of the character that invest into con.

 

[Mozg]

LK, do you accept that dodge is strictly superior to block in any situation if Dodge score = Block score? Like if there were a button you could push in-game that would swap your block and dodge values 1:1, you would always benefit from it if your block>dodge?

 

[Lurker King]

Why ?
Because of the 15 point base def ?

AGAIN??? We are talking about two archetypes: heavy armored blocker and the common dodger. The heavy armored block will favor STR and CON over DEX, and begin the game with a heavy armor. The common dodger begins the game with light armor (leather, manica, etc.) until he receives Al Sahir’s armor and the power armor at the end, and favors DEX over anything else. If you are a heavy armored blocker, you take less damage than a common dodger upfront, because even the damage that get across the shield won’t make much difference if you are heavy armored.

Now players look this and say: If you are a dodger, when you dodge you don’t take any damage, but when you are a blocker, when you block, you take damage. Which is completely irrational because you have to consider: (1) what is the weapon that hit your shield; (2) what it is the size and the material used in the shield; and (3) how many points in block do you have. With high block, you are not just difficult to hit as the dodger, you avoid most of the attacks without any damage with shield mastery.

And dodger can have high CON and use the elixir no problem.
The CON def bonus which 'diminishes the penalties for heavy armor' also increases the dodge chance of the character that invest into con.

Sure, but now you have to invest in DEX and CON to make your build work as intended for heavy armors, you will receive more hits than a common dodger and will have to invest in crafting, etc. All your impressions that make you feel that dodger is so superior doesn’t apply in that case anymore.

 

[Lurker King]

LK, do you accept that dodge is strictly superior to block in any situation if Dodge score = Block score? Like if there were a button you could push in-game that would swap your block and dodge values 1:1, you would always benefit from it if your block>dodge?

Of course not, because this discussion without context doesn’t make any sense! This is like arguing that a crossbow build is the best because you can make it worth with less CON and the outpost and the bandit camp are easier for him. That is a superficial way of seeing things because this build have problems in tight rooms and need to invest in PER and DEX.

 

[Disgruntled]

Spoiler

Not in contention after those 200+ scores but heres what I ended up with. Pure alchemy fire cheese to beat the arena champ and could have done the same against guardian and god I suppose.

 

[Mozg]

Of course not

I think you'll notice that the post of mine you responded to was specifically about dodge vs. block on everything but the raw numerical -defense% superiority of block.

 

[hivemind]

AGAIN??? We are talking about two archetypes: heavy armored blocker and the common dodger.

You are the only one talking about 'common archetypes' tho.
I'm talking about the skill itself regardless of the actual character builds.

My last several dodgers were with high con and reasonably heavy armor(10AP) and I never felt forsaken by my dodge superiority perceptions.

With high block, you are not just difficult to hit as the dodger, you avoid most of the attacks without any damage with shield mastery.

Yes, and with high dodge you actually deal damage back.

Sure, but now you have to invest in DEX and CON to make your build work as intended for heavy armors, you will receive more hits than a common dodger and will have to invest in crafting

This is true only in Teron and even there the big penalty didn't do that much(because of the inherent dodge superiority) from what I have seen.

As soon as you get to Maadoran you can buy honor-bound and your armor penalty gets completely overshadowed by the constitution boost. Also arena champion or Darius armours.

And about crafting, almost everyone is getting crafting these days because even a 4 int full combat character has a fuckton of SPs to spend in the lategame and unless they want to achieve some specific RP reason(templars, etc.) they are going to throw all those points into crafting/alchemy anyhow. The times when crafting was an actual investment and a build defining trait and not basically a freebie for every combat build are long gone.

 

[Lurker King]

I'm talking about the skill itself regardless of the actual character builds.

Which doesn't make any sense.

 

[Shadenuat]

Running hybrid Praetor now, wanted try heavy armor, and I gotta say heavy armor fucking sucks. Because critical hits, aimed and special hits, axes with bonus damage, maces/high Hardness weapons lowering DR in prolongued fights, poison and bleeding go right through it, you basically sacrifice what, 20% extra "dodge" for 1-2 DR, negating your own skill points invested into defensive skills? Maybe if you could at least become very durable against missiles but I played archer and know what armor piercing arrows and bolts can do.
Lightier armos tho would protect you from glancing hits almost as well, while giving you extra chance to avoid critical hits with higher DEF.
In the beginning crafted iron Praetor's+Helmet I got by killing Praetor in first quest were alright, but now in Maadoran I am going to change it for first good armor with 0-10% Armor Penalty.

 

[Tigranes]

My 200+ kill heavy armoured blocking IG disagrees. I mean, I still prefer dodge, always have, but block isn't useless and your experience with 1 character is a rather individual experience. Firstly, it's easy to invest in good armour and shield until you get something like 20DR when blocking and 12-13 when not. My tactic was literally to walk into mobs, let them surround me, and then whirlwind the hell out of them, because I would get hit 8 times a turn and lose like 1 hp total. Secondly, such blockers are obviously vulnerable to CS based opponents like Mack, but the beauty of the AOD system is that every conceivable build has its own particular weakness, and usually it is still manageable because you would normally have enough block, CON and DR combined to bum rush those usually lightly armoured CS'ers and bring them down. (Especially if you have a net or bola.)

 

[Lurker King]

Secondly, such blockers are obviously vulnerable to CS based opponents like Mack, but the beauty of the AOD system is that every conceivable build has its own particular weakness, and usually it is still manageable because you would normally have enough block, CON and DR combined to bum rush those usually lightly armoured CS'ers and bring them down. (Especially if you have a net or bola.)

This.

 

[Shadenuat]

If I'd used Crafting I would have concidered heaviest armor of best materials, but for non-crafter I'd rather go with Arena Champion's armor or Power Armor (but then later is also a gimmicky thing to get).

I still think 12-13 DR, minus armor damage, minus crits/abilities is rather low. If armors also had % based Fallout-kind of system, no matter how strange it is (more damage you take less damage you take etc sawyerism), the value of heavier armors would go up enough to concider them. As for now between 10 dr and 12-14 DR if you concider 10-20% loss of DEF I question it based on my playthrough(s).
Muh butthurt gets especially strong when in first round of combat bunch of scrubs with bronze weapons damage meh blue steel armor for 1-3 points right away.
With heaviest shield you also have less THC, meaning you do less damage, meaning you take more damage (although again, Crafting).

Btw is there any unique 1-handed spear in the game?

 

[hivemind]

Btw is there any unique 1-handed spear in the game?

Yes.
But you have to kill
< this cute piece of ass to get it.

 

[Shadenuat]

Yes.
But you have to kill
< this cute piece of ass to get it.

I don't remember who this is

 

[hivemind]

I don't remember who this is

Spoiler

Lord Darganus.

Part of a Genezzar side questline.

 

[Goral]

My stats after defeating Agathoth:

(attack is so low because I used liquid fire to defeat Aga).

377 body count. Believe it or not, 400 body count is doable, I've made some mistakes during my run (should have raised my skills a bit differently) and if I wasn't as greedy to take as many SP as possible but instead kill as many as I could it would be even higher. I have some earlier saves so I might try to improve this if I have time. I'll be surprised though if someone will manage what I've done any time soon.

 

[Jaedar]

My stats after defeating Agathoth:
(attack is so low because I used liquid fire to defeat Aga).

377 body count. Believe it or not, 400 body count is doable, I've made some mistakes during my run (should have raised my skills a bit differently) and if I wasn't as greedy to take as many SP as possible but instead kill as many as I could it would be even higher. I have some earlier saves so I might try to improve this if I have time. I'll be surprised though if someone will manage what I've done any time soon.

Why do you have 10 block AND 10 dodge?

 

[Shadenuat]

While playing hybrids and trying different armors, I found and interesting thing about AI that can make DEF more viable than DR. Maybe not on all levels of play, but sometimes. Yeah another rock from me into heavy armor.
I was fighting the first group of Meltiades thugs with only 2 Block but good body armor, while wearing weak 1DR helmet to not lose any THC. So in the first round, during all tries, their openings were exclusively aim: head doing ~12 dmg per hit to me.
So I've decided to change my load a little, pumped Block to 5, and switched iron lorica with -25 DEF to crafted leather armor from Aethelas with almost no penalties to DEF - while still keeping the helmet.
Interesting thing happened - enemies stopped using aimed attacks at all, because they concidered their THC too low for that. Or maybe they did it because my body DR became lower? Anyway, they began to only hit me with fast attacks.
But fast attacks did way less single time damage, meaning light armor was capable to shrug these attacks off, becoming as capable as heavy armor.
If only they continued to try aim: head even with low THC they could have won again, but while I still struggled with a fight my survivability actually went up because of how AI works.

Why do you have 10 block AND 10 dodge?

Dodge for using 2 handers, Block against archers and Cthulhu?

 

[hivemind]

Goral

Nice!

I'm obviously not gonna ask for your entire strats but I'd really like to know if you reloaded all the IG group fights until you got all/most killing blow ?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

My stats after defeating Agathoth:

(attack is so low because I used liquid fire to defeat Aga).

377 body count. Believe it or not, 400 body count is doable, I've made some mistakes during my run (should have raised my skills a bit differently) and if I wasn't as greedy to take as many SP as possible but instead kill as many as I could it would be even higher. I have some earlier saves so I might try to improve this if I have time. I'll be surprised though if someone will manage what I've done any time soon.

Wow, kudos. What's the secret? Are there any glitches/exploits involved? Do you kill your allies with whirlwinds?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Dodge for using 2 handers, Block against archers and Cthulhu?

For a pure melee build dodge is better against Cthulhu (non-weakened one), especially if you're on IG path and get one free Eagle Eye. You just need to avoid his 1st melee attack entirely and Dodge is far more reliable for that, then aim his arms and kill him with fast attacks and counter-attacks.

Aside from Demon in Zamedi and Cthulhu though, heavy Blocker is more reliable for most other fights, especially if you get regeneration early you'll be near unkillable (I did Haran Pass with that build and by the time last archer remained my health regenerated to full).

 

[t]

Dodge for using 2 handers, Block against archers and Cthulhu?

Still sounds like a huge waste, no?

 

[Shadenuat]

Yea I also wouldn't pump 2 defensive skills. But then with nearly ~400 kills all your SP would probably be Combat SP and you can't put them into, say, Crafting.

 

[Agesilaus]

Yea I also wouldn't pump 2 defensive skills. But then with nearly ~400 kills all your SP would probably be Combat SP and you can't put them into, say, Crafting.

There's always Critical Strike, which he left at 1, and any weapon skill synergies.