Metal Gear DISCUSS!!!111!

[Phage]

Did somebody say metal gear?

 

[Ninjerk]

Did somebody say metal gear?

 

[Jick Magger]

I'd describe your average Metal Gear Solid plot as a bad story that's been told well. When you examine alot of the details for each of the games, especially 3, alot of the details don't make an awful lot of sense and alot of developments only work out if the characters happen to be really fucking stupid, but you don't really care at the time because you're being attacked by a motherfucker who shoots bees out of his mouth like goddamn bullets.

 

[Ninjerk]

I'd describe your average Metal Gear Solid plot as a bad story that's been told well. When you examine alot of the details for each of the games, especially 3, alot of the details don't make an awful lot of sense and alot of developments only work out if the characters happen to be really fucking stupid, but you don't really care at the time because you're being attacked by a motherfucker who shoots bees out of his mouth like goddamn bullets.

Like how in the first game Snake tells Meryl that if she hesitates, "...you're worm food," but the entire series is built upon Big Boss not shooting his mentor in the face on the bridge in MGS3.

 

[Phage]

While most people like 3 the most in the MGS series, I still standby 2 being the best. 3 was in a somewhat awkward transition between 'pac-man' and open-world stealth, where as 2 was pretty much the pinnacle of pac-stealth. For every neat moment with emergent gameplay you get in 3, there's multiple spent navigating through slow menus to equip the optimal camo and cure your wounds. 2 also had a much more interesting story full of insane twists and a final hour that's basically Japan's equivalent of Planescape. 3 does manage to provide a much greater emotional punch towards its end though.

 

[tuluse]

While most people like 3 the most in the MGS series, I still standby 2 being the best. 3 was in a somewhat awkward transition between 'pac-man' and open-world stealth, where as 2 was pretty much the pinnacle of pac-stealth. For every neat moment with emergent gameplay you get in 3, there's multiple spent navigating through slow menus to equip the optimal camo and cure your wounds. 2 also had a much more interesting story full of insane twists and a final hour that's basically Japan's equivalent of Planescape. 3 does manage to provide a much greater emotional punch towards its end though.

All the stories are bad, 3 is the most fun.

And yes, I know all about the VR theory shit. It's still just repeating things scifi authors were writing in the 1980s.

 

[Phage]

All the stories are bad, 3 is the most fun.

And yes, I know all about the VR theory shit. It's still just repeating things scifi authors were writing in the 1980s.

VR theory is irrelevant to what MGS2 is actually about. I don't even know why people act like VR theory is some super secret thing - it's a pretty obvious theory to think up before you even finish the game.

 

[tuluse]

VR theory is irrelevant to what MGS2 is actually about. I don't even know why people act like VR theory is some super secret thing - it's a pretty obvious theory to think up before you even finish the game.

Every idea in the game is regurgitated from a better writer.

 

[Phage]

Every idea in the game is regurgitated from a better writer.

I guess? I mean if you want to play this toddler-tier game, we can look at almost any piece of media and trace the majority of its thoughts and ideas to 'better writers'. Nothing else in vidya, nor any other medium offers the combination of all the ideas present in MGS2. Also no 'better writers' tackled the subject of player agency over character avatars to this degree that I'm aware of.

 

[tuluse]

I guess? I mean if you want to play this toddler-tier game, we can look at almost any piece of media and trace the majority of its thoughts and ideas to 'better writers'.

If you look at video games yes.

Nothing else in vidya, nor any other medium offers the combination of all the ideas present in MGS2.

Maybe not exactly, but plenty of works covering everything interesting

Also no 'better writers' tackled the subject of player agency over character avatars to this degree that I'm aware of.

Which is basically the least interesting topic you could ever cover in a video game.

*take away player control*

"turns out you never had any control to begin with, aren't I clever mr player?"

Now if you actually gave the player agency, and then exploited that in some way to make a point, that might be interesting. Kojima almost does this with MGS3 and the dead people you killed along the river.

 

[Phage]

If you look at video games yes.

Nah, if you look at every medium - ever. All human achievement is iterative, just a fact of life bruh.

Maybe not exactly, but plenty of works covering everything interesting

Firstly, starting to really get the impression that you missed a few important things, or didn't play the game itself. Regardless - I am actually quite interested in what "plenty of works covered everything interesting" I would like to actually partake in them if they're worthwhile.

Which is basically the least interesting topic you could ever cover in a video game.

*take away player control*

"turns out you never had any control to begin with, aren't I clever mr player?"

Now if you actually gave the player agency, and then exploited that in some way to make a point, that might be interesting. Kojima almost does this with MGS3 and the dead people you killed along the river.

And here lies the heart of the problem - that's not what happened in the game at all. I was referencing Raiden's arc as a character - how he starts off as a literal "jack" into the game's world, and how he wears dogtags with the player's name before discarding them at the end of the game - see also how he transforms from nerd slipping on bird poop who played a bunch of VR missions (very obviously representing the player) to his own character complete with mega edgy tragic backstory.

Anyways, I think it's pretty obvious we took very, very different things away from the game. And yes - the 'battle' with the Sorrow is pretty nifty.

 

[SuicideBunny]

Like how in the first game Snake tells Meryl that if she hesitates, "...you're worm food," but the entire series is built upon Big Boss not shooting his mentor in the face on the bridge in MGS3.

there is no meryl in the first game. metal gear solid is the third game, ffs.

 

[Grimwulf]

I'll just leave it here

Spoiler

 

[Ninjerk]

there is no meryl in the first game. metal gear solid is the third game, ffs.

I'd describe your average Metal Gear Solid plot as a bad story that's been told well. When you examine alot of the details for each of the games, especially 3, alot of the details don't make an awful lot of sense and alot of developments only work out if the characters happen to be really fucking stupid, but you don't really care at the time because you're being attacked by a motherfucker who shoots bees out of his mouth like goddamn bullets.

 

[Phage]

idk how this became it's own thread, but it's definitely the greatest thread to ever grace the codex.

 

[tuluse]

Nah, if you look at every medium - ever. All human achievement is iterative, just a fact of life bruh.

True, but other better writers have managed to be more novel.

Firstly, starting to really get the impression that you missed a few important things, or didn't play the game itself. Regardless - I am actually quite interested in what "plenty of works covered everything interesting" I would like to actually partake in them if they're worthwhile.

I've played the game through twice.

Filtering information and changing it to "create context", read some William Gibson. I read through his sprawl trilogy and he touches on everything MGS2 has to say about it, but does so more subtly. No one comes out and explains everything in the end. He also predicts 4chan and the internet as a fast moving meme factory (somewhat irrelevant, but cool).

I also preferred Human Revolution's AI reporter as a twist on the concept. Since it has/gains sentience and doesn't want to go along with the plan. It also shows how it would happen in real life instead of a character saying "this is what we're doing". Classic show don't tell writing there. Note: I don't think HR's writing is anything special. I would rate it average, just one thing I liked.

And here lies the heart of the problem - that's not what happened in the game at all. I was referencing Raiden's arc as a character - how he starts off as a literal "jack" into the game's world, and how he wears dogtags with the player's name before discarding them at the end of the game - see also how he transforms from nerd slipping on bird poop who played a bunch of VR missions (very obviously representing the player) to his own character complete with mega edgy tragic backstory.

Again I don't find this interesting. Why does Raider represent the player the at the beginning, but not the end? What does this say about anything? You only have one choice in MGS2, keep playing or stop. There is *no* agency at all. So there is no reason for Raiden to ever represent the player because the player is never actively participating in events.

I might argue that even MGS1 did the same thing better. When you want to shoot the fuck out of Rex but Snake refuses to because Grey Fox is there because at least Kojima didn't feel the need to explain it before, during and after.

Even structurally the story has problems. If you want a arc of Raider transforming from the player into himself, it should happen slowly over the course of the game. Instead it's the usual act 3 Kojima exposition dump. It's no so much an arc as it is a character cliff.

After writing all this, my biggest problem with the game's story is not it's content, but the over explaining. Video game players are dumb though, so I guess you have to really beat it into their heads.

 

[tuluse]

idk how this became it's own thread, but it's definitely the greatest thread to ever grace the codex.

I used the report feature to ask for a thread split since we were wildly off topic.

 

[SuicideBunny]

still stupid. use the normal names, otherwise it's bound to just be confusing thanks to the portable games, remakes, and non-mgs mg games.

 

[warpig]

I liked the boss battles in MGS, the story has some charm, would be a lot cooler if they toned down the preaching. Metal Gear Raiden: Faggot Rising is p.cool too.

 

[Phage]

I disagree with you, but your beliefs have valid reasons behind them - therefore I'm not going to argue much. I will check out William Gibson - the prediction of memes was indeed a big thing I really enjoyed in MGS2.

I think that the reason why it resonates so much with me is that I liked the smoregus board of ideas present, and I did enjoy the game itself quite thoroughly. The fact that it all wrapped up with the very uplifting "life isn't just about passing on your genes" bit and the concept of existence being whatever you want it to be was enough icing on the cake for me to overlook its flaws. I do agree that things are overexplained, and the pretty bad voice acting doesn't help on that front. I also suspect that on a technical level the writing isn't so great thanks to being a translation.

Video game players are dumb though, so I guess you have to really beat it into their heads.

And yet the majority of people complaining about 2 were upset that you play as Raiden, and still didn't understand the end

 

[tuluse]

The funny thing is I don't even dislike MGS2, and I would put it's story as above average for a video game (other than the over explaining). I just got triggered or something.

Good discussion Phage

 

[Ninjerk]

tuluse Is there something you find particularly novel about the Human Revolution AI plot vs. original Deus Ex (or e.g. GitS, etc.).

 

[Echo Mirage]

I'll just leave it here

Spoiler

WoW. That's the most over analyzed trash I have ever seen in video form.

The author has such a massive hard on for Gray Fox that he is willing to spin everything to that end.

Big Boss not called Big boss any more? Gray fox!
Base announcer uses the same voice over as in ground zeroes? Gray Fox!
Big Boss is pissy about losing everything he worked hard to build in Peacewalker and wants to kill some dudes? Gray Fox!
MSF loses all of it choppers when it's base is destroyed forcing Kaz to outsource for new ones? It's all a sim and you are playing Gray fox!
Kojima retconning faster than he can make canon? Gray Fox!

 

[Tehdagah]

But memes always existed.

(...) Even structurally the story has problems. If you want a arc of Raider transforming from the player into himself, it should happen slowly over the course of the game. Instead it's the usual act 3 Kojima exposition dump. It's no so much an arc as it is a character cliff.

After writing all this, my biggest problem with the game's story is not it's content, but the over explaining. Video game players are dumb though, so I guess you have to really beat it into their heads.

The massive amount of exposition used by Kojima is tiresome.

I still managed to survive MGS4's cut-scenes :mrfussy:

 

[Ninjerk]

But memes always existed.




The massive amount of exposition used by Kojima is tiresome.

I still managed to survive MGS4's cut-scenes, lol.

I didn't