Morrowind vs Skyrim objectively

[Curious_Tongue]

I could go on.

 

[Whisky]

Skyrim has better sex mods with fully customizable animations and I can't become the sex slave of a randomly generated Khajiit bandit in Morrowind. Skyrim wins.

In all seriousness:

Hello!

Putting nostalgia glasses aside, what do you think is the objectively better RPG?

Morrowind.

Do you enjoy the dice-rolling button-smashing combat of morrowind, or the fluent slice-n-dice skyrim combat?

Neither are particularly good. Dice-rolling for hits does not really work in a first person fighting game, it just frustrates people especially with ranged weapons. Rolling for damage is fine and encouraged. Morrowind's main advantage is the options available, such as spellcrafting, but the base combat is not good.

Skyrim's combat is in essence, an improvement but does not offer enough challenge or combat strategies to keep interest aside from running around killing things.

If Bethesda wants to make it more actiony, they might as well go all the way and add combat abilities for weapons. Right now Skyrim's combat is too boring to be interesting and it being an improvement on Morrowind is not saying much.

Which world had a greater immersive quality to it? (aesthetics, emergent elements as well)

Morrowind. This is not really a contest at this point. I will give them credit for Skyrim, it is more immersive than Oblivion. That is not saying much.

Morrowind's aesthetics are top-notch with a setting that is alien and intriguing. It also succeeds in making the player feel like another Outlander unless you do the main quest; working for the Mage's Guild does not unlock some big-ass world shattering quest, you're just some dude working up the ranks.

Emergent elements, Skyrim would win, but not really. Morrowind didn't have any random encounters save for Cliff Racers helicoptering around you. Skyrim has some uninspired ones that don't really stand out. Mods fix this for Skyrim, so I guess that's a point for modded versions of the game.

Another issue with Skyrim's immersiveness is they introduce concepts that don't apply to the player for convenience, just like with DA2 and being an apostate mage that can blast fireballs everywhere and no one catches on. They say that Khajiit or Argonians aren't allowed in the city limits of certain places, but you're able to get in fine. Don't introduce something like that if it's not going to apply to you, people will notice. Morrowind avoided doing something like that, they mention Vivec city is technically off-limits to foreigners but at the same time mention it's not really enforced, removing a limitation but at the same time showing that Morrowind's traditions are more and more fragile; you will get slurs and insults from the Ordinators though.

How about the classless character progression in skyrim? Or would you rather have your character clasically "rolled" into classes?

It's not really a matter of class or not for Elder Scrolls, it's the skills and stats. Morrowind had more options for skills and stats, with Skyrim removing stats altogether except for health, magic, and stamina. I don't care about the removal of classes, but stats I do think was a mistake along with removing skills (But that's more of an Oblivion issue).

Questlines! Which game had those written better?

Morrowind. Skyrim suffers from excess in its side-quests with each one having a massive conspiracy/event and you basically get propelled to the top instantly.

Did Skyrim even have a Main Quest? Heh, I don't think I ever did it. Morrowind's main quest is repetitive, but it has interesting ideas with the prophecy, especially when it becomes obvious that everyone involved is bullshitting everyone. At first glance it's cliche, but then you realize you're basically acting as a revenge avatar for Azura against the Tribunal and after the expansion 2/3 of them are dead and the remaining one is depowered. The game never outright points out that you're her tool, just an agent of prophecy, you have to read between the lines.



I don't hate Skyrim. It's a big improvement as a game on Oblivion, but not really a better RPG. Morrowind has more lasting appeal for me though, despite the combat being absolute bullshit.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

I could go on.

For what?

 

[Curious_Tongue]

I could go on.

For what?

Diverse and interesting scenery over Oblivion and Skyrim.

 

[Xenich]

Dice-rolling for hits does not really work in a first person fighting game, it just frustrates people especially with ranged weapons.

The only people I ever saw get upset with such combat were those who were oblivious to roll based systems (ie the console players who were used to action/arcade combat systems) which is understandable as Morrowind was the first of the series to appear on that medium. Naturally people of that focus were upset about that style because they were ignorant of those types of systems that had been common on PC games for many years. They weren't used to it and it was a direct conflict with what they had become accustomed to, so... they burned it at the stake. So here we are now with the elder scroll games being nothing more than graphic whore games with action/arcade combat... like all of the other console games out there. /shrug

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I don't think anyone enjoyed that combat. The to-hit dice roll is not that hard to understand, but it's annoying because you end up dancing around the opponent swinging through him, like a shitty 90's beat'em up with poor collision detection. If the enemy can dodge by actually moving out of the way, do we need a mechanic that makes you miss even though you physically touched him? The series :declined: in some points but combat isn't one of them.

And TES were always "graphic whore" games anyway. Arena's back cover already gushes over how amazing it looks.

 

[AW8]

Curious_Tounge

I was only talking about the enviromentally different regions and wanted to address the somewhat common complaint that "Skyrim looks the same everywhere, there's snow and maybe some gray".

As for architectural variance, that's a complaint I see nowhere as often as the enviromental one, so I won't bother putting numbers next to each other to prove my point.

But I will say this: Skyrim doesn't do a bad job on this either. The screenshots you presented shows the same-looking small cities and villages that are spread across the map - that's fine. Because the 5 major cities are very visually distinct: Solitude on the rock arch with its Imperial influence, Markarth the former Dwemer city, Windhelm the ancient Nordic city, Whiterun the seat of Theoden, and Riften the city of rotting dark wood.

Better or worse than Morrowind's architectural variance? I don't care. Both do a decent job.

What's worth elaborating on though, is that enviromental and architectural variance alone does not a good game make.

Morrowind is a game of competing political groups - the Great Houses, the Imperial organizations, the Ashlander nomads etc. This struggle is mirrored in their architecture - in Telvanni land, you have giant mushrooms. In Imperial colonies, you have Imperial-style houses and imposing forts. If you are allied with Imperial interests (Hlaalu, the Imperial guilds etc.) you know you will find friends there. But if you venture to a mushroom tower, you know that you'll not be found popular by the denizens. Because the architecture is tied to its people, who share goals different from people residing in other types of architecture. That makes the world interesting, not just visually, but from a mechanical viewpoint.

As much as I like the different regions of Hlaalmarch, Eastmarch and Falkreath, there's really not much that sets them apart mechanically, because the people have no identity. Fight for the Legion? You'll maybe get an insult in Windhelm, at most. The people of Morthal and Falkreath mentions a civil war once or twice, other than that they consider Skyrim to be a united land free of political problems.

The disposition system of Morrowind isn't that much, but at least it's something. It makes Telvanni members verbally insult you, charge you more when trading, and makes it harder for you to aquire and complete some quests. It makes you associate mushroom towers with "enemy". This makes the world a whole lot more interesting.

A game that really shines at making different areas feel different (if not so much on the visual scale) is Fallout: New Vegas. People in Red Rock Canyon, Camp McCarran and The Fort have radically different ideologies and goals, and if you visit a place where you're not welcome, you won't be met with apathy, you will get shot at.

This is what Skyrim should have done with its civil war setting. Instead they made the player free to go anywhere and do anything without restriction - a design that drains the world of potential.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

One thing that is better about Skyrim (and, as a matter of fact, even Oblivion) is that the world feels much less static than Morrowinds. The NPCs walk around, talk to each other, have day and night cycles, a number of different animations (smithing, playing music, farming, etc) and so on. All this greatly improves the immersion atmosphere - which is arguably the most important aspect of TES. The NPCs in Morrowind just stand around in the same place, all day long, everyday; they are truly a bunch of creepy fucks. That they all give you the same generec wiki-dialogue does not exactly help. Dynamic NPCs and dynamism in the game world in general is really what I missed the most when I played Morrowind.

Come to think of it, I think that NPCs in Oblivion would often get into random conversations with each other when they met on the streets was a great idea in principle, even though in practice it often led to awkward situations (a la mudcrabs). But if you just took it for basic ambient backround chatter it was quite nice. NPCs in Skyrim do that rarely, I think mostly when you enter buildings such as taverns.

 

[Xenich]

I don't think anyone enjoyed that combat. The to-hit dice roll is not that hard to understand, but it's annoying because you end up dancing around the opponent swinging through him, like a shitty 90's beat'em up with poor collision detection. If the enemy can dodge by actually moving out of the way, do we need a mechanic that makes you miss even though you physically touched him? The series :declined: in some points but combat isn't one of them.

And TES were always "graphic whore" games anyway. Arena's back cover already gushes over how amazing it looks.

I enjoyed it, I knew many who did as well, but again... it all depended on your expectations. As I said, those who threw the biggest fits were those who were used to action based systems. To hit something visually and not have it "hit" was just "wrong" to them.

 

[AW8]

The NPCs in Morrowind just stand around in the same place, all day long, everyday; they are truly a bunch of creepy fucks. That they all give you the same generec wiki-dialogue does not exactly help.

Come to think of it, I think that NPCs in Oblivion would often get into random conversations with each other when they met on the streets was a great idea in principle, even though in practice it often led to awkward situations (a la mudcrabs). But if you just took it for basic ambient backround chatter it was quite nice. NPCs in Skyrim do that rarely, I think mostly when you enter buildings such as taverns.

Hilarious, terrible, pieced-together conversations (Oblivion), well-crafted conversations that repeat every time you visit, driving you nuts (Skyrim) or no conversations at all (Morrowind) - Which is better and why? Discuss!!

 

[Curious_Tongue]

No conversations.

 

[Dreaad]

One thing that is better about Skyrim (and, as a matter of fact, even Oblivion) is that the world feels much less static than Morrowinds. The NPCs walk around, talk to each other, have day and night cycles, a number of different animations (smithing, playing music, farming, etc) and so on. All this greatly improves the immersion atmosphere - which is arguably the most important aspect of TES. The NPCs in Morrowind just stand around in the same place, all day long, everyday; they are truly a bunch of creepy fucks. That they all give you the same generec wiki-dialogue does not exactly help. Dynamic NPCs and dynamism in the game world in general is really what I missed the most when I played Morrowind.

Come to think of it, I think that NPCs in Oblivion would often get into random conversations with each other when they met on the streets was a great idea in principle, even though in practice it often led to awkward situations (a la mudcrabs). But if you just took it for basic ambient backround chatter it was quite nice. NPCs in Skyrim do that rarely, I think mostly when you enter buildings such as taverns.

Oblivion (even Skyrim) better atmosphere than Morrowind.

The only reason to play Morrowind is for the atmosphere and immehhhhrsion. Skyrim you play for kek laughs as every person you meet sends you on a quest to save the universe from ancient sleeping evil. As for Oblivion

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Generic wiki dialogue is used for generic wiki subjects so it works well enough. How many different descriptions of the climate in the ascadian isles do you really need?

I enjoyed it, I knew many who did as well, but again... it all depended on your expectations. As I said, those who threw the biggest fits were those who were used to action based systems. To hit something visually and not have it "hit" was just "wrong" to them.

Well, that's the thing - it is an action based system, only with some limitations (skill, stamina) to prevent you from going where you aren't supposed to yet. Many, me among them, feel those limitations don't fit with the combat as it is presented.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Last time I tried to play Morrowind I got extremely butthurt about an orbit issue.

Namely that the goddamn modders don't bother coming up with unique names for their shit or worrying about compatibility so I had to spend three hours fixing shit and then it still crashed all the fucking time. AND nobody backed up all the rather important mods floating around, like the various magic cost calculation fixes and mods, and it took me way too much effort to find a mod that un-shits the combat a little by setting all hit chances to 100%.

I'm still butthurt about that load of wasted effort and haven't yet made a second attempt in setting up Morrowind with the 20 gig pile of mods.

 

[Drax]

I know many people hate it, but to me MW's gui was the best of the series, and the "wiki" dialog system was perfect for the kind of writing and world-building they were going for.

 

[Drax]

Last time I tried to play Morrowind I got extremely butthurt about an orbit issue.

Namely that the goddamn modders don't bother coming up with unique names for their shit or worrying about compatibility so I had to spend three hours fixing shit and then it still crashed all the fucking time. AND nobody backed up all the rather important mods floating around, like the various magic cost calculation fixes and mods, and it took me way too much effort to find a mod that un-shits the combat a little by setting all hit chances to 100%.

I'm still butthurt about that load of wasted effort and haven't yet made a second attempt in setting up Morrowind with the 20 gig pile of mods.

There is a modpack, "Morrowing Overhaul" I think, it takes care of most of the setup related to several areas of modding, while being highly configurable, maybe give that a try.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Don't use Morrowind Overhaul, it has Cloud's sword in it!

 

[Drax]

Don't use Morrowind Overhaul, it has Cloud's sword in it!

Does it? By default?

 

[Emily]

no it dosent.

 

[pippin]

My computer runs on thirdworldian potatoes, so Morrowind is objectively better for me.

However, I can see they really tried to do something in Skyrim. It actually feels better than Oblivion, but I missed the classes too much to be interested on playing more. Morrowind has more variety in almost every department, and I actually prefer wikipedia npcs which gave me the information I wanted rather than random people saying uninteresting facts about them ("I use to hunt in these lands", why do you think I care about this?). Stupid dialogue wasn't really the problem for me in Oblivion (I saw that as a source of lulz rather than anger), but it was creepy that everyone appeared to be old people and there were no kids around.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

One thing that is better about Skyrim (and, as a matter of fact, even Oblivion) is that the world feels much less static than Morrowinds. The NPCs walk around, talk to each other, have day and night cycles, a number of different animations (smithing, playing music, farming, etc) and so on. All this greatly improves the immersion atmosphere -

Oblivion (even Skyrim) better atmosphere than Morrowind.

I did not say that. I said that the world in Skyrim (and Oblivion) feels less static/more dynamic due to reasons given. That indeed improves the atmosphere by improving this specific element of it (it is however not the only element that constitutes 'atmosphere', so that does not neccessarily mean that the overall atmosphere is better).

Edited for clarification (sort of, hopefully). Twice.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

I enjoyed it, I knew many who did as well, but again... it all depended on your expectations. As I said, those who threw the biggest fits were those who were used to action based systems. To hit something visually and not have it "hit" was just "wrong" to them.

I'm reminded of the fits some players can have about invisible walls.

They can see an area, but they can't walk to it.

 

[Dreaad]

^This. It's especially amusing if you are watching an LP and you can clearly tell from the lighting/textures that an area is no go and yet somehow they still try to walk/jump/whatever there, multiple times. Maybe we've all just played too many games.

 

[Castozor]

I much prefer Morrowind because of it's setting and much larger amount of weapon/armour/magic skills and options. I liked the perk system but doing away with attributes and spell crafting where a let down to me. Skyrim obviously looks better but that's not something that's of a large importance to me so Morrowind>Skyrim by miles in my opinion.

 

[AW8]

Generic wiki dialogue is used for generic wiki subjects so it works well enough. How many different descriptions of the climate in the ascadian isles do you really need?

I know many people hate it, but to me MW's gui was the best of the series, and the "wiki" dialog system was perfect for the kind of writing and world-building they were going for.

True. People in the street have these purposes: To give directions, to tell rumors that point you in the way of quests, to bounce information back at you (low health, disease, bounty on your head), and to make the world look more alive.
No one cares about Heddvild or Dralosa Athren, so they're much more valuable as information boards rather than simulated real people.

And in quests, NPC's do have unique dialogue that gives them identity alongside the wiki information subjects. So it works pretty well.

I actually prefer wikipedia npcs which gave me the information I wanted rather than random people saying uninteresting facts about them ("I use to hunt in these lands", why do you think I care about this?).

The worst is the full voice acting wasted on this. If keeping an actor in the recording booth to say stuff like "These damn bears are driving me crazy!" isn't a waste of resources, I don't know what is. A simple fetch quest with a generic reward doesn't need full voice acting.

Stupid dialogue wasn't really the problem for me in Oblivion (I saw that as a source of lulz rather than anger)

Same, I've always found it absolutely hilarious.