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Master of Orion 1+2

almondblight

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Reading the MOO2 manual makes me wanna play MOO1...MOO2 sounds like it's much more micromanagement, smaller fleets and less fun. I hope I'm wrong.

You're not.
 

TigerKnee

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Reading the MOO2 manual makes me wanna play MOO1...MOO2 sounds like it's much more micromanagement, smaller fleets and less fun. I hope I'm wrong.
MOO2 is very "Civilization: Space Edition" as far as the empire building goes - I never read the manual but can play it fine anyway because the "move workers around for food/hammers/grain" mechanics + corruption + happiness and all that is essentially the same in all Civ-type games.

MOO2's greatest strength for me is probably making custom races because I like doing that sort of thing - MOO1's probably more unique overall and the random tech tree is probably the one thing they shouldn't have taken out for 2 since it keeps games from being very predictable (some techs are obviously better than others and without randomization, it tends to be an obvious rush for those categories)
 

Destroid

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TigerKnee there are rebalance mods to fix the tech tree imbalances, though I haven't tried them.

Are the MoOs harder on small maps? I always play that way and find both games hard on the higher difficulties.
 

octavius

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The Sakkra Death Fleet:


bs2sFMy.jpg


How do you defeat those 32,000 Spirits? I thought they were small ships, so this was a nasty surprise indeed when it turns out they both have 36 (making Pulsars rather ineffective), as well as having long rance weapons, making the Repulsor Beam useless against them. And in addition they even have anti-missile measures.
I don't have access to Black Hole Generator, so I thought of using a battle ship with High Energy Focus (shoot from out of their range), Warp Dissipator (to slow them down) and Ion Stream (to reduces their HP by 20% each round), but it's hard to pull off since the Dissipator seems to target the nearest enemy ship instead the ones I'm shooting at. I guess the range bonus does not apply to it.

So I designed this to try and counter them:
eCi0o1i.jpg


Not sure how many I will need for them to be effective, though, or how much that 15 DEF will help.

But it's probably a moot point anyway, since I'm just genociding the Sakkras now, since they don't have adequate defenses against my bombers.
 

octavius

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I was able to defeat those 32,000 ships by Ion Streaming them to death.
Lost half my fleet, but being in in the lead in Production and Population the game is won.
Ion Stream Projector was a decisive factor in this game, since I also used it to wear down Bases.
But this game reminds me why I swore I should not play Huge maps again; despite the initial map not looking that large, it takes too much time to conquer it all.
 
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TigerKnee

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But this game reminds me why I swore I should not play Huge maps again; despite the initial map not looking that large, it takes too much time to conquer it all.

Are the MoOs harder on small maps? I always play that way and find both games hard on the higher difficulties.
I thought I answered this particular question but it turns out I forgot to do it. Oh well, might as well tie two "size" posts together.

I would say small maps are harder because it tends to be more "swingy" with things like planet generation and how much you can snatch before you are forced into conflict - you get a bad start like having no planets in range at start and you might as well just respawn the map. In bigger maps the "luck" tends to even itself out.

But like octavius said, I sadly have to take that swinginess over playing big maps because it gets god awful boring trying to stomp cockroaches.

New Mod Idea: "MOO optimized for small maps" mod?
 

octavius

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I would say small maps are harder because it tends to be more "swingy" with things like planet generation and how much you can snatch before you are forced into conflict - you get a bad start like having no planets in range at start and you might as well just respawn the map. In bigger maps the "luck" tends to even itself out.

But like octavius said, I sadly have to take that swinginess over playing big maps because it gets god awful boring trying to stomp cockroaches.

Heh, I just started a new games as Meklars, Large map, Impossible, and I just can't catch a break.
The Bulrathi, Mrrshans and Psilon are running circles around me colonizing planets before I get a chance to do it (parking scouts didn't help), and of the planets I did manage to grab, one was Poor.
And now the Mrrshans are sending troops to one of my planets. There seems to be a bug whereby if a race has ship around a planet, it will keep sending troop transports, as if it thinks it owns the planet and sends reinforcements, since the number is not enough to conquer.
It's a rather bizarre situation when other races act more aggressive when not at war...

Anyway, I think I'll restart with one less computer opponent to make it less crowded.
 

octavius

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Don't you hate it when there are no good bombs in the game?
I'm currently playing a Large map as Darloks on Impossible with 5 players, and after a long period of only having four planets, one of them Poor, I was able to steal enough tech to start expanding. That the Poor planet turned into a Rich planet helped me building some huge ships with which to start the conquest of the galaxy.
But I never got anything better than Fusion Bombs and neither does any of the other players. So it has become a bit of a stalemate, and I had to research Proton Torpedoes to finally have enough fire power to breach the defenses of my main rival, the Meklars.
Having finally gained air superiority over one of the planets I sent 530 transports, which I though might be enough (huge tech difference in ground weapons and armour) to defeat their 178 defenders, only to learn that there is a cap of 300 troops that can invade a planet. :argh:
So I sent in some battleships with bio weapons; but it was overkill, so no new techs. How do you calculate the effects of the bio weapons anyway? Is it a straight 3 killed per Bio Terminator, minus 1 or 2 if they have antidotes? So 100 Bio Terminators against enemies that have Universal Antidotes (-2), means 100 pop is killed? Are there any Attack and Defense modifiers? I seem to recall having a good Battle Computer increased the effect.

The Darloks is considered one of the most difficult races to play in MoO1, but I find that they suit my play style very nicely. I hate diplomacy and like sneaksy stuff in games, and even though I had only a core of four planets for much of the game, I was able to steal enough tech to be comptetive. In fact, after the initial reasearch in Computers I could just as well stopped further research.
 
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Darloks are underrated IMO. For impossible they are excellent, and on poor starts are one of the best races (along with silicoids who almost can't be fucked up by a bad start due to being able to colonize everything). All you have to do to stay tech-parity the whole game is dump a few % of your income into stealing while hard teching computers 100%. Then you can keep every enemy in a perpetual state of war with multiple sides due to framing sides or giving away tech and telling them to fight, keeping you pretty safe. Then when you finally go to fight you have by far the most miniaturized ships due to the tech system (having lots and lots of older tech pushing your tech level ahead), leading to ships that can be 33-50% more powerful. Of course other races can get that eventually once they start invading and stealing tech, but when you are up against a wall in MoO the trouble is being able to invade that first planet and start snowballing when impossible AIs are 10 techs ahead and you have 4 planets.

Missiles should get through planetary shields pretty well so long as they are equal level with good computers. Even low-level bombs should be able to get through planetary shields decently, but computer becomes even more important (since they have highly randomized damage range)

Just space your transports so you get 300 each turn. Combat is a series of 1v1 fights so you don't lose anything that way.

Dunno about bioweapons.
 
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octavius

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I found the game hardest in the beginning when it took a really long time to get a break on the spying, despite having superior Computer tech. Then in the mid game I had some turns when I managed to steal tech from all 3 remaining opponents, bleeding everyone but the Meklars dry. Then the Meklars became all powerful, and I had great problems stealing from them.

They also had this nightmare fleet:
bkegm19.jpg

Now they have an even larger nightmare fleet.
Look at those stats! No weaknesses to exploit, and Teleport assures them first strike.
This fleet is practically invulnerable unless you have larger numbers, or ships with Black Hole Generators (which I don't have yet) that survive long enough to use them.

Fusion Bombs had no effect on size XX Planetary Sheilds, and Anti-Matter Torpedoes very little effect, so I was forced to rely on Proton Torpedos (75 damage, which is more 25 more than the manual says).

The good thing about the Darloks is that they can come back from a bad start, while the Alkaris and Mrrshans need a good start, at least on Impossible. Getting the other races to fight each other is also a good bonus.
And when they all unite for Final War, it just means extra targets for indistrial espionage, since the ones I had surpassed now gets all the tech from the top dog.
 
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Fusion is your best bombs? Yikes. Try missiles instead of torpedoes, they don't have a 50% damage reduction attacking planets.

For space combat go-to is usually spamming a million small ships that are too fast to be hit. Use cloaking if needed.
 
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octavius

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Fusion is your best bombs? Yikes. Try missiles instead of torpedoes, they don't have a 50% damage reduction attacking planets.

Really? Damned, so many things to keep track of. And next time the MoO bug bites me I've probably forgot half of it...
Anyway, the Proton Torpedos do their job (after softening up the bases with Ion or Neutron streams), and Herculite Missiles only do 25 Damage, so the PT are still better.

For space combat go-to is usually spamming a million small ships that are too fast to be hit. Use cloaking if needed.

Heh, I never seem to get enough stuff on small fighers. Small Bombers OTOH I often use, if there are bombs to equip them with, that is.
 

octavius

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This was a weird game. Suddenly the Meklars had 32,000 Penetrators (medium sized ships with 72 HP) from out of nowhere, where they earlier only had about 500 of them.
Nice fodder for my new battleships with Black Hole Generators, backed with a swarm of 2500 fighters with Particle Beams.
But the Meklar death fleet has kept running away from battles the whole game, refusing me the showdown. :(
Oh well, with the capability to produce thousands of Fighters each turn, and having support ships with Teleport, BGH and Neuron Stream I declare the game won for the Darloks.
I've never seen an AI being that timid. The Silicoids kept sending ships in my direction, but the Meklars never did.
Using the UOP m patch.
 
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octavius

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So, is it at all possible to follow the advice in manual and engage in early war playing the Alkaris, if playing on Impossble?
I tried, and I don't see how it's possible, when the enemy (the ever present Sakkras, yet a-fucking-gain) can produce 20 medium ships and 3 missile bases each turn from three planets, while I struggle to build even one medium ship each turn on my home planet.
It's crazy, but in my current game the Sakkras have 4 planets and I have 17, 3 of them Rich, yet the Sakkras outproduce me. They don't have Improved Robotic Controls (and neither have I, naturally). They do have Eco Restoration, something I don't have, and which refuse to appear as researchable tech.

So I'm being forced to play the Alkaris more like other races, except I go for small ships instead of huge battleships.
 
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Are your planets at industry cap? Are you sure they aren't making small ships? That sounds like an awfully huge discrepancy.
 

octavius

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Are your planets at industry cap?

Yes, but no Robot Controls and no Eco Restoration, means that I only have 240 factories that produce 127 BC, which is barely enough to cover the cost of one medium ship.

Are you sure they aren't making small ships? That sounds like an awfully huge discrepancy.

They have 18 HP, so they are medium.
 

TigerKnee

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It's a "relative timing" thing I guess - you're probably going to be out-teched by about half of the races with better economy so you better start some kind of war sooner or later to try to catch up.
 

octavius

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It's a "relative timing" thing I guess - you're probably going to be out-teched by about half of the races with better economy so you better start some kind of war sooner or later to try to catch up.

Yeah, once you crack your first enemy planet with factories and get some new tech, things usually improve dramatically.
Problem is that races like the Sakkra seem to be able to build 20 missile bases before you are ready to send a fleet.
In my current game I play the Bulrathi, and I just can't get anything better than Retro Rockets, so I'm stuck with Warp 1 and (thanks to Inertial stabilizer) Combat Speed 2. I can forget about attacking the Sakkras, but the Mrrshans also declared war on me (it's "funny" how on Impossible I usually end up fighting on two fronts, and races that are supposed to enemies ally with each other). For some reason the Mrrshans have far worse production capabilities than the Sakkras, so it's much easier to invade a Mrrshans 125 pop planet than much smaller Sakkra planets, since it only has 4 Missile Bases (despite the Mrrshans even having Improved Robot Control III).
I dunno why, but the Sakkras always seem to be able produce way more ships and MB than they are supposed to, even when they don't have many planets, while most of the other races are more "normal", like the Mrrshans.
Sakkras are supposed to be one of the weaker races, but they are my arch-enemies; they are my neigbhours in 8/10 of the games I play, and they nearly always do well and attack me.
The Alkaris OTOH is the race I have most problems playing myself. I just can't get a break when playing the birds.

Anyway, the standard way for me to get win, is to build huge battleships which survive long enough to take out enemy bases, and that can protect my planets. With the Alkaris I go for small ships instead; maybe that's not such a good idea after all. They are effective, but with poor production (thanks to having to allocate half the total BCs on cleaning) every one you lose hurts, so they lead to too many pyrrhic victories.
 
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AI doesn't split planet pops to improve planet growth IIRC, so the Sakkra bonus is a lot better for them. That said I think its 90% dependent on the map layout who becomes strong. I've had a game where I've played Darlok and never needed to espionage because I colonized around 40% of the galaxy without needing to war, just because random spawns and planet placement cut off a about a 1/3rd slice of the galaxy strictly for me.

I highly recommend giving away tech early on to the AI in order to get on their good side. Once they like you you won't have much to fear of a random DoW.
 

octavius

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AI doesn't split planet pops to improve planet growth IIRC, so the Sakkra bonus is a lot better for them.

Good point.

That said I think its 90% dependent on the map layout who becomes strong. I've had a game where I've played Darlok and never needed to espionage because I colonized around 40% of the galaxy without needing to war, just because random spawns and planet placement cut off a about a 1/3rd slice of the galaxy strictly for me.

Reminds me of a game I played as Silicoids (Large or Huge, Hard) where I had the entire western side of the map to myself. Easiest game of MoO I ever won.

I highly recommend giving away tech early on to the AI in order to get on their good side. Once they like you you won't have much to fear of a random DoW.

That's my weakness as a gamer; I just can't into the whole diplomacy/asskissing/bribery thing, even though I objectively know it's useful.
I try to be a nice and equal neighbour instead, establishing trade agreements (that rarely last long enough to pay themselves off unless I play the Humans) and swapping tech.
 
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That's my weakness as a gamer; I just can't into the whole diplomacy/asskissing/bribery thing, even though I objectively know it's useful.
I try to be a nice and equal neighbour instead, establishing trade agreements (that rarely last long enough to pay themselves off unless I play the Humans) and swapping tech.

I used to be this way. Then I counted up how many bonuses the AI had (not in MoO, in Civ 4, but its the same in most 4x) and realized that early game anything I give them is only going to save them like 2-4 turns and as long as its not an economic bonus its not going to speed their growth curve, which is the essential thing. Just try to make sure you have contact with every race and give them all the same thing so that one doesn't trade it to another without you getting the relations boost.

MoO1 is honestly very polite about not attacking if you have high relations. Getting framed for something hurts relations, sometimes random border events cause issues, and relations tank once you get to a certain size, but you can *always* prevent war by keeping relations high enough as far as I know (haven't tried outright conquering a planet with max relations but now I want to see what happens). If you have to give them half the techs you have, it can still be worth it if they aren't the leading civ and you can use the good relations to keep most of the galaxy at war with each other.
 

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