Morrowind vs Skyrim objectively

[Clockwork Knight]

Can't tell if trolling or average Elder Scrolls fan

 

[DragoFireheart]

Can't tell if trolling or average Elder Scrolls fan

Better not let DraQ see that last part.

 

[Sykar]

If you cannot comprehend that a merchant who can give you 5k daily and buys any crap and is a god damn demon is not an easter egg, then yeah, might say something about your faculties up there.

Wait, who's making the strawman now?

You just set off my troll detector.

Where is the strawman?

Can't tell if trolling or average Elder Scrolls fan

Can't tell if ignorant or plain stupid. We can trade barbs like that all day long by the way.

 

[DragoFireheart]

If you cannot comprehend that a merchant who can give you 5k daily and buys any crap and is a god damn demon is not an easter egg, then yeah, might say something about your faculties up there.

Wait, who's making the strawman now?

You just set off my troll detector.

Where is the strawman?

I bolded it.

Clockwork wasn't claiming that Creeper wasn't an Easter Egg. He was clearly stating that selling to him isn't exploiting the game in anyway considering his location. He also was suggesting that being an Easter Egg isn't a good argument for "why something is ok to be imbalanced".

Something being an Easter Egg isn't a good reason to make it imbalanced. It's clear that Creeper can imbalance the game due to how much money he has, but putting him in such an obvious location was a clear design choice. Players were intended to find him and players will take advantage of him.

 

[Sykar]

If you cannot comprehend that a merchant who can give you 5k daily and buys any crap and is a god damn demon is not an easter egg, then yeah, might say something about your faculties up there.

Wait, who's making the strawman now?

You just set off my troll detector.

Where is the strawman?

I bolded it.

Clockwork wasn't claiming that Creeper wasn't an Easter Egg. He was clearly stating that selling to him isn't exploiting the game in anyway considering his location. He also was suggesting that being an Easter Egg isn't a good argument for "why something is ok to be imbalanced".

Something being an Easter Egg isn't a good reason to make it imbalanced. It's clear that Creeper can imbalance the game due to how much money he has, but putting him in such an obvious location was a clear design choice. Players were intended to find him and players will take advantage of him.

1.) I made an hypothetical statement. I didn't say it was his position.
2.) Doesn't matter how it's implemented, even if it is a terrible idea and being inside an absolutely non essential building makes him far from being "obvious".
3.) Still doesn't change the fact that it I can at least from adult players expect a modicum of intelligent behaviour and not abuse stupid shit like no tomorrow, but even if they do, at least have they the balls and stop crying the game is supposedly broken, when it was just them being derpy as fuck.

I always find it funny when so many players want responsibility, free choices etc. but then can't man up when they make choices which are plain retarded.

 

[DragoFireheart]

1.) I made an hypothetical statement. I didn't say it was his position.

2.) Doesn't matter how it's implemented, even if it is a terrible idea and being inside an absolutely non essential building makes him far from being "obvious".

In game where you are encourage to explore everywhere...

3.) Still doesn't change the fact that it I can at least from adult players expect a modicum of intelligent behaviour and not abuse stupid shit like no tomorrow, but even if they do, at least have they the balls and stop crying the game is supposedly broken, when it was just them being derpy as fuck.

I always find it funny when so many players want responsibility, free choices etc. but then can't man up when they make choices which are plain retarded.

Badly balanced game, not the fault of the designers but it's the fault of the players for playing within the rules?




You're a fucking retard.

Edit: sup Drog.

 

[Sykar]

1.) I made an hypothetical statement. I didn't say it was his position.

2.) Doesn't matter how it's implemented, even if it is a terrible idea and being inside an absolutely non essential building makes him far from being "obvious".

In game where you are encourage to explore everywhere...

3.) Still doesn't change the fact that it I can at least from adult players expect a modicum of intelligent behaviour and not abuse stupid shit like no tomorrow, but even if they do, at least have they the balls and stop crying the game is supposedly broken, when it was just them being derpy as fuck.

I always find it funny when so many players want responsibility, free choices etc. but then can't man up when they make choices which are plain retarded.

Badly balanced game, not the fault of the designers but it's the fault of the players for playing within the rules?




You're a fucking retard.

Edit: sup Drog.

Doesn't mean it's an "obvious" spot. It's not a fucking red sign over the door of the house which says "Come here retard, we got a big easter egg which is easily exploitable here".

The game is not "badly" balanced, it has some holes which can be exploited IF you actively seek it. Those exploits do not come automatically, otherwise I'd have had constant problems with them in my first few playthroughs, yet I never had.

There is a big difference between bugs and loopholes which cannot be avoided and exploits and loopholes you have to actively pursue and then yes it is your fault when you use exploits to ruin your game experience, you dumb piece of shit.

 

[DragoFireheart]

I'd continue arguing with you but unfortunately for you, you failed your Move Silently skill check. Your trolling is pretty standard, the random insults towards the end of your posts are quite banal, and tripping up with badly implemented strawman and then desperatly back pedaling makes it all too obvious.

"I made an hypothetical statement", are you fucking kidding me? Did you expect anyone to believe that shit? Bitch please, you couldn't even make a funny statement so you could get a chuckle out of me. I give you a D-, see my after class.

If you expect the Codex to be even humored by you, you've got a long ways to go grasshopper. If you expect anyone to take your arguments seriously, you may as well go back to the Bethesda forums or whatever shitty forum you came from. If you're going to respond to this post expecting a follow up from me don't waste your time. Try again in the future when I've forgotten about this current pathetic attempt.

 

[Sykar]

I'd continue arguing with you but unfortunately for you, you failed you Move Silently skill check. Your trolling is pretty standard, the random insults towards the end of your posts are quite banal, and tripping up with badly implemented strawman and then desperatly back pedaling makes it all too obvious.

"I made an hypothetical statement", are you fucking kidding me? Did you expect anyone to believe that shit? Bitch please, you couldn't even make a funny statement so you could get a chuckle out of me. I give you a D-, see my after class.

If you expect the Codex to be even humored by you, you've got a long ways to go grasshopper. If you expect anyone to take your arguments seriously, you may as well go back to the Bethesda forums or whatever shitty forum you came from. If you're going to respond to this post expecting a follow up from me don't waste your time. Try again in the future when I've forgotten about this current pathetic attempt.

I care so much what some faceless moron on a forum thinks of me. As to the future, don't bother replying to me again since you are the first on my ignore list. Congrats, live a long happy life.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Can't tell if trolling or average Elder Scrolls fan

Better not let DraQ see that last part.

DraQ is anything but average. In fact, I want to see him tear this guy a new one on the subject of Morrowind's brokeness, since I can't make him budge. DraQ, I choose you!

(Sceptic, you're second choice...err, backup)

 

[belowmecoldhands]

There is the other end as well. For instance, putting weapon skills into basic generalized categories based on the number of limbs it takes to use them is missing the point and an obvious dumbing down of the system. Anyone who has trained in weapon use knows there is a major difference between the use of various weapons. A broadsword is not the same thing as a short sword by any means and is vastly different than an axe. A common problem with some arguments concerning redundancy is that their argument is one that operates on a severe ignorance of the given skill they generalize.

There are quirks with both approaches.

"I am the master of the long sword, I can attack 10 times in the blink of an eye and cleave a human hair down the middle."
"Cool bro, take this short sword. It's about 6 inches shorter."
"Ohh fuck how do I even hold this thing?"

I guess if you determine "skill" in a weapon to be simply swinging it around, then that would be a point. Thing is, that isn't what the "skill" in a weapon means. It is understanding the weapon and knowing its strengths/weaknesses and how they are applied within combat. I can train you to fight single handed with a long blade and then hand you a short blade. You may attempt to use the short blade similarly to that of a long blade, but you immediately see the problem with such applications. Short blades have different techniques, different styles and require new mastery. So being a great wielder of a long sword doesn't make you worth a shit with a short sword.

Also, this is apparent in not only various types of blades (though some can transfer fairly well depending on make and style of the weapon), but things like if they are single or double bladed, etc... All of these things matter and one does not become a sword master because they learned how to wield one type of sword. Heck, fighting with a Katana is drastically different than that of a bastard sword and yet both are two handed/one handed weapons. A raiper and a saber are completely different in fighting styles as well.

So yes... "Ohh fuck, how do I even hold this thing" indeed. (oh and the difference between them is more than 6 inches, try about around 12-15 or so in difference.)

I know this is all "nerdy" stuff, but then... that is kind of the point of these systems, not simply to facilitate someones fantasy of make believe dress up.

Like this. Fun.

It's not just that some of what you learn in long blade might transfer to short blade but some of what you learn in short blade transfers to long blade. And this can lightly carry on even to other weapon proficiencies. Tradition cRPGs also consider your stats (like strength).

Wurm Online is somewhat like this. Here're what sword skills are like:
Swords:

Long Sword (1/3 Swords, 2/3 Long Sword)
Short Sword (1/3 Swords, 2/3 Long Sword)
Two Handed Sword (1/3 Swords, 2/3 Long Sword)​

That same patterning - where a parent skill merges with sub-skills - is used in other weapon skills. For example, the Axes parent skill has 4 sub-skills: Hatchet, Huge axe, Large axe, Small axe. Stats are also considered when determining defense/offense abilities..

However, I think it can be further "parented", like this:
One-Handed:

Swords:

Long Sword (Example: 1/6 One-Handed, 2/6 Swords, 3/6 Long Sword)
Short Sword​

Axes

Hatchet
Huge Axe
Large Axe
Small Axe​

I also want to comment that flails are a very different sort of weapon than others. They're not only very deadly (it's actually a lesson in physics), but they could be used differently because of how hte ball can go around a shield. While it's convenient for the player to just have one weapon skill, it does add a bit to the sense of immersion when there're some separate weapon skills. I agree with Xenich even skill in Short Blade is not completely transferrable to Long Blade, despite being similar skills.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Wurm Online is somewhat like this. Here're what sword skills are like:
Swords:
.... Long Sword (1/3 Swords, 2/3 Long Sword)
.... Short Sword (1/3 Swords, 2/3 Long Sword)
.... Two Handed Sword (1/3 Swords, 2/3 Long Sword)

That same patterning - where a parent skill merges with sub-skills - is used in other weapon skills. For example, the Axes parent skill has 4 sub-skills: Hatchet, Huge axe, Large axe, Small axe. Stats are also considered when determining defense/offense abilities..

However, I think it can be further "parented", like this:
One-Handed
.... Swords:
.... .... Long Sword
.... .... Short Sword
.... Axes
.... .... Hatchet
.... .... Huge Axe
.... .... Large Axe
.... .... Small Axe

That's a lot of tits.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

(...)

I understand your point, I just completely disagree with it. It seems that you expect all skills to blend into the experience, to be available and useful without any specific attention to their training. As you said, they should "blend" into the experience. Here is the thing, if by simply playing the game without attention to the skills (ie dedication to promote your selected ones) is the goal, then skills are pointless in the first place. It would be better to simply give you the full power of those skills and let you play through the games story and exploration without any need to attend to character development (maybe unlocking their powers and use at certain stages of the story when needed). While you think having to pay attention closely to a given skill, to promote it, to train it, and raise it to the level of your desire is a "failure" in a game, others see this as the point of character development. That the play is to manage the characters progression as a contest to the success and interaction within the story. The type of play that you seek reminds me of the difference between an AD&D player and a White Wolf gamer. One is focused on the rules (AD&D is a rule centric game) while the other focuses on the acting of the role with few limits in the implementation of such (the often resolve their conflicts with Ro Sham Bo). The goals of each system are dramatically different. The question is if Morrowind was supposed to be the former or the later, or a mix. Personally, I think a cRPG has always been a focus of the "Game" aspect of play (ie rule systems and overcoming the rules through clever applications of them), not the LARPing type of interaction that you see in White Wolf games (that is, unless the game goes out of its way to achieve that, ie Bloodlines).

When I say "blended" I just mean a compelling and overlapping experience. I couldn't find a way to use Stealth which blended into anything. When I tried to use it to sneak past enemies, it broken more oftne than not. And the occassions when that would actually be useful didn't present itself often enough. And what about using sneak to get the damge bonus on the first attack? Well even then it broke oftne, even when I was behind the creature. I gues what I'm trying to tel you is it felt like sneaking was an afterthought, like they didn't relaly put a lot of thought into making it a compelling expeirence to progress it from the lower ranks to the higher ranks. Maybe some more quests for all lvl ranges wher sneaking is actually vital? Maybe Morrowind even had some of those.

Skills need content. I know Morrowind hadsome content for sneaking, I'm just not sure it was adequate. Ofc, experience varies: like that one poster here who felt he/she had to grind running, but I never felt that. So maybe some people here had a good time with sneaking. Maybe I'm even in the minority with my bad sneaking experience. I am minority sometimes, not improbable.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

If there's a long sword master called Lancelot and a peasant called Bob, who's got the same physical strength as Lancelot but who has never held anything more sophisticated than a pitchfork in his life, and they decide to have a duel with short swords, who would you put your money on?

Being trained in one weapon of course doesn't mean that you'd be equally good in using another, but it makes sense to have some kind of synergies between different skills. Lancelot would probably kill Bob the peasant with his footwork alone, but his strikes would also be more powerful, precise and better-timed with better use of his entire body and momentum instead of using just his arm to swing the blade. The same would probably apply even if Lancelot was, say, a boxer rather than someone trained with swords.

Too bad that so few RPGs do skill synergies, AoD being one of them (unless the skill system has been changed recently). If you improve a certain skill, the related skills would also improve to a lesser extent rather than them either being completely separate or just merged into one.

As I commented in my previous post, Wrum Online does some synergies, as in:
Swords

Short Sword
Long Sword
Two handed Sword
​

It also allows you to gain in Swords skill (up to 20) by chopping trees down - while gaining wood cutting skill too. You can also use Axes to chop down trees and they can also function as weapons, although not as favored. Generally, Wurm Onilne could have more synergies. It seems to drag its feet somewhat in this regard, although ti's better than some.

I've always wanted to make a RPG to explore some of these ideas, but it's a lot more work than it seems up front.

 

[madrigal]

I have seen the error of my ways, next time I find a magic sword in a Bethshit game I will throw it away because it could be too powerful for an adult gamer. Skills could be problematic too, so any combat I face I will toss a coin and if it is heads I will use the console to kill the enemy, that way it is all equal and the enemies aren't disadvantaged.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Be sure not to talk to any NPC as well, they could give you an item or a quest that you're clearly not intended to touch (but you will anyway, won't you? Fucking kids)

 

[DalekFlay]

Pay attention and realise, 'hey I can sell things to shops for more than I paid for them', so money is worthless, realise that I can buy levels so the whole level up system is pointless, pay attention to alchemy and realise that potions stack, so combat, stats and all challenge is irrelevant, but then realise it doesn't matter because combat is shit anyway and I can spend all my time being a LARPing faggot and just read the in game books, because in a good RPG the game part is not important.

Seriously.

Morrowind is one of my favorite games because I am an explorefag. It has nothing in its systems anyone should praise as HARDKORE RPG SKILLZ.

 

[Sykar]

I have seen the error of my ways, next time I find a magic sword in a Bethshit game I will throw it away because it could be too powerful for an adult gamer. Skills could be problematic too, so any combat I face I will toss a coin and if it is heads I will use the console to kill the enemy, that way it is all equal and the enemies aren't disadvantaged.

Put words into my mouth I never uttered, please. Yeah I totally said if you find a nice magic item don't use it.

Just for you again dumbass, finding stuff was never what I questioned. What I questioned was, if you intentionally and massively abuse every god damn exploit in the game and then come to the forums crying, then you are an idiot. The only time you get an excuse for exploits if you cannot avoid them. Breaking your game with Enchanting and Alchemy is perfectly avoidable since it doesn't happen normally, you really have to pursue them. Same shit with the barter bug, don't buy merchants inventory and sell it back. Sell the stuff you find and buy what you need, easy. That's also logical and RPG like bahaviour, so that bug is also easy to avoid.
Oh and yes, it is plain obvious that the Creeper and Mudcrab merchant are easter eggs. Stupid and not funny, but still are. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. So sell your stuff to actual merchants who cannot give you nearly a full price for it easily, at least not in coins.

Basically yes, Morrowind has plenty of ways to get broken, and yes I would prefer if Bethesda would have fixed it, but on the other hand, I prefer them to fix game breaking shit first which would prevent you from completing the game or add new content than fixing something any player with half a working brain cell can avoid.

Morrowind had plenty of problems with shitty AI, shitty animation, bad melee combat and only average ranged combat as a bow user and couple of more things. And of course Cliff Racers.

Be sure not to talk to any NPC as well, they could give you an item or a quest that you're clearly not intended to touch (but you will anyway, won't you? Fucking kids)

Yeah, misrepresent me some more, dipshit.

Pay attention and realise, 'hey I can sell things to shops for more than I paid for them', so money is worthless, realise that I can buy levels so the whole level up system is pointless, pay attention to alchemy and realise that potions stack, so combat, stats and all challenge is irrelevant, but then realise it doesn't matter because combat is shit anyway and I can spend all my time being a LARPing faggot and just read the in game books, because in a good RPG the game part is not important.

Seriously.

Morrowind is one of my favorite games because I am an explorefag. It has nothing in its systems anyone should praise as HARDKORE RPG SKILLZ.

Then name me a game with "HARDKORE RPG SKILLZ". Nearly every cRPG could get broken with certain talents/spells/weapons or just when you reach a high enough level.
BG and BG2 for example had easily as many exploits especially in the magic system as MW had. Stuff like quadruple Projections or triple Abi Dalzims via Trigger, idiotic AI which can't open a door and dies to a god damn Cloudkill, recharging wands by selling and buying them again, killing bosses with 20 million traps before you make them hostile (like Firkraag), backstabbing Iron Golem form for multi/dual class mage thieves, etc, stealing from merchants and selling back, summoning 50 minions from a Summon wand, etc.

Economy universally sucks in all cRPGs. Haven't seen a single cRPG which had a working and logical economy.

 

[bloodlover]

Yeah... a logical and working economy being the nr 1 reason why everyone plays RPGs. I only play games where NPCs give me a fair price for a rusty dagger and some apples.

Also, obvious troll is obvious.

 

[madrigal]

Seriously.

Morrowind is one of my favorite games because I am an explorefag. It has nothing in its systems anyone should praise as HARDKORE RPG SKILLZ.

Was there anything in particular you enjoyed about the exploration, certainly not the bland/useless items or the wiki dialogue?

 

[madrigal]

Yeah... a logical and working economy being the nr 1 reason why everyone plays RPGs. I only play games where NPCs give me a fair price for a rusty dagger and some apples.

Also, obvious troll is obvious.

I only like RPG's where I can trade 34 rubies for 50 rubies and all the merchants gold so I can then buy levels and concentrate on the story. In fact even dealing with attributes is too much of a challenge, I would prefer if Bethesda removed attributes all together.

 

[Sykar]

Yeah... a logical and working economy being the nr 1 reason why everyone plays RPGs. I only play games where NPCs give me a fair price for a rusty dagger and some apples.

Also, obvious troll is obvious.

I'm not a troll, but you are obviously lacking in reading comprehension.

 

[NotAGolfer]

BG and BG2 for example had easily as many exploits especially in the magic system as MW had. Stuff like quadruple Projections or triple Abi Dalzims via Trigger, idiotic AI which can't open a door and dies to a god damn Cloudkill, recharging wands by selling and buying them again, killing bosses with 20 million traps before you make them hostile (like Firkraag), backstabbing Iron Golem form for multi/dual class mage thieves, etc, stealing from merchants and selling back, summoning 50 minions from a Summon wand, etc.

Aww.
Now I want to replay BG trilogy again.
I love me my cheese if it's fun to do, and these games aren't a cakewalk even if you use cheese tactics, because linear progression instead of open world makes balancing easy.
Heck, I love to cheese in general, loved it in Morrowind too til it got mind-numbingly boring because I was a god and they were puny little creatures that were supposed to be powerful instead of roflstomp material.

 

[Sykar]

BG and BG2 for example had easily as many exploits especially in the magic system as MW had. Stuff like quadruple Projections or triple Abi Dalzims via Trigger, idiotic AI which can't open a door and dies to a god damn Cloudkill, recharging wands by selling and buying them again, killing bosses with 20 million traps before you make them hostile (like Firkraag), backstabbing Iron Golem form for multi/dual class mage thieves, etc, stealing from merchants and selling back, summoning 50 minions from a Summon wand, etc.

Aww.
Now I want to replay BG trilogy again.
I love me my cheese if it's fun to do (heck, I love to cheese in general, loved it in Morrowind too til it got mind-numbingly boring because I was a god and they were puny little creatures that were supposed to be powerful instead of roflstomp material), and these games aren't a cakewalk even if you use cheese tactics, because linear progression instead of open world makes balancing easy.

That might be so, but the game is surely harder without them. Neverthless, I do not care when people using exploits or cheating in a single player game, as long as they do not come to forums and complain about a game being shit when they were abusing the crap out of every exploit/bug/cheat present in it.

 

[NotAGolfer]

I wouldn't complain the slightest about Morrowind being broken, were there not people like you who defend it as some kind of hardcore char skill based CRPG of old times. It is not, it is balanced for explorefags like DalekFlay to enjoy without scaring them off at every corner because the area they entered is too high level for them. Huge difference to the Gothics for example, but deliberately so, because story progression there was more linear.
I guess I have a slight problem with the Bethesda formula, and therefore Skyrim is actually an improvement for my taste, because it was more levelscaled but not to the point of making char leveling redundant.
I still prefer deleveling mods like ASIS encounter zones though, but they tend to interfere with quest progression in a completely open world game with radiant (read: random) quest dungeon locations, which is why Bethesda obviously didn't choose that approach.