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Morrowind, looking back, is at best a 4/10 game.

Zarniwoop

TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
^Newfag detected
 

Roid King

Educated
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Problem is, Morrowind and Oblivion handles this poorly, with the god damn attribute multipliers. In most cases, you are forced to play inorganically in order to not waste multipliers upon leveling. I'm actually happy Skyrim got rid of this system, though getting rid of attributes altogether was hardly the right way to go. That seems to be Bethesda's MO - if something is broken, scrap it.
I think the fundamental problem with the attribute multiplier system is that it doesn't retain any memory of skill improvements after each level up. You receive the maximum x5 multiplier from 10 skill increases, and if you happened to increase skills related to one attribute more than 10 times since your last level up then those extra skill increases are forgotten and never have an effect on the attribute multiplier. More importantly, since you choose 3 attributes to increase each time you level up, the skill increases for the other attributes that you didn't select are always effectively lost as far as the attribute multipliers are concerned, regardless of how many you had. This encourages gaming the multiplier system --- although doing so makes Morrowind less fun in the long run as your character will become too overpowered. A simple way to fix the system would have been to have it remember the total number of skill increases related to each attribute but subtract the appropriate number each time you increase that attribute, so that a x5 multiplier would subtract 10, a x4 multipler would subtract 8, and so on, retaining any excess skill increases and all skill increases in non-selected attributes as a base to build on for the next level up. Of course, since Bethesda is Bethesda, they simply stripped attributes out of Skyrim entirely as part of their post-Morrowind quest to determine how far they can dumb-down their games before sales stop increasing (the answer is yet to be determined).

An alternative system that has a similar effect as my proposed fix is to have each attribute increase by 1 point per x number of increases in related skills. The existing attribute multiplier system where the maximum x5 multiplier has a threshold of 10 skill increases suggests 1 point per 2 skill increases, but since the existing system has a large amount of wasted skill increases this should probably be slowed to 1 point per 3 skill increases. I experimented with this in a playthrough last year, and it worked fairly well while eliminating the possibility of gaming the system.

Good points, worthy of consideration. There are Oblivion mods that are very close to this, not sure about Morrowind.
 

Kalon

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Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
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I think the fundamental problem with the attribute multiplier system is that it doesn't retain any memory of skill improvements after each level up. You receive the maximum x5 multiplier from 10 skill increases, and if you happened to increase skills related to one attribute more than 10 times since your last level up then those extra skill increases are forgotten and never have an effect on the attribute multiplier. More importantly, since you choose 3 attributes to increase each time you level up, the skill increases for the other attributes that you didn't select are always effectively lost as far as the attribute multipliers are concerned, regardless of how many you had. This encourages gaming the multiplier system --- although doing so makes Morrowind less fun in the long run as your character will become too overpowered. A simple way to fix the system would have been to have it remember the total number of skill increases related to each attribute but subtract the appropriate number each time you increase that attribute, so that a x5 multiplier would subtract 10, a x4 multipler would subtract 8, and so on, retaining any excess skill increases and all skill increases in non-selected attributes as a base to build on for the next level up. Of course, since Bethesda is Bethesda, they simply stripped attributes out of Skyrim entirely as part of their post-Morrowind quest to determine how far they can dumb-down their games before sales stop increasing (the answer is yet to be determined).

An alternative system that has a similar effect as my proposed fix is to have each attribute increase by 1 point per x number of increases in related skills. The existing attribute multiplier system where the maximum x5 multiplier has a threshold of 10 skill increases suggests 1 point per 2 skill increases, but since the existing system has a large amount of wasted skill increases this should probably be slowed to 1 point per 3 skill increases. I experimented with this in a playthrough last year, and it worked fairly well while eliminating the possibility of gaming the system.

I keep thinking that the best solution is to not give a damn about multipliers.
 
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Morrowind's leveling system could've only been designed by someone both retarded AND on drugs. I do not believe someone merely retarded or merely on drugs could manage such a feat, only when the two came together, could this gem be created.
 

Archibald

Arcane
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Messages
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I keep thinking that the best solution is to not give a damn about multipliers.

Pretty much. Never gave a fuck about some multipliers and didn't have any problems while playing. If you care very much about character progression then you really shouldn't be playing TES games in the first place.
 

Kalon

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Messages
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Well, I have to admit that the sense of character progression is one of the most satisfying aspects of Morrowind, though. Worrying about getting your multiplliers "right" is, however, a sure way to kill the fun of it.
 

Crevice tab

Savant
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
224
morrowind : 4/10
oblivion: 4.5/10

Retardation never goes out of style.

I was talking specifically about powergaming, which is nearly impossible to do in Morrowind if you want to roleplay in any meaningful fashion at the same time, because you have to keep a constant watch on the multipliers. If you're overpowered without powergaming is irrelevant. You become more overpowered if powergaming, so it's a real factor.

What's with all this obsession with powergaming in a single player game that's quite easy to boot?

How about simply not powergaming at all and just playing the game normally.
 

kwanzabot

Cipher
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597
morrowind : 4/10
oblivion: 4.5/10

Retardation never goes out of style.

I was talking specifically about powergaming, which is nearly impossible to do in Morrowind if you want to roleplay in any meaningful fashion at the same time, because you have to keep a constant watch on the multipliers. If you're overpowered without powergaming is irrelevant. You become more overpowered if powergaming, so it's a real factor.

What's with all this obsession with powergaming in a single player game that's quite easy to boot?

How about simply not powergaming at all and just playing the game normally.


sorry im not as big of an idiot as you ;)
 

Kalon

Scholar
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morrowind : 4/10
oblivion: 4.5/10

Retardation never goes out of style.

I was talking specifically about powergaming, which is nearly impossible to do in Morrowind if you want to roleplay in any meaningful fashion at the same time, because you have to keep a constant watch on the multipliers. If you're overpowered without powergaming is irrelevant. You become more overpowered if powergaming, so it's a real factor.

What's with all this obsession with powergaming in a single player game that's quite easy to boot?

How about simply not powergaming at all and just playing the game normally.

It can be fun, however, to try and break the game using the game's own mechanics. After that, of course, the fun part is over.
 

Bliblablubb

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It wasn't so much about powergaming, but about being a retarded idea for a game that was all about "improving by using", forcing you to use skills you didn't want to. Oblivion was even worse in that aspect. Agility affected your chance to get staggered from an enemy attack, so naturally a heavy armor tank would need that. Sorry, agility skills are not among those you use. Be a destruction mage? Sorry, your manapool stays low, because intelligence skills are those you don't use.
Nah, I don't miss those modifiers.

Still, if judged at the time it came out, it was at least a 7-8/10. And it is still far better than Lolblivion in any aspect.

On the other hand, Morrowind brought me here, lurking in fear of all those creepy people until I found the liquid courage to register years later. Maybe I should substract points for that?
 

kwanzabot

Cipher
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
597
i dont hate anyone who likes this game and i dont think less of people because they like games i dont like


but i would give morrowind a 4/10 :P, maybe even a 3.5

IMO it is the worst elder scrolls game i played

oblivion= 4.5/10
daggerfall= 6/10
arena= 5/10

those are my scores :) if you wish to know why pm me and i will tell you ;)
 

hell bovine

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I keep thinking that the best solution is to not give a damn about multipliers.
Ah, but you see, something about the Morrowind system brings up the worst in people. Combat wasn't difficult (and with potions stacking, there was nothing mass drug production couldn't solve), and yet people would waste time training skills they wouldn't actually use in game, just to ensure they got those multipliers.

It's almost as if this game was made to troll players.
 

MWaser

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Nov 22, 2015
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Where you won't find me
I keep thinking that the best solution is to not give a damn about multipliers.
Ah, but you see, something about the Morrowind system brings up the worst in people. Combat wasn't difficult (and with potions stacking, there was nothing mass drug production couldn't solve), and yet people would waste time training skills they wouldn't actually use in game, just to ensure they got those multipliers.

It's almost as if this game was made to troll players.
They just didn't know better. I presume most people playing it for the first time don't really know how easy the game is to abuse
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
They just didn't know better. I presume most people playing it for the first time don't really know how easy the game is to abuse
I don't believe this for a second. I've said this before, MW's system doesn't break on its own, it takes willful purpose to break it. Spending hours abusing alchemy in order to get your stats into the tens of thousands then complaining the game is too easy is about as stupid as it gets.
 

MWaser

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Where you won't find me
They just didn't know better. I presume most people playing it for the first time don't really know how easy the game is to abuse
I don't believe this for a second. I've said this before, MW's system doesn't break on its own, it takes willful purpose to break it. Spending hours abusing alchemy in order to get your stats into the tens of thousands then complaining the game is too easy is about as stupid as it gets.
What exactly are you replying to?

I was talking about how the people who cry about getting the right multipliers on level ups is tedious/difficult did not know better, for it is outright unnecessary to attempt doing something like this in the game to succeed.

Perhaps I didn't word myself in the best of ways, but my intention was conveying that in spite of the game being easy to abuse, the new players are not aware of it and thus waste time and effort with pointless minmaxing and skill training
 

Sceptic

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
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Divinity: Original Sin
Yeah I must've misunderstood, I thought you were saying new players don't realize the system is easy to abuse and break it accidentally. Re-reading what you wrote I actually agree with you.
 

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