Morrowind vs Skyrim objectively

[belowmecoldhands]

One last thing. These're the skills which were lost (not merged, not renamed) from Daggerfall to Skyrim:
Athletics (running/swimming), Medium Armor, Medical, Languages (9 of them), Climbing, Armorer,
Hand-to-hand, Acrobatics (jumping), Unarmored, Dodging, Critical Striking, Spear

Spear really doesn't belong there, now that I think about it. I can't edit the post anymore.

Now, of those, I think the only ones that MATTER to me are Languages and Climbing. Languages give you a way to avoid monsters in a dungeon without having to fight them. Climbing is very interesting in Daggerfall; like jumping/levitate is non-linear travel. The rest are give and take. Ones which show promise to me are Acrobatics and Athletics and Unarmored and possibly Armorer. Hand-to-hand, Medium Armor, Dodging and Critical Strike are iffy and could be merged into others easily.

Now, if it were me, I'd probably just get rid of Spear. This doesn't mean not having Spear weapons in the game. It means use One-Handed or Two-Handed as the skill. I'd combine Acrobatics and Athletics and Climbing. I'd not bother with dodging, since it could be merged into the armor/unarmored skills. Critical Strike could be merged into the One/Two-Handed skills.

Oh, and Medical is fluff. All it does in Daggerfall is increase HP regen when you rest. In Daggerfall it's important, at least early on. Later you get healing spells and potions to take care of that, although you still need to rest.

So I'd keep these ones probably:
Armorer (yes, this means introducing armor repair into Skyrim)
Athletics/Acrobatics/Climbing (combined)
Unarmored
Languages (9 of them)

I'd merge/drop these:
Medical
Critical Striking
Dodging
Medium Armor
Hand-to-hand
Spear

I know a lot of people probably aren't keen on running/swimming/jumping being skills. Frankly, they don't HAVE to be there. The game can supply potions/spells/perks/etc to provide these things. Same for climbing or dodging or critical striking.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Dunno, all I ever did in Morrowind when I didn't just optimize my char (which was the only interesting thing imo) was running around and hacking and slashing at enemies.

AD&D had a lot of that, in fact it was the entire play progression and point. develop characters, throw them in an environment and see how that planning and development did within the world (of course with some player choice and guidance). That is what character development games are all about. Your physical action of hitting your button to swing over and over didn't make it an action game. It may have felt like that (which was likely some of the point, make it feel like you are a part of the action), but as I mentioned earlier, your "hacking and slashing" did not change the course of a battle (other than increasing your skill through use allowing you to get better at a given skill).

Only that running around was a lot more frustrating at first because of snail like running speed, therefore on later attempts (never finished the game, was too bored too early, same problem as with every Bethesda game except Daggerfall) I always went for those boots with the blinding side effect first.

Again, the point of a skill game progression. You develop skills over time. Your attention to improving them affects the outcome of your development. What you choose to focus on and how you choose to implement it will decide your success in the game. What was actually a game development mechanic was considered "inconvenient" and "boring" as you seem to describe, but that is how these systems work. I loved the fact that I was slow, weak, etc... in Morrowind. It made the success of character development all the more satisfying. If you didn't like it, it wasn't because the game "sucked", it was because you don't like character development systems that truly are a "game" (ie your choices in such will improve or hurt you).
(..)

Sorry I don't wan to comment your entire post, just this part above. And I run the risk of burying my previous two posts quicker on the progression of skills from Daggerfall to Skyrim. However, I just fel like saying something right now and not waiting on it.

A big part of RPGs for me is the character development system. I like to figure it out. I like the feel of progressing the character, even if that means running slow at first and not gaining a whole lot with high run/athletic/etc skill. The important thing is my character gets better. So here I agree with you.

But more than all of that, I DO like to insert myself into it. I like to use my OWN skills, just like NotAGolfder is trying to say. Sometimes a mountain of stats/skills can get in your way and make the game feel like a numbers game rather than an adventure. I think there's nothing about progression in stats/numbers that can fundamentally stop us from enjoying the game. Running slow doesn't inherently stop you from enjoying it. Having an abysmal sword skill doesn't stop it. Having to retrain because you trained hte wrong skill won't stop it. Having to go back to town because you didn't bring the right tool won't stop it. What DOES stop you from enjoying it is when there's nothing interesting to overcome. Standing in one place running against a wall to increase run skill is not interesting and any RPG which relies on it has failed. An RPG has failed if you must move like a snail to get somewhere where you can actually do something, like fight or sell or talk to NPCs or collect something.

So I disagree with you. RPGs aren't about their stats/skills, although those are a part of defining your character. RPGs are about interesting problems and immersing yourself in them to mold yourself a castle in the clouds. Without interesting things, RPGs are just deep number systems, and unless you're excited at tweaking numbers alone, you won't be compelled to play.

What're intresting things? Characters and world, mostly. And what we can do with them. More abstractly, I think anything which isn't too monotonous. Then agin, I also think we all have different tolerances. I've never had any trouble with the travel;ing in Morrowind, for example. I like to run around, or something. However, maybe I never played long enough to be bothered by travelling in Morrowind. My point really is to say not all of us agree on this point. I think different people can feel bored by different things. Still, generally, running against a wall to increase runspeed is NOT fun for anyone.

I want to give an example of something I did in Morrowind. I still feel ashamed. I grinded Sneak!! I tried to use it naturally to raise it, but wo things happened: a) raises too slow b) opponents break sneak too oftne at lower skills. I never felt while using sneak it was HELPING me. It was breaking far too often to enjoy it. To top it all off, even when it was very high it broke often. I still feel today it was a broken system. Perhaps I played it wrong, but that's how I felt back then. I was very dissatisfied. Of course, I still admire Morrowind greatly. There's soooo much I haven't seen in it. I'ts a very strange world.

I'll give another example, but from a different game altogether. It's from Wurm Online. In that game, I play on Chaos. It has steep slopes versus most other maps. This means lots of climbing in some places. There's a climbinb skill which can increase the speed you climb and reduce stamina drain. Now, my climb skill in that game is very very low. I've climbed a lot, but the skill raises so slowly. The good thing is it hasn't mattered yet. I've enver encountered a place where my climbing skill stopped me from doing something. Now, climbing skill might have made it easier a few times, since you exhaust stamina faster with low skill, but honestly, I've never noticed. If climbing skill were required to climb AT ALL, then it'd be more like my experience with Sneak in Morrowind.

My point with the previous paragraph is excessively slow skill gain doesn't mean you always must grind it. Granted, by grinding it I'd gain it a lot faster. Yet I have no NEED to do that. Yes there're cliffs I can't climb, but who cares? Anything I actually desire to climb I can get the job done. And there's soooo much else to do in the game than just climbing.

 

[Turrul]

*Removed Language skills from Daggerfall

Wish they kept them, it would've been interesting in later TES games.

Seems like decline is with us longer than 21st century, it is with us since the dawn of time.

 

[DalekFlay]

More interesting non-combat skills in Oblivion and Skyrim would have required more interesting non-combat content in those games.

 

[Lilura]

I've never had any trouble with the travel;ing in Morrowind, for example. I like to run around, or something. However, maybe I never played long enough to be bothered by travelling in Morrowind.

Glad I took you off my ignore list. Your posts make me yawn loudly. I need a cure for my insomnia, so thanks. Good to see you didn't have any trouble with travel in Morrowind: pity your reason is you like to "run around", cuz Morrowind has many means of travel in addition to running. So it's the opposite to what you imply: the more one plays MW, the fewer probs they should have with travel. Please make a travel count comparison list now, so that I may fall asleep.

 

[DalekFlay]

For me Morrowind had the best traveling mechanics in any 3D RPG. Could go back to town at any time, could travel between towns easily, but if your destination is out in the fucking boonies then into the boonies you go. Loved that. Also, as an occasional immersionfag, I liked that everything felt in-world and lore consistent. In Oblivion there aren't even fucking carriages in the Imperial City. Or people, but I guess that's another debate altogether.

 

[Emily]

well you had fast travel, kinda making it pointless

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fast travel can't take you to unknown places, though. In a way, it's easier to move around in MW.

*Removed Language skills from Daggerfall

Wish they kept them, it would've been interesting in later TES games.

Seems like decline is with us longer than 21st century, it is with us since the dawn of time.

Calm spells make those skills redundant, like levitation did with climbing (of course, they eventually removed levitation as well )

 

[Lilura]

Oblivion fast travel foolishly undermined one of TES's strengths: exploration. Morrowind strengthened it's mechanics, lore and exploration by having several means of transportation.

 

[abnaxus]

Admittedly in a first run you wouldn't know about Umbra until you stumbled across him, but the point is that design is all over the game.

NPCs in Suran may tell you about a weird Orc on a mountain if you click "rumors".

 

[DalekFlay]

well you had fast travel, kinda making it pointless

Sure, but for flavor and IMMERSHUN they should definitely have showed some kind of transit system for the world they built. The NPCs who travel between towns in Oblivion fucking walk the whole way. Insanity. Like Lilura just said, they undercut their own biggest strength: exploration and immersion. In Skyrim there are carriages and boats, even if you never actually need to use them.

It all goes back to Oblivion's actual issue, which is pushing for next-gen console launch success at the cost of a ton of other things. Which worked out for them financially, so they could give a fuck about my complaints.

 

[Lilura]

Fast travel can't take you to unknown places, though. In a way, it's easier to move around in MW.

Divine Intervention, ftw. You're in over your head in some dungeon, you intervene out and find yourself half-an-island away, but at least you're safe.

And getting from one place to another in Morrowind takes some brain activity to combine transport modes, instead of just clicking on a fucking map to get instantly there.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Fast travel can't take you to unknown places, though. In a way, it's easier to move around in MW.

*Removed Language skills from Daggerfall

Wish they kept them, it would've been interesting in later TES games.

Seems like decline is with us longer than 21st century, it is with us since the dawn of time.

Calm spells make those skills redundant, like levitation did with climbing (of course, they eventually removed levitation as well )

It's not so much that I disagree with your point, but that I like they were there. You're right it's at least somewhat redudnant, if not completely. However, as an RPG lover, as I assume you're, how can you not want the inclusion of languages in an RPG?

I'll try to disagree anyway. A few things:
1. Language makes creatures calm automatically (casting spells is unneeded)
2. Thaumaturgy (calm spells) uses WIL and Languages use INT - not all builds will have both equally
3. Ample opportunities for quest designers - I think there's an Orc (Gortwog) the player can "talk" with to raise Orcish

Some things I don't like about them:
1. There're only 9!
2. The way languages raise in Daggerfall is very slow and very cumbersome. Bonuses shouldn't just come from a few rare creatures the player "talks" to or very rare skill checks when sneaking/invisibble. We should be able to get skillups from books too.
3. I've read your weapon has to be sheathed/unequipped or they become hostile

So hey you make a good point, but the RPG enthusiast in me must retaliate. I love languages! I love skills! I love lots of them. I don't like them to be too redundant, though. Critical Strike is redundant, for example. It's just close/ranged combat fluff.

Note: In Daggerfall, the calm spells are Thaumaturgy; in Morrowind they're Illusion. What're they in Skyrim?

Also note: I'd argue similar things for the inclusion of Climbing AND levitation/flying spells. Yes, they each achieve something similar, but Climbing is NOT levitation and not as powerful either. For the sake of argument, I could argue since both combat weapons and magic spells kill opponents then we should just remove magic from the game. They're both redundant because they achieve similar ends: kil opponent. The game needs alternative routes to things, even if they're partially redundant. For roeplaying! For fun! Having different routres allows us to express ourselves differently and to see things from a different perspective.

 

[Crevice tab]

Note: In Daggerfall, the calm spells are Thaumaturgy; in Morrowind they're Illusion. What're they in Skyrim?

Gone.





Daggerfall had a bit too many language skills though. That meant you got into overspecialization and simply ignoring most of them (especially since they're hard to level). One language skill that unlocks more languages as you level up either automatically or as perks seems good to me since it's easier to balance.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

So hey you make a good point, but the RPG enthusiast in me must retaliate. I love languages! I love skills! I love lots of them. I don't like them to be too redundant, though. Critical Strike is redundant, for example. It's just close/ranged combat fluff.

Critical Strike will be used often, gives clear benefits and is one skill. The average player would rather use one skill or spell than spend skillpoints on nine skills with very specific uses. Climbing was also too limited compared to levitation. A skill that lets me climb over walls, or a spell that lets me climb anywhere?

On a related note, Security in Morrowind is rendered useless by some alteration spells, but it persists anyway.

However, as an RPG lover, as I assume you're, how can you not want the inclusion of languages in an RPG?

I like the idea, but the implementation was lacking. It's basically stealth without other benefits such as being good at robbing stuff or stabbing people in the back. Not much use outside of a gimmick "linguist" character.

Note: In Daggerfall, the calm spells are Thaumaturgy; in Morrowind they're Illusion. What're they in Skyrim?

Illusion.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Pacify_(effect)

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Note: In Daggerfall, the calm spells are Thaumaturgy; in Morrowind they're Illusion. What're they in Skyrim?

Gone.





Daggerfall had a bit too many language skills though. That meant you got into overspecialization and simply ignoring most of them (especially since they're hard to level). One language skill that unlocks more languages as you level up either automatically or as perks seems good to me since it's easier to balance.

Well when I said I wanted more than just the 9 Daggerfall had what I meant was being able to influence more creatures or beings via a language skill or a deep knowledge of them. (The languages in Daggerfall are supposed to just be for "intelligent" beings.)

I agree having too many skills can be confusing, especially if it's a deep system. And if there're lots of languages then how does a player determine which one to train? In Daggerfall, I've read Spriggan is the best since they hit hard or something. What happens if you trained one for the weakest opponent in the game and then wish you had trained it for the most powerful?

However, I want to say lots of skills allow me to make a unique character. Really that's all I want. Perhaps the way to do it's to allow easier access to retraining? This way if a player decides a different skill is better then they don't have to start over from scratch. And this makes sense too: once you learn one language, you're better at learning the others.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

So hey you make a good point, but the RPG enthusiast in me must retaliate. I love languages! I love skills! I love lots of them. I don't like them to be too redundant, though. Critical Strike is redundant, for example. It's just close/ranged combat fluff.

(...)
Critical Strike will be used often, gives clear benefits and is one skill. The average player would rather use one skill or spell than spend skillpoints on nine skills with very specific uses. Climbing was also too limited compared to levitation. A skill that lets me climb over walls, or a spell that lets me climb anywhere?

On a related note, Security in Morrowind is rendered useless by some alteration spells, but it persists anyway.

Critical Strike is unnecessary when it can be merged with One-Handed and Two-Handed. You defeat your own argument since why would you add an additional skill when keeping the number of them down is what you want.

And while i agree that levitation is more powerful than climbing, here're a few points:
1) Climbing can enable you to climb if your mana/spell-points are too low to cast levitation. This happens a lot in Daggerfall when I can't find a place to rest. This might also hapen if your environment reduces your spell casting abilities.
2. Climbing is more for non-magic users; fighters, adventurers, rogues, etc
3. Climbing is different in how it plays; try it in Daggerfall (it's hands on)
4. In Daggerfall, I can climb (despite it being misc skill), but I CAN'T cast levitate yet (need more skill/levels)

Climbing is a different way to do the same thing levitation or flying spells achieve. There's nothing wrong with having different routes. Different routes is really what makes RPGs RPGs. Without that you might as well throw in the towel; it's not an RPG anymore. Maybe it'd be an adventure game at that point wher it's A -> B -> Done - no ability to do it differntly.

Besides I think Climbing in Daggerfall is what you use at first. Levitation happens later. This isn't bad at all. It helps to keep it interesting. If all I ever did was the same thing from beginning to end I'd be bored.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Sure, you can merge skills into other skills and nothing is really lost if your character can still do as many things as before. They could have merged Climbing and Jump into "Acrobatics", for example.

You're right in that climbing can be useful for characters who can't use magic, I just don't like the idea of skills that are clearly inferior to others. One might accuse me of being a balancefag but useless/very situational skills might as well not be there for me. I find it more interesting to have more uses for skills than a skill to cover every situation.

 

[Carrion]

On a related note, Security in Morrowind is rendered useless by some alteration spells, but it persists anyway.

It's not just Security. You can spend a fuck ton of time becoming the master of Acrobatics, Speechcraft, Sneak and Security (four skills), but a mage who's barely got an average knowledge of Illusion and Alteration (two skills) will be able to levitate or jump anywhere, charm or frenzy anyone, turn invisible, open any lock without needing any lockpicks and in addition to that do about a billion other things like blinding people or walking on water. There are only very few instances where magic doesn't solve all of your problems. Pickpocketing, maybe? Then there's trapped chests, but those are trivial even if your Security skill sucks. And of course there's telekinesis as well, if you're at least a little bit into Mysticism.

I don't think it would take that much effort to make those skills distinct enough so that their place in the game would be justified, though. Casting spells illuminates you for a while, so a sneaky character might prefer Acrobatics (or Climbing) to levitation magic. Maybe a the target of a charm spell gets fucking pissed after the spell wears off and possibly even becomes hostile, making Speecraft a preferable option. Invisibility might be the superior way of getting past people unnoticed but a thief might still prefer the Sneak skill that allows him to remain hidden even after picking something up (that is, if the AI knew how to react to a random adventurer just appearing from out of thin air). Lockpicking could just be made more expensive mana-wise, and there could still be the visibility factor of magic use when trying to get into a locked house in the middle of some busy street, for instance. Little unique benefits like that would make those skills worth having in my opinion, if only for very specific character builds.

I guess choosing some of those non-magic skills in Morrowind as your majors was a bit LARPy, but they allowed you to define your character in more interesting ways than Skyrim's purely combat-focused approach. And of course, in Skyrim magic is much less OP and something like Climbing could actually be pretty damn useful.

 

[Zyryanoff]

Location:
Russia
It wasn't neccessary to point it out. I could recognize a russian any second by that serious-face-attitude to every fucking statement.

You are full of stereotypes my friend, no offense. And so in your coordinate system you are russian too, isn't it? My words about life and death are just a reflection of your own funny logic. Appealing to that conclusion comes that you are "Real man" because of just naming your favourite game. Damn! True stereotype of russian detected in you! Have you got roots here in Russia? I invite you for "a ride on communist drunk bears".

I'll translate it into your language: "Из всей линейки ТЕСовских игр Даггерфолл на голову опережает казуальное дерьмо, вышедшее после него". Morrowind and Skyrim are larping sims and/or modding tools, not full-time games.

Nice job. Correct grammar.

They sure are pretty and shit, but hey. Could you bother somebody else pls? I left that comment fucking month ago.

I had no time to visit rpgcodex so sorry for that. And it is stupid to talk about bothering on codex - if you have some pain in the ass about Daggerfall (game is good but have too shitty visuals which was some kind of immersion breaker for me), don't read the thread. =)
Best regards.

So why have stats or combat since Bethesda cannot into either - just market them as the explorefag/lorefag games they already are and stop pretending. But then, I guess that wouldn't rake in the cash...

Unfortunately, yes. These days money in the gaming industry are more important than the quality of the final product.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

On a related note, Security in Morrowind is rendered useless by some alteration spells, but it persists anyway.

It's not just Security. You can spend a fuck ton of time becoming the master of Acrobatics, Speechcraft, Sneak and Security (four skills), but a mage who's barely got an average knowledge of Illusion and Alteration (two skills) will be able to levitate or jump anywhere, charm or frenzy anyone, turn invisible, open any lock without needing any lockpicks and in addition to that do about a billion other things like blinding people or walking on water. There are only very few instances where magic doesn't solve all of your problems. Pickpocketing, maybe? Then there's trapped chests, but those are trivial even if your Security skill sucks. And of course there's telekinesis as well, if you're at least a little bit into Mysticism.
(...)

I've been playing Daggerfall lately and see one of my comments earlier about levitation not being castable is untrue. My Thaumaturgy is 24 but I can still readily cast Levitation. Earlier I had to learn how to situate my keys for swimming, and that precipitated making levitation very easy to use. The only downside I can think of is it uses (i think) 44 spell points. Compared to climbing it's easy and more versatile. Yet I can imagine there'd be situation where I couldn't find an easy place to rest and might want to climb. Still, the power of and ease with which I've gained access to levitation does put what I said earlier down a few notches. I was wrong.

Yes magic is very powerful in Daggerfall/Morrowind. I agree with your post magic doesn't have to be the end-all-be-all. There can even be environments where magic casting are weakened or even times when a caster is low on easy spell points. You gave plenty of other ideas for how magic casting might be turned away in favor of non-magic techniques.

The fact I CAN make a non-magic user with some success in Daggerfall (or Morrowind?) makes them RPGs to me. I like variety. Different classes are a big part of RPGs. Yet if one way is all powerful then there's no reason to have multiple classes, right? Kind of. Even if magic users were all powerful and the other classes are worthless, players might still play them for the challenge or the different experience. Not everybody wants to blow Gandalf. Some don't even want to play a rogue. A noble fighter?

In this way I disagree strongly with one of the posters who stated skills which are less powerful than others shouldn't be available. I think he/she argued since Levitation does it all wonderfully then Climbing should be removed. What he/she is missing is having different routes to do something is integral to having different classes and hence different experiences. The different routes don't have to be equally powerful. There're strong and weak points to every class. (Magic users have weaknesses.)

 

[madrigal]

In this way I disagree strongly with one of the posters who stated skills which are less powerful than others shouldn't be available. I think he/she argued since Levitation does it all wonderfully then Climbing should be removed.

How are you supposed to enter the void if you can't climb?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

In this way I disagree strongly with one of the posters who stated skills which are less powerful than others shouldn't be available. I think he/she argued since Levitation does it all wonderfully then Climbing should be removed. What he/she is missing is having different routes to do something is integral to having different classes and hence different experiences. The different routes don't have to be equally powerful. There're strong and weak points to every class. (Magic users have weaknesses.)

I'm not asking for everything to be equally good. But if one alternative is inferior in nearly every way, I don't see much point in keeping it.

 

[Slow James]

I'm not asking for everything to be equally good. But if one alternative is inferior in nearly every way, I don't see much point in keeping it.

Unless, of course, the game has stricter skill-class distinctions or limitations.

 

[Crevice tab]

However, I want to say lots of skills allow me to make a unique character. Really that's all I want. Perhaps the way to do it's to allow easier access to retraining? This way if a player decides a different skill is better then they don't have to start over from scratch. And this makes sense too: once you learn one language, you're better at learning the others.

A solution would be having more complex formulas for success that take into account multiple skills and attributes. It would be a bit harder to balance properly but if done right it would totally improve the game overall.