Morrowind vs Skyrim objectively

[Xenich]

Surely a badass warrior can make use of his vast experience with longswords and adapt accordingly when using a dagger or a short axe? At least he isn't going to stab himself on the crotch.

I agree on most one-handed weapons, but I do think daggers should be a separate skill. It makes sense because the technique would be different (going for soft spots, having less effective parrying) and it would define rogues more as a class.

The technique is different with many blades, not just daggers to swords. As for parrying? Seriously? Ever hear of a Parrying Dagger?

Honestly, go look up the tons of information about weapons and the various techniques of their use.

I am not trying to be insulting, but this is the problem with the issue. People don't know much about the technical aspects of the skills modeled in the games they wish to generalize in.

That is fine and all, some people just want to wear the clothes, look cool, and make believe (My friend loved going to the SCA events to wear the gear and play act, but he didn't want to learn anything about the armor, weapons, the fighting styles, etc... so he was just some idiot walking around in gear). That said, some of us like the details and trying to bring some realism to the games we play in all the aspects of its design. Role playing isn't just dress-up.

 

[Carrion]

If there's a long sword master called Lancelot and a peasant called Bob, who's got the same physical strength as Lancelot but who has never held anything more sophisticated than a pitchfork in his life, and they decide to have a duel with short swords, who would you put your money on?

Being trained in one weapon of course doesn't mean that you'd be equally good in using another, but it makes sense to have some kind of synergies between different skills. Lancelot would probably kill Bob the peasant with his footwork alone, but his strikes would also be more powerful, precise and better-timed with better use of his entire body and momentum instead of using just his arm to swing the blade. The same would probably apply even if Lancelot was, say, a boxer rather than someone trained with swords.

Too bad that so few RPGs do skill synergies, AoD being one of them (unless the skill system has been changed recently). If you improve a certain skill, the related skills would also improve to a lesser extent rather than them either being completely separate or just merged into one.

 

[DalekFlay]

The technique is different with many blades, not just daggers to swords. As for parrying? Seriously? Ever hear of a Parrying Dagger?

Honestly, go look up the tons of information about weapons and the various techniques of their use.

I am not trying to be insulting, but this is the problem with the issue. People don't know much about the technical aspects of the skills modeled in the games they wish to generalize in.

That is fine and all, some people just want to wear the clothes, look cool, and make believe (My friend loved going to the SCA events to wear the gear and play act, but he didn't want to learn anything about the armor, weapons, the fighting styles, etc... so he was just some idiot walking around in gear). That said, some of us like the details and trying to bring some realism to the games we play in all the aspects of its design. Role playing isn't just dress-up.

I'm not looking for realism at all, thanks. I'm looking for good gamplay. In-game parrying is different (or impossible) with a dagger, and a separate skill tree for daggers would define rogues more. In-game all lengthy one-handed weapons are virtually identical though, and a skill tree for each would be overdoing it.

 

[Xenich]

I'm not looking for realism at all, thanks. I'm looking for good gamplay. In-game parrying is different (or impossible) with a dagger, and a separate skill tree for daggers would define rogues more. In-game all lengthy one-handed weapons are virtually identical though, and a skill tree for each would be overdoing it.

This was not a discussion line about realism or about overdoing it, it was a response to the argument that the skills were redundant.

The skills are not redundant, they differ greatly unless one is ignorant. You may not care, you may be only interested in playing dress-up, but some of us like playing games, not simply LARPing around pointlessly.

BTW, many games of old did have multiple skills for different weapons. Much more sub-grouped than they are today. Things only changed when they started dumbing down things over the year to appeal to those who want to be "entertained" over actually playing a game. I mean, all those skills, what would an idiot do if they actually had to think that much? Why it would get in the way of having "Fun"!

 

[Xenich]

If there's a long sword master called Lancelot and a peasant called Bob, who's got the same physical strength as Lancelot but who has never held anything more sophisticated than a pitchfork in his life, and they decide to have a duel with short swords, who would you put your money on?

Being trained in one weapon of course doesn't mean that you'd be equally good in using another, but it makes sense to have some kind of synergies between different skills. Lancelot would probably kill Bob the peasant with his footwork alone, but his strikes would also be more powerful, precise and better-timed with better use of his entire body and momentum instead of using just his arm to swing the blade. The same would probably apply even if Lancelot was, say, a boxer rather than someone trained with swords.

Too bad that so few RPGs do skill synergies, AoD being one of them (unless the skill system has been changed recently). If you improve a certain skill, the related skills would also improve to a lesser extent rather than them either being completely separate or just merged into one.

Unfortunately, today's gamer generation could be satisfied with the complexity of weapons being called "thingy" so any attempt at complexity will be shot down through ignorant arguments about how they just want to LARP around without those pesky restrictions.

*You swing at baddie for some unimportant damage*
*Baddie hits you but your stuff keeps you from taking unimportant damage*
*You kill baddie with your thingy! and can now go and LARP uninterrupted for many hours!"

 

[DalekFlay]

This was not a discussion line about realism or about overdoing it, it was a response to the argument that the skills were redundant.

The skills are not redundant, they differ greatly unless one is ignorant. You may not care, you may be only interested in playing dress-up, but some of us like playing games, not simply LARPing around pointlessly.

BTW, many games of old did have multiple skills for different weapons. Much more sub-grouped than they are today. Things only changed when they started dumbing down things over the year to appeal to those who want to be "entertained" over actually playing a game. I mean, all those skills, what would an idiot do if they actually had to think that much? Why it would get in the way of having "Fun"!

Christ you're annoying with this holier than thou shit. You're on a CRPG enthusiast forum, you don't have to go around strutting your fucking tail-feathers like you're talking to a bunch of Xbox gamers.

In theory you could have a skill tree for running and a stamina bar for sprinting that lasts like 3 seconds in armor. In theory you could gain health over in-game months rather than seconds and never, ever revive dead party members. In theory quick-save should never exist because there's no quick-save in real life and it fosters save-scumming. In theory armor and shields shouldn't protect you from fucking fire or assassin arrows. In theory magic doesn't even fucking exist. This kind of shit could literally go on for fucking ever. In the end games are about balancing depth and "realism" with the gameplay elements to find a nice balance.

While I adored Morrowind's skill list at the end of the day swords and one-handed axes in that game are identical gameplay wise, so I don't think condensing them is a big fucking deal. Daggers however require a different gameplay approach, and it would also define rogues more to pick a dagger skill over a sword skill, so I wish they still had a place in TES skill trees.

 

[Pots Talos]

While I adored Morrowind's skill list at the end of the day swords and one-handed axes in that game are identical gameplay wise, so I don't think condensing them is a big fucking deal. Daggers however require a different gameplay approach, and it would also define rogues more to pick a dagger skill over a sword skill, so I wish they still had a place in TES skill trees.

Swords and axes are identical gameplay wise but that is the fault of the developers. Daggers are identical in TES also except they swing faster, so why should it get special treatment?

 

[Xenich]

This was not a discussion line about realism or about overdoing it, it was a response to the argument that the skills were redundant.

The skills are not redundant, they differ greatly unless one is ignorant. You may not care, you may be only interested in playing dress-up, but some of us like playing games, not simply LARPing around pointlessly.

BTW, many games of old did have multiple skills for different weapons. Much more sub-grouped than they are today. Things only changed when they started dumbing down things over the year to appeal to those who want to be "entertained" over actually playing a game. I mean, all those skills, what would an idiot do if they actually had to think that much? Why it would get in the way of having "Fun"!

Christ you're annoying with this holier than thou shit. You're on a CRPG enthusiast forum, you don't have to go around strutting your fucking tail-feathers like you're talking to a bunch of Xbox gamers.

In theory you could have a skill tree for running and a stamina bar for sprinting that lasts like 3 seconds in armor. In theory you could gain health over in-game months rather than seconds and never, ever revive dead party members. In theory quick-save should never exist because there's no quick-save in real life and it fosters save-scumming. In theory armor and shields shouldn't protect you from fucking fire or assassin arrows. In theory magic doesn't even fucking exist. This kind of shit could literally go on for fucking ever. In the end games are about balancing depth and "realism" with the gameplay elements to find a nice balance.

While I adored Morrowind's skill list at the end of the day swords and one-handed axes in that game are identical gameplay wise, so I don't think condensing them is a big fucking deal. Daggers however require a different gameplay approach, and it would also define rogues more to pick a dagger skill over a sword skill, so I wish they still had a place in TES skill trees.

/shakes head.

The issue here is that you were arguing for dumbed down mechanics. Now you are trying to move the goal posts and argue as if I was demanding that we manage how many hairs on the characters ass. Your argument is fucking invalid, which is why you had to switch it from "I don't care about reality, a weapon is a weapon" generic shit to now trying to claim I was demanding we micromanage ridiculous shit like "In theory you could gain health over in-game months rather than seconds and never". Face the fucking facts that you like dumbed down systems and you are an ignorant fuck about the argument you were making (ie you fucking don't know shit about RL weapons and what it takes to fucking wield them). There is no redundancy in a weapon system unless you are a fucking LARPing neckbeard wannabee who "Role Plays" as a "serious cRPG gamer on Codex".

You are the fucking problem. It is pathetic fucking twits like you who have demanded these games be dumbed down because you are too fucking stupid to know as to WHY there is a difference between elements and selection in systems. Now you could at least make an argument like some by saying that "Morrowind" did a poor job differentiating between those skills and that they could be improved with different mechanics, but you went on like a fucking ignorant console gamer about how "Derp Derp... a dagger is like a sword... derp derp!" and then CONTINUED to argue against logic that showed otherwise and then to cap it off, gave the fucking retarded LARPing console gamer excuse of " I'm not looking for realism at all, thanks. I'm looking for good game play." which really translates to "I am too fucking stupid to deal with anything complex, give me the fancy graphics and roll my face over combat systems, thanks!"

I mean, for fucks sake, what the fuck is wrong with you fools? Has the educational system dumbed things down so much that you guys can't even fucking make a coherent argument anymore outside of "what it means to me" fucking bull shit? Humanity is doomed, seriously, we are fucked if you are supposed to be an example of the "elitist gaming crowd on an elitist site". I mean, if you are "elitist", the rest of society out there must still be scooping up each others shit and eating it.

Seriously, WTF!

 

[Xenich]

While I adored Morrowind's skill list at the end of the day swords and one-handed axes in that game are identical gameplay wise, so I don't think condensing them is a big fucking deal. Daggers however require a different gameplay approach, and it would also define rogues more to pick a dagger skill over a sword skill, so I wish they still had a place in TES skill trees.

Swords and axes are identical gameplay wise but that is the fault of the developers. Daggers are identical in TES also except they swing faster, so why should it get special treatment?

I remember years ago using a Morrowind mod that really changed all the aspects of weapon skills, giving each one dramatic differences (strengths/weaknesses) through skill/itemization changes. It really was rather cool as it made weapon selection a part of play (much more than vanilla that is)

 

[Clockwork Knight]

 

[Xenich]

Oh don't act like a fucktard Clockwork Knight, you are just butthurt because you were making the same stupid fucking argument. At least they had the balls to man up and argue with me, you... well.... you were slapped down like a little bitch and then came in after the fact to make a one liner. Pull out the guns, or choke on the barrel and pull the trigger you little turd. (incase you are too fucking stupid, argue are blow off scrub!)

 

[Clockwork Knight]

>quoting and tagging at the same time
>imploding at the slightest disagreement
>feces





...hiver?

 

[Zyryanoff]

I think problem with magic in general in these types of games is how easy you can get it. You just buy a spell for 200 gold and that is it, you just somehow know all these skills without any context and it is really immersion breaking if I might add. Not only that, but even if you are thief you can still somehow move your arms and train restoration, just fucking how? Magic should be handled differently in my opinion, and non mage characters should only get scrolls if even that.
Now compare that to Gothic 2, where you first need to enter the monastery by bringing a sizable offering and a sheep, and then you must first be a Novice, and only then after a lot of effort and hard work(and finishing a deadly challenge I might add) you get the privilege of being trained in magic, just trained, you don't magically know everything (pun intended).

Totally agree

 

[Xenich]

>quoting and tagging at the same time
>imploding at the slightest disagreement
>feces

...hiver?

Nah, last I saw him he was over in the D:OS forums.

I just get a little intolerant of people who while attempting to argue a balanced means show obvious signs of being LARPing addicts. IMHO, I think they are one of the big reasons as to why there is a decline.

Notice how there is a continued reasoning to justify TES being dumbed down, not an attempt to rectify the problems within the game.

So rather than saying "Yeah, Bethesda dropped the ball, they should have differentiated the skill this way... " they say "It makes sense they eliminated the skill and condensed it with the others" as if somehow that was the better move.

I remember seeing the forums during Morrowinds release, the arguments over the issues with some skills, the requests that they be changed or future projects better delineate between the skills to give deeper play. They were drowned out by many of the posts I see here. So yea. fucktards... big time.

 

[Zyryanoff]

I think in Skyrim easy way of gaining absolute power in all skills is the most important issue. I hope that someday we will have some kind of "short-lasting proficiency" in RPGs: if you use any skills rarely they must be lowered to some "middle" value. So you hardly can be allaround superhero of alltimes - you should practice regularly to keep in good shape.

 

[Xenich]

I think in Skyrim easy way of gaining absolute power in all skills is the most important issue. I hope that someday we will have some kind of "short-lasting proficiency" in RPGs: if you use any skills rarely they must be lowered to some "middle" value. So you hardly can be allaround superhero of alltimes - you should practice regularly to keep in good shape.

Yeah, I would like to see 1) a large increase of skills that have differences in selection and use. 2) a limited means to obtain skills (ie you can't master them all, you WILL have to pick and choose as you develop).

Do that, with no fucking respec shit in game, make them cheat if they want that (seriously fucktards, learn how to plan or maybe an atrophy system similar to UO might be workable) and multiple avenues, but a weight of consequences on the choices made. I am sick of games where every option has to be a winner and every choice has to be rewarded equally. If people can't accept that, they just want to be entertained through mind numbing actions and if that is the case.... there are numerous fucktard mobile games ----> that way.

 

[DalekFlay]

/shakes head.

The issue here is that you were arguing for dumbed down mechanics. Now you are trying to move the goal posts and argue as if I was demanding that we manage how many hairs on the characters ass. Your argument is fucking invalid, which is why you had to switch it from "I don't care about reality, a weapon is a weapon" generic shit to now trying to claim I was demanding we micromanage ridiculous shit like "In theory you could gain health over in-game months rather than seconds and never". Face the fucking facts that you like dumbed down systems and you are an ignorant fuck about the argument you were making (ie you fucking don't know shit about RL weapons and what it takes to fucking wield them). There is no redundancy in a weapon system unless you are a fucking LARPing neckbeard wannabee who "Role Plays" as a "serious cRPG gamer on Codex".

You are the fucking problem. It is pathetic fucking twits like you who have demanded these games be dumbed down because you are too fucking stupid to know as to WHY there is a difference between elements and selection in systems. Now you could at least make an argument like some by saying that "Morrowind" did a poor job differentiating between those skills and that they could be improved with different mechanics, but you went on like a fucking ignorant console gamer about how "Derp Derp... a dagger is like a sword... derp derp!" and then CONTINUED to argue against logic that showed otherwise and then to cap it off, gave the fucking retarded LARPing console gamer excuse of " I'm not looking for realism at all, thanks. I'm looking for good game play." which really translates to "I am too fucking stupid to deal with anything complex, give me the fancy graphics and roll my face over combat systems, thanks!"

I mean, for fucks sake, what the fuck is wrong with you fools? Has the educational system dumbed things down so much that you guys can't even fucking make a coherent argument anymore outside of "what it means to me" fucking bull shit? Humanity is doomed, seriously, we are fucked if you are supposed to be an example of the "elitist gaming crowd on an elitist site". I mean, if you are "elitist", the rest of society out there must still be scooping up each others shit and eating it.

Seriously, WTF!

As amusing as you are, I think I will just back away slowly and let you explode.

 

[Xenich]

/shakes head.

The issue here is that you were arguing for dumbed down mechanics. Now you are trying to move the goal posts and argue as if I was demanding that we manage how many hairs on the characters ass. Your argument is fucking invalid, which is why you had to switch it from "I don't care about reality, a weapon is a weapon" generic shit to now trying to claim I was demanding we micromanage ridiculous shit like "In theory you could gain health over in-game months rather than seconds and never". Face the fucking facts that you like dumbed down systems and you are an ignorant fuck about the argument you were making (ie you fucking don't know shit about RL weapons and what it takes to fucking wield them). There is no redundancy in a weapon system unless you are a fucking LARPing neckbeard wannabee who "Role Plays" as a "serious cRPG gamer on Codex".

You are the fucking problem. It is pathetic fucking twits like you who have demanded these games be dumbed down because you are too fucking stupid to know as to WHY there is a difference between elements and selection in systems. Now you could at least make an argument like some by saying that "Morrowind" did a poor job differentiating between those skills and that they could be improved with different mechanics, but you went on like a fucking ignorant console gamer about how "Derp Derp... a dagger is like a sword... derp derp!" and then CONTINUED to argue against logic that showed otherwise and then to cap it off, gave the fucking retarded LARPing console gamer excuse of " I'm not looking for realism at all, thanks. I'm looking for good game play." which really translates to "I am too fucking stupid to deal with anything complex, give me the fancy graphics and roll my face over combat systems, thanks!"

I mean, for fucks sake, what the fuck is wrong with you fools? Has the educational system dumbed things down so much that you guys can't even fucking make a coherent argument anymore outside of "what it means to me" fucking bull shit? Humanity is doomed, seriously, we are fucked if you are supposed to be an example of the "elitist gaming crowd on an elitist site". I mean, if you are "elitist", the rest of society out there must still be scooping up each others shit and eating it.

Seriously, WTF!

As amusing as you are, I think I will just back away slowly and let you explode.

Admit defeat however you choose, it matters not to me. /shrug

 

[DalekFlay]

Admit defeat however you choose, it matters not to me. /shrug

There's no defeat because there's no debate. You're not actually addressing my points or those of anyone else, you just keep repeating FUCKING CONSUL NOOBZ over and over at people who probably don't even own consoles. You keep complaining about dumbing down to people that have bitched about the same shit on this forum for a decade. It's amusing.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Nah, last I saw him he was over in the D:OS forums.

I just get a little intolerant of people who while attempting to argue a balanced means show obvious signs of being LARPing addicts. IMHO, I think they are one of the big reasons as to why there is a decline. [...]

The decline comes from stuff like adding a giant green arrow on the top of the screen telling you where to go, not from having a shortsword and a longsword use the same skill on their attack roll.

The reason we disagree seems to be that you believe they are catering to scrubs who don't understand a shortsword is not just a little longsword, while I see number of skills as a design choice that can be good or shit depending on how it's handled. For example, there's FNV which condensed the "Small Guns" and "Big Guns" from FO3 into "Guns" and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. Both the 9mm pistol and the minigun depend on Agility, but the latter has a big Strength requirement as well.

 

[Xenich]

Admit defeat however you choose, it matters not to me. /shrug

There's no defeat because there's no debate. You're not actually addressing my points or those of anyone else, you just keep repeating FUCKING CONSUL NOOBZ over and over at people who probably don't even own consoles. You keep complaining about dumbing down to people that have bitched about the same shit on this forum for a decade. It's amusing.

So edgy, so misunderstood. Go lament over the tragedy of it all at the local Starbucks.

 

[Sykar]

Skyrim: Follow-the-compass-hiking-meaningless-stats-simulator

Morrowind: Actually pay fucking attention to the game.

 

[Akratus]

I think in Skyrim easy way of gaining absolute power in all skills is the most important issue. I hope that someday we will have some kind of "short-lasting proficiency" in RPGs: if you use any skills rarely they must be lowered to some "middle" value. So you hardly can be allaround superhero of alltimes - you should practice regularly to keep in good shape.

Yeah, I would like to see 1) a large increase of skills that have differences in selection and use. 2) a limited means to obtain skills (ie you can't master them all, you WILL have to pick and choose as you develop).

Do that, with no fucking respec shit in game, make them cheat if they want that (seriously fucktards, learn how to plan or maybe an atrophy system similar to UO might be workable) and multiple avenues, but a weight of consequences on the choices made. I am sick of games where every option has to be a winner and every choice has to be rewarded equally. If people can't accept that, they just want to be entertained through mind numbing actions and if that is the case.... there are numerous fucktard mobile games ----> that way.

How about having the total amount of accumulated skill points reduce the rate at which new ones are gained? So that the last skill you master takes 10 times as long as the first.

 

[Osvir]

"I used to be an Elder Scroller just like you, until I took a Wizardry to the knee"

 

[Xenich]

I think in Skyrim easy way of gaining absolute power in all skills is the most important issue. I hope that someday we will have some kind of "short-lasting proficiency" in RPGs: if you use any skills rarely they must be lowered to some "middle" value. So you hardly can be allaround superhero of alltimes - you should practice regularly to keep in good shape.

Yeah, I would like to see 1) a large increase of skills that have differences in selection and use. 2) a limited means to obtain skills (ie you can't master them all, you WILL have to pick and choose as you develop).

Do that, with no fucking respec shit in game, make them cheat if they want that (seriously fucktards, learn how to plan or maybe an atrophy system similar to UO might be workable) and multiple avenues, but a weight of consequences on the choices made. I am sick of games where every option has to be a winner and every choice has to be rewarded equally. If people can't accept that, they just want to be entertained through mind numbing actions and if that is the case.... there are numerous fucktard mobile games ----> that way.

How about having the total amount of accumulated skill points reduce the rate at which new ones are gained? So that the last skill you master takes 10 times as long as the first.

It might work, though a hard cap works as well. Obviously whatever system is used it would need to be tested to to catch any unseen results of its implementation. Not sure how I feel though about grinding based deterrents.