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MMOs are the evident future of videogaming, everything else is a step back

Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
285
go against me? go against Mr. Spector. yes i just washed my hands becoming a referrer of thought, not a responsible of thought, oh no im despicable.
No. You are just badly misinformed, ignorant and downright retarded, and I say this with all due apologies to retards.

Spector is no God nor is he even the best thinker. He views on economics and social justice (or rather class warfare) is pretty much "down with the upper class, the oppressors of the poor!"

Yeah, I'd happily go against Spector if he brings up his stupid "oh woe is the lower classes" crap again.

since i am a communist and so has been my family for generations, everything seems so clear now.

It's... beautiful.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,297
since i am a communist and so has been my family for generations, everything seems so clear now.

It's... beautiful.
Well, that explains a heck of a lot about your drooling idiocy, doesn't it?

OK. Enough with your spamming of my alert box with your multiple postings. Into the quiet box with you.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
285
since i am a communist and so has been my family for generations, everything seems so clear now.

It's... beautiful.
Well, that explains a heck of a lot about your drooling idiocy, doesn't it?

OK. Enough with your spamming of my alert box with your multiple postings. Into the quiet box with you.

i get it all now. Sure. there. don't worry, my little lamb, i know what's best for you, i'll take care of everything.

j/k!

in case someone missed it, this is the article that spawned the OP (i read months ago)

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-designer...-stories-about-making-pcs-most-complex-games/

the consideration about MMO's is nothing but the natural extension of this thought, it's simple farsight (not the char in FOT)

oh good! "Warren Spector is a ^@^&*##, you're a r%^$%d, the world are r@%&(*ds". Hey i was wrong, the codex: still got it!
 
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HeatEXTEND

Prophet
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action arcade games

Explain to me why those are bad. The good ones don't rot your brain and waste your life like MMO's do.
Sure I'd play UO for a couple hundred years if I was immortal. But guess what.
MMO's are gaming's opiates. Now consider gaming is an opiate all on it's own. Yes, they are That bad.

because they're not complex = repetitive = they desensitize.

(arguably) the same degree (complex=good, shallow=bad) has always been the obvious way to judge novels in books. Don't get me wrong, i am all for simple plots and stories, but the basis for a good book, even one that feels "simple" is a kind of complex thinking and structured writing. i will know, not only have i a degree in literature and im studying for a degree in codicology, i'm also an author.

Why, though? Because life is complex (a wondrous, beautiful complexity of nature), so if a product of art wants to mirror life (and that is its goal), it has to make you feel life's complexity.

So, i repeat, arcade games are bad. Console games are bad. Simulating life in fictional worlds (not necessarily online! Deus ex is not online but it feels alive) is the clear way to go, the only way to go, it's an imperative, because the next step in "creating worlds" of fiction, would be to really make them live. To be gods. And that easily explains what's miraculously good about MMO's, persistant, "breathing" worlds.... certainly not "opiates". This should explain why you're mistaken about them, because of a few common places you have about them.

You guys, in the end, talk about videogames considering them a pastime, so we must accept anything as long as it's fun. Some of you don't love videogames, apparently. That's what i mean with i know history. knowing history means knowing where videogames "have to go", that's love. That person also said he knows history, but that doesn't lead him to the future. Why? If you love your son or daughter you imagine all kinds of bright futures for 'em, i think?

Let me say, finally, that i'm horrified to read that some here don't despise console action games, toys for apes, giving a bad name to interactivity, holding it back from the place it has to go. If i owned the site, i'd first want to inspect and question the minds of new users, create a healthy kind of terror around here :)

what happened, not to elitism, but to extreme elitism?

It's obvious you have no clue about "action-arcade-games" so I wont bother there, go read a book or something. Or better yet fire up a game of robotron 64.
Then you start on books and being an author, when a few lines ago you were spouting uninformed nonsense about a subject you have no grasp on. Good luck with that.
Art isn't supposed to mirror life, it's supposed to "highlight/accentuate" if you will, aspects of life, and to explore/share what would be unknown to the artist (and through the artist the world) without the freedom to do said exploration through art.
So simulating life through games is a good thing ? Life is already there, it doesn't need simulating. Art isn't the...*ahum*...art of simulating, it's the art of extricating.
Being gods? Enjoying a power fantasy does not require a whole lot of accurate simulation at all.
And I noticed how you managed to drag Deus Ex into this. Fuck off.
Videogames are a way to pass time. The ones that give you something in return for playing them are the ones worth said time. And I'm not talking about "fun" and "satisfaction", I'm talking about understanding and insight.
You are not seeing where videogames have to go, you are seeing where they are going. The kid that is videogames should grow up to be the artist it always has been,
not the CEO of More-Real-Then-Real-Corp™.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,297
It's obvious you have no clue about "action-arcade-games" so I wont bother there, go read a book or something. Or better yet fire up a game of robotron 64.
Then you start on books and being an author, when a few lines ago you were spouting uninformed nonsense about a subject you have no grasp on. Good luck with that.
Art isn't supposed to mirror life, it's supposed to "highlight/accentuate" if you will, aspects of life, and to explore/share what would be unknown to the artist (and through the artist the world) without the freedom to do said exploration through art.
So simulating life through games is a good thing ? Life is already there, it doesn't need simulating. Art isn't the...*ahum*...art of simulating, it's the art of extricating.
Being gods? Enjoying a power fantasy does not require a whole lot of accurate simulation at all.
And I noticed how you managed to drag Deus Ex into this. Fuck off.
Videogames are a way to pass time. The ones that give you something in return for playing them are the ones worth said time. And I'm not talking about "fun" and "satisfaction", I'm talking about understanding and insight.
You are not seeing where videogames have to go, you are seeing where they are going. The kid that is videogames should grow up to be the artist it always has been,
not the CEO of More-Real-Then-Real-Corp™.
At this point, I am pretty sure he is just trolling for the sake of trolling. His outlandish declarations and attempt gotcha with the Warren Spector thing is pretty much a dead giveaway.
 

polo

Magister
Joined
Jul 8, 2014
Messages
1,737
I hate when people watch too many movies and confuse themselves to being visionaries.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
285
It's obvious you have no clue about "action-arcade-games" so I wont bother there, go read a book or something. Or better yet fire up a game of robotron 64.
Then you start on books and being an author, when a few lines ago you were spouting uninformed nonsense about a subject you have no grasp on. Good luck with that.
Art isn't supposed to mirror life, it's supposed to "highlight/accentuate" if you will, aspects of life, and to explore/share what would be unknown to the artist (and through the artist the world) without the freedom to do said exploration through art.
So simulating life through games is a good thing ? Life is already there, it doesn't need simulating. Art isn't the...*ahum*...art of simulating, it's the art of extricating.
Being gods? Enjoying a power fantasy does not require a whole lot of accurate simulation at all.
And I noticed how you managed to drag Deus Ex into this. Fuck off.
Videogames are a way to pass time. The ones that give you something in return for playing them are the ones worth said time. And I'm not talking about "fun" and "satisfaction", I'm talking about understanding and insight.
You are not seeing where videogames have to go, you are seeing where they are going. The kid that is videogames should grow up to be the artist it always has been,
not the CEO of More-Real-Then-Real-Corp™.
At this point, I am pretty sure he is just trolling for the sake of trolling. His outlandish declarations and attempt gotcha with the Warren Spector thing is pretty much a dead giveaway.

and yours is a clearly goofy attempt to distract and deviate from its inevitable truth.

i'm done, just deal with it.

hehe regarding the art guy. "art is a way to accentuate/highlight aspects of life".

So, yeah, you just twisted "art mirrors life" in other words. goodie.

just read that article. i should have posted it from the beginning. Sorry.
 
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Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
285
Fine, have all the art you want in your games, they don't have to give an impression of life as a whole, no, just an impression of a little thing, like taking a dump. fine, whatever.

But immersive sims must be claimed above all.

imo.

oh no i said taking a dump, now im in trouble for something i gave away. Wow, a troll's life is a hard life.
 
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HeatEXTEND

Prophet
Patron
Joined
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Fine, have all the art you want in your games, they don't have to give an impression of life as a whole, no, just an impression of a little thing, like taking a dump. fine, whatever.

But immersive sims must be claimed above all.

imo.

oh no i said taking a dump, now im in trouble for something i gave away.
Games don't contain art, they are art ya dumbfuck.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
285
Fine, have all the art you want in your games, they don't have to give an impression of life as a whole, no, just an impression of a little thing, like taking a dump. fine, whatever.

But immersive sims must be claimed above all.

imo.

oh no i said taking a dump, now im in trouble for something i gave away.
Games don't contain art, they are art ya dumbfuck.

you cannot be serious. you're trolling me for "IN" ??
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
285
for god sake, i did nothing but repeat what i read in that article, which concepts were, naturally, already on me.

why do you keep deviating from it? what're you afraid of? can't you argument against it instead of finding excuses using personal insults?

and no, "it's evidently fucking wrong. you're fucking wrong fuck you" doesn't qualify as argument.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
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Kelethin
I think MMOs are the future of gaming, no doubt about it, but I think the entire MMO genre has gone through a serious decline to the point now where it is kind of worthless. It is also completely different to how it was when it started, how it actually is, but also how it used to think of itself. I think a mediocre or bad MMO, which is 99.9% of them, is a lot worse than an average single player game. I would much rather spend some time in DoS 2, Aarklash, etc. than I would in some shit like Black Desert, Aion, WoW, Rift, etc.

But the scope from an online game is just far bigger. Currently that scope is only being realised about 1% and it is really frustrating. Back in the 90s people knew that the future of gaming had appeared, and it eventually would have thousands or even millions of people all playing together, all role playing in unique ways, some being evil, some being good, etc. building empires or trying to make empires fall, etc. But none of that has become a reality yet. Technically some of the bigger games have a large audience of millions or tens of millions, but they are all split onto dozens of different servers, so you only ever interact with a few thousand at the most. And there is no decent world building or empire building, the only exception is EVE, yet that is weak in many other ways. The future games will be amazing, but there is a very VERY long road ahead to get there, and as it is today, it looks like most companies are not even on that road anymore.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
285
If i may, and not at once being called turnface or something, the MMO talk was the beginning to mention immersive sims, like Thief, Prey, Deus Ex. It's in general to underscore the importance in gaming of giving more freedom to players.

MMO's potential is limitless. As a simulation of the whole works of FRank Herbert's Dune, or Star Trek, with actors acting episodes inside a virtual world, like the Wachowski guys attempted with Matrix Online. Way too ahead of its time.

That's it. did i use any words wrong, o powerful masters?

Besides that, two of the greatest visionaries in the 90's, Roberts and Garriott, are making two MMO's, Shroud of the Avatar and Star Citizen.

If two of the greatest minds of videogaming, are bent on virtual worlds, for god sake, there must be a reason.

To top EVERYTHING else, Warren Spector, responsible for so many masterpieces, believes in the importance of immersive sims.

wow, saying controversial things is like walking on hot coals.
 
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Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Some reasons why I don't play MMOs much. (They are fine with friends every now and then.)

1. Every MMO I have played involves tedious grinding.
2. Every MMO I have tried has endless fetch quests.
3. Every MMO I have have played have non-existent encounter design, outside of boss battles.
4. Most MMOs have boring combat systems.
5. I'm not a fan of cooldown mechanics.
6. I'm not a fan of playing with AlCohol or ITeaBaggedYourMother.
7. A lot of MMOs use micro transactions to unlock stuff.
8. Most MMOs have boring stories.
9. The amount of time needed to invest to get anywhere.
10. Most MMOs are carbon copies in different skin.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
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I'm not even saying you're wrong, just saying that Garriott's judgement isn't as worth now as it was way back then.

Shroud of the Avatar is a disaster, by the way. If THAT'S the "arrow that points torwards the future of the industry" we're talking about, then even League of Legends is incline.

Oh i didn't know that. What happened?

Garriott will always be a visionary, though, even if his vision is bad. Same as the other guy.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
285
i'm talking about simulating a universe like Star Citizen, unscrewing every last nail and wire of your ship.

The only thing that Star Citizen simulates is the empty wallet of every dumbfuck that was stupid enough to give money to Roberts.

well, you may be right ofc (i fear it too), but you just insulted possibly more than 3/4 of the gaming population.

but if you're wrong, and Star Citizen miraculously offers an amazing level of interactivity, detailed professions, an interface that lets you manipulate the environment like Deus Ex... it's going to be like an earthquake. let me just dream it.
 
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Bohrain

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
i'm talking about simulating a universe like Star Citizen, unscrewing every last nail and wire of your ship.

The only thing that Star Citizen simulates is the empty wallet of every dumbfuck that was stupid enough to give money to Roberts.

well, you may be right ofc (i fear it too), but you just insulted possibly more than 3/4 of the gaming population.

but if you're wrong, and Star Citizen miraculously offers an amazing level of interactivity, detailed professions, an interface that lets you manipulate the environment like Deus Ex... it's going to be like an earthquake. let me just dream it.

In software development (including video games) it is vital to recognize what the few core features are in order to ship a finished product. If this isn't done you'll end up in with a bloated program that has lots of poorly implemented features, which ultimately leads to either the project getting cancelled, or getting gutted to a form that satisfies nobody and being forcibly shipped.
Star Citizen in particular has been in development for six years and is still in alpha stage. Chris Roberts seems like one of those people who is both incapable of prioritizing and wants to include every feature in the world and those kind of people are good at getting absolutely nothing done. I haven't followed the Scam Citizen circus that avidly, but I think he has already promised expensive celebrity voice actors, ship combat, facial recognition, FPS combat, simulated cities and billion other things.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
A game that simulates opposable thumbs is a game for the physically and possibly mentally disabled.
That's not complexity. It's bloat. It doesn't, in any way, make for a good game.

And there's nothing "superior" in copying what you see. Since you like your philosophical bullshit then surely inventing a new form of interaction is superior to durr simulating opposubale thambs!!
Also, it might be complex to DEVELOP a good simulation, but that hardly translates into complexity in playing it. And it certainly does not translate into playability. If you need to interact with objects in a game as if you had thumbs you're probably severely autistic.

No, you're not saying dogs should be extinct, you're saying they should all strive to be simulations, because you have seen the face of the universe and written on it stood "ALL GAMES SHOULD ASPIRE TO BE SIMULATIONS OF THE HUMAN LIFE!".

ok now i know you don't get me. Opposubal thomb is just a symbolism for... aw what's the point.

for the rest, tho, yes, you got it. but i restate that i don't want all games to be simulations or MMO'S... just more than zero, which is what we have. And before someone points out a possible contradiction in an earlier post, well, c'mon, that's just the fervor of an opening post, ok? and the thread, with the (scarce) points made makes you develop your thought.

But the word simulation is too misleading. I don't want all games to simulate farms.

So let me reformulate once and for all

ALL GAMES SHOULD ASPIRE TO BE LIKE WARREN SPECTOR WANTS. in this topic here, btw

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-designer...-stories-about-making-pcs-most-complex-games/

go against me? go against Mr. Spector. yes i just washed my hands becoming a referrer of thought, not a responsible of thought, oh no im despicable.

boy i haven't had this fun in forums in years :D

Now, you equate simulation with complexity. I get that very well and it's dumb.
Complicated =/= complex

And, no, all games should NOT aspire to having anything in common except good gameplay (in their category).

Again, since you can't grasp it:
- complex does not automatically mean good gameplay
- complexity is not automatically superior to simplicity
- simulations are not complex by default
 

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