Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries by Piranha Games

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by LESS T_T, Dec 4, 2016.

  1. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    I mentioned side jump jets earlier, and how one neat thing they planned for MekPak 4 was putting them back in. Still, jump jets have always been far too slow and overall mobility has remained too low. Again, average level of skill involved remains too low, as Miyazaki (AKA the Souls games guy) was mentioned before by Morgoth the thing is that you need to have a skill curve going like this: https://youtu.be/M66PMn8BdME at scrub -> https://youtu.be/g6IpcH_HqzY after git gud.

    It does not need to be literally 1000+ mph combat, but it needs to be faster and more intense, with a greater degree of skill factored in. This has always been the core weakness of every MechWarrior game, they are baby-slow shooters where you can't take off the training wheels, with very simple level of simulation and mechanics. I wouldn't like them nearly as much as I do if I didn't have such a soft spot for BattleTech itself and many of the games themselves.

    (Speaking of DFA, that's another thing where MW4 made things very funky and odd since it too has a very very picky targeting zone)
     
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  2. Caelgender: ⚧ Scholar

    Cael
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    Does collision even do damage in MW4? I can't recall it ever happening.

    In MW2M, play the mission where you are in the Pegasus and tell me if it is sluggish :D

    BTW, by far the most sluggish vehicle game I ever played was Starfleet Command 3.That was sluggish :P
     
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    Vaarna_Aarne
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    It does, just basically a tiny little bump with this almost funny sound of someone slapping sheet metal. Or if DFA is succesful there's absolutely no fucking way of telling how fucked up the damage levels are going to be for either party, since it seemed that DFA hit is determined INDEPEDENTLY for both sides so there is the slight chance that you just get DFA leg damage and knockdown chance but the target gets collision damage and vice versa. It still retains the same humorous little sheet metal slap sound tho.

    Remind me, was Starfleet Command that one where you... Oh wait no I'm thinking of Starfleet Academy Bridge Command or something like that I think, but yea a game where you command a starship from the captain's chair and it's prepostrously complicated business.
     
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  4. Caelgender: ⚧ Scholar

    Cael
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    No. SFC3 is... well, pics don't do it justice. Let's just say that it is like WW2 battleships fighting each other at 60,000 yards in real time.
     
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  5. Cosmic Banegender: ⚧ Educated

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    Nah, you and morgoth are just wrong about that, especially when it comes to jump jet combat. Skill matters an awful lot in these games. They are also often going 100 mph+ just with running, and much faster with jump jets so your criticism doesn't even make any sense and just screams out that you have not really played much.

    You can play some online and you will see how much skill matters when you go against a human. A whole lot.

    Armored core is just a whole different kind of game and not really comparable to MW except they both have some kind of robots. It's like being mad at jagged alliance because it's not metroid, it doesn't even really compute.
     
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  6. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    So it's almost like the inverse of Derek Smart fighter piloting, hit a 10-20 meter object moving at near-relativistic velocities while you do the same.
     
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  7. Caelgender: ⚧ Scholar

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    Everything is autoaimed. You just press a button and pray the RNG likes you.
     
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    Country_Gravy
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    So is MW5 for real? I don't see anything on PB website. Is i just supposed to be single player MWO?
     
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  9. Make America Great Again Blackgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Singleplayer mwo with less customization than mwo.
     
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    Yea exactly the inverse of Derek Smart space fighters, where you have to manually aim the non-hitscan projectile to lead on the other fighter also moving at near-relativistic velocity.

    Hence why I call bullshit if anyone claims they actually hit anyone in a dogfight in a Derek Smart game. Any video evidence would be 100% hoaxed, even live demonstration would call for extreme measures to make sure this isn't some con artist psychic deal.
     
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  11. Cosmic Banegender: ⚧ Educated

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    It's only your difference in speed that matters. Again, you obviously did not play much of that game, if any.

    Calling MW a slow shooter is especially ridiculous. Is m1 abrams tank platoon a slow shooter?

    MW is not a shooter it's a combination of squad tactics and tank warfare like if you mixed JA 2 with M1 Tank Platoon. Positioning, ambushes, mobility and careful aim are what MW is about. Armored Core is about running around and plastering a million gay enemies as fast as possible.
     
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  12. Caelgender: ⚧ Scholar

    Cael
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    I don't know about that... I was pretty good with the Druuge Mauler back in the day. Used to nail human or AI players from across the screen while travelling at a pretty hefty clip from a planetary slingshot.
     
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  13. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Derek Smart's games have never been rated as highly as Star Control 2 or Ur-Quan Masters. But hey, the man tried his damn hardest, and is an inspiration to everyone who has ever shitposted!

    See, now you're mistaking reality with game design to very detrimental effects. See, the BattleMechs simply are NOT a tank platoon because they have hit points. Real tanks do not. Real tanks do not have an armor plating that is withered away with repeated fire that can be measured with a decreasing numerical value, BattleTech or MechWarrior has never handled penetration as a major factor in any fashion as real tanks don't care just for critical hits (or rather, any proper hit IS a critical hit for them), very few mech simulators ever have used penetration as a thing. The way armor is handled is a distinct SHOOTER identifier in MW games, as it is in many 'mech simulators, hence their position in a larger more abstract genre as shooters. Furthermore, one would have to note that an M1 tank or any tank for the matter is not a vertical construct like 'Mechs are, which is a pretty important difference.

    Moreover, MW has always been built to not make ambushes outside of prescripted AI awareness possible because of highly accurate NLOS radar with NLOS detection variation between 400-1000m depending on specifics of the game, ECM Y/N and sensor mode. The only possibility of ambush lies in shutdown, and even then it literally matters squat because the only way it can work is by poptarting after a spotter (whose existence will sort of tip the other guys off with "oh it's that thing"). The AI naturally doesn't give any fucks about this sort of thing unless it's been specifically made to give a shit about that kind of thing for that particular mission, but I'm talking about the mechanics and not mission design anyway. This anyway is why MekPak 4's plans to gut NLOS radar were such great promise. This is generally compounded by the fact that before MWO every MechWarrior game was made in an era when 3D graphics couldn't really do camouflage particularly well, and the fact these are games involving large vertical combatants. Returning to previous analogy presented, M1 tanks do not have built-in NLOS radar systems among their equipment either, though oddly enough BattleMechs and other sorts of mechs in simulators extremely rarely possess thermal imaging or infrared which is kind of a strange and amusing reversal of the state of affairs.

    See, the thing is that a tank is rather well equipped to destroy an equivalent tank. A single solid hit will very likely inflict one of the three categories of kills, weapon, mobility, or total. Furthermore, they do not fight only themselves, there are numerous man-portable specialised weapons that can also with correct application do the same. These are also something that MW games completely ignore, damaging the analogy further, despite canonical purposes of UrbanMech because if memory serves the poor bastard on foot would have the equivalent of a small laser. Simply put, MW does not present a combined arms approach, it's just 'mech on 'mech combat with occasional tank or vehicle who are there generally for relaxation and merriment.


    But returning to actual matter, the issue is that a BattleMech in MW games overall rarely has more than 120kph top speed and usually their ability to turn and maneuver is faced with hard limitations (such as jump jet recovery periods), which leaves their evasive ability at a disadvantage compared to the ultimate level of skill in MechWarrior: Decoupling mouse aim from leg movement. Or rather, the key thing is that the process of aiming and hitting is overall a one-sided affair, only means of evasion are by and large best described as pre-emptive, active participation and skillplay between two combatants is limited. These are *always* slow targets, with majority of weapons being more than fast enough or absolutely instantenous (this is probably the thing MW2 does the best out of all of them, since it does NOT have hitscan lasers). The only real disruption comes from being rocked by impact. The skill caps at being able to consistently aim at your chosen target bodypart, which again is not hard (unless we're talking the tiny tiny head hitboxes in MW4) because the target is large and slow and mostly limited to horizontal plane of movement. Similar to this, squad play at advanced level is concentration of fire.

    EDIT: I suppose that in short I should say that the tank analogy doesn't work in itself, but I also disagree with it on the basis because it has no inherent value from perspective of designing a good game. Realism is not a part of the process of creating good gameplay, and that's really the point of my critique of MechWarrior as a franchise that I feel it is timid about evolving and improving itself.

    This is why it compares negatively to Armored Core, where the sign of a skilled player is that they do not merely know how to aim (a necessity because ammunition limitations are very harsh) but most of all will actively negate vast majority of attacks leveled at them via their own mastery of the controls of their mech but their reaction speed and tactical acumen as well, which also respectively means their aiming skills must be more advanced as well (and the deeper simulation aspects kick in here as well since Armored Core's mech and weapon statistics include things like recoil, muzzle velocity and projectile decay, limb aiming potential, lock-on performance and compatibility, and these are just the stats related to the mech's response to player aiming). The part where MW games have been left behind in evolution can be probably best summed up by the fact that two MechWarriors cannot dance like this: https://youtu.be/mtPY3A3hQ28

    (Note that V generation of Armored Core used vertical restrictions on movement as an additional layer of skill, as you can only ascend higher with terrain assisted jumps; you will also notice there is no traditional radar)

    PS: Derek Smart games' space fighter impossibly high speeds have absolutely nothing at all to do with how fast mechs move.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
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  14. Cosmic Banegender: ⚧ Educated

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    :prosper:

    Yes, reality is not the same as game.

    They do in tank simulators though.

    Totally untrue.

    Penetration is a made up game concept for wargames, it is not real either. I mean real war games not computer games.

    MW is nothing like a shooter. It is a simulation. That is how tank simulators the government uses work too.

    You don't have to penetrate to kill a tank, what did you smoke before posting?

    The main difference between a simulation and a shooter is just detail. MW is very detailed, and it actually uses the detail. In armored core you just whiz around and shoot things. All the detail is frivolous addon that could be removed without changing the mechanics.

    That's why they don't call it a tank, it is a FUTURE tank, and also often has jumpjets.


    Yeah terrain has never mattered in MW. Holy crap I can't facepalm enough. Just reality check your words. We have better tech than that today and still have ambushes :lol:

    No.

    Wrong. Every imaginable detection equipment is available on the modern battlefield but they would never put it in a fucking tank because it would broadcast its position.

    Not true.

    Like every tank game made? Beside syou can do that, the games we have just don't and it would be too cumbersome to deal with ina game.


    You are trying to play it like a shooter, but it's not one. Hint: you have 3 other guys then it's probably not a shooter.

    You mean your shooter 'skills' of bunnyhopping around. Like I said go play online and see how long you last playing it like a shooter.

    Not if you are making a shooter it doesn't. It's not a shooter, and the whole point is detail.

    It doesn't compare to armored core at all because armored core is shitty generic shooter 778327837822378.

    So you like shooters and never really played mechwarrior except maybe a couple hours like some kotaku shill.

    No, but it shows you didn't play that game before judging either.
     
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  15. Cosmic Banegender: ⚧ Educated

    Cosmic Bane
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    MW 5: not a very good shooter. That would actually be pretty good marketing :lol:
     
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  16. Caelgender: ⚧ Scholar

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    Let me give you an example of the slug. Note that the guy is playing a Defiant, the fastest and most maneuverable ship in the Federation fleet, and one that has the highest possible levels in all officers (which increases ship performance). Combat starts around 2:10 mark.

     
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    One could jokingly argue that they are much faster than in the show because they don't spend a long time just staying still in front of each other while a riveting conversation between captains takes place.
     
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  18. Caelgender: ⚧ Scholar

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    Don't make me post one of those riveting moments here. "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel."
     
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    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Temba, his arms wide.

    EDIT: We need to figure out what to call it when you feel intense anxiety from not having jump jets. It's like claustrophobia but it happens with the ground staying under your feet. I have that, I cannot stand making 'mechs without Jump Jets if the option is present, no matter how anemic the jets might be. It makes me feel trapped not having them, and the feeling grows in proportion with increasing tonnage. 100 tons and no jump jets is cold sweat terror.
     
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  20. Caelgender: ⚧ Scholar

    Cael
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    Try terraphobia (no, it is not a real term).
     
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  21. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    No no, that's not quite the thing, ground isn't the problem. It's like agoraphobia, but the fear not being able to reach everywhere.

    (I also have a problem of obsessively trying to jump up to the top of biggest buildings in urban maps whenever possible)
     
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  22. Caelgender: ⚧ Scholar

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    ... That is called a "flying pincushion"...
     
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  23. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Well it's something one can indulge more in single player, not so much when actually fighting. But it's something I MUST indulge!
     
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  24. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ I post news Patron

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    http://www.pcgamer.com/despite-weak...ing-up-to-be-the-mech-game-ive-always-wanted/

    http://www.pcgamer.com/mechwarrior-5-mercenaries-is-coming-december-2018-will-have-4-player-co-op/

     
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  25. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Co-op sounds very nice, I always like me some good co-op in mech games and in this sense MechWarrior is the only one that has sort of delivered (largely in form of the coop mods made for MW4s, particularly the one for Mercs). Mod support is also welcome, if done right it can greatly expand the lifespan of the game.
     
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