Mask of the Betrayer '15

[ERYFKRAD]

Sorry but I don't buy this. If I cannot buy your world, I cannot buy your story or your NPCs.

Did you buy the gaem tho?

Why does it matter?

Wow, I don't remember it looking that bad.

 

[opium fiend]

Actually, I'm giving it another try ATM and it doesn't look worse than newer gen titles such as deus ex HR. At least, it doesn't feel worse.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Actually, I'm giving it another try ATM and it doesn't look worse than newer gen titles such as deus ex HR. At least, it doesn't feel worse.

My point exactly.

 

[ArchAngel]

I found the world they put you in less logical than Fo4. Your lvl 20 characters move around the world suddenly filled by super high level barbarians and spellcasters. The simple innkeeper has the power to kick you out of his shanty inn without you being able to do anything, every mercenary is super high level.
"When everyone is special nobody is" - this has been in my brain for too long during playing of this game. You gained your lvl 20 by doing so many shit, beating ancient evil, being a Lord, killing few adult Dragons and many many other stuff. Suddenly you are thrown in an area full of high level everyone without any explanation. Sorry but I don't buy this. If I cannot buy your world, I cannot buy your story or your NPCs.
This is the reason why I don't think this game is good like many here.
I guess RPGCodex does not scale to your level -- except for select games...

Well, yeah. MotB is Planescape reborn, it isn't supposed to have sensible system design except for supporting every alignment in terms of choices and reactivity and maintaining a creepy existential atmosphere.

Also mostly that's just D&D.

No that is not just D&D. Not even close. That might be D&D under some crap DM that gave 0 effort to make sure his campaign makes sense and that is how MotB felt as well. 0 effort.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Also mostly that's just D&D.
No that is not just D&D. Not even close. That might be D&D under some crap DM that gave 0 effort to make sure his campaign makes sense and that is how MotB felt as well. 0 effort.

Did you have trouble with the spirit meter

 

[ArchAngel]

Also mostly that's just D&D.
No that is not just D&D. Not even close. That might be D&D under some crap DM that gave 0 effort to make sure his campaign makes sense and that is how MotB felt as well. 0 effort.

Did you have trouble with the spirit meter

Spirit meter was irritating but not the biggest problem of the game. I was more mad that the world around made 0 sense.
Even Thayan wizards cannot stop all those high level characters that MotB area is full off.

 

[laclongquan]

I found the world they put you in less logical than Fo4. Your lvl 20 characters move around the world suddenly filled by super high level barbarians and spellcasters. The simple innkeeper has the power to kick you out of his shanty inn without you being able to do anything, every mercenary is super high level.
"When everyone is special nobody is" - this has been in my brain for too long during playing of this game. You gained your lvl 20 by doing so many shit, beating ancient evil, being a Lord, killing few adult Dragons and many many other stuff. Suddenly you are thrown in an area full of high level everyone without any explanation. Sorry but I don't buy this. If I cannot buy your world, I cannot buy your story or your NPCs.
This is the reason why I don't think this game is good like many here.
I guess RPGCodex does not scale to your level -- except for select games...

Neverwinter lands is a civilized region, with big cities and shits~ Rashemen is the harsh uncivilized wilderness near the powerful centre of magicians in Thay. By every fantasy logic you ever met or read, basic level average in latter should be higher than NW city. Why would its level be lower?

If you want to play low level campaign and MOTB doesnt fit your taste, say it. Just dont badmouth what you dont like.

 

[ArchAngel]

I found the world they put you in less logical than Fo4. Your lvl 20 characters move around the world suddenly filled by super high level barbarians and spellcasters. The simple innkeeper has the power to kick you out of his shanty inn without you being able to do anything, every mercenary is super high level.
"When everyone is special nobody is" - this has been in my brain for too long during playing of this game. You gained your lvl 20 by doing so many shit, beating ancient evil, being a Lord, killing few adult Dragons and many many other stuff. Suddenly you are thrown in an area full of high level everyone without any explanation. Sorry but I don't buy this. If I cannot buy your world, I cannot buy your story or your NPCs.
This is the reason why I don't think this game is good like many here.
I guess RPGCodex does not scale to your level -- except for select games...

Neverwinter lands is a civilized region, with big cities and shits~ Rashemen is the harsh uncivilized wilderness near the powerful centre of magicians in Thay. By every fantasy logic you ever met or read, basic level average in latter should be higher than NW city. Why would its level be lower?

If you want to play low level campaign and MOTB doesnt fit your taste, say it. Just dont badmouth what you dont like.

There is a huge difference between "city with lvl 2 guard" and wilderness with lvl 16+ barbarians and mercs. If you don't understand this you are braindead.
What keeps Thay in check are powerful Witches of Rashemen, not their non existent tribes of lvl 16+ lvl barbarians.

For a epic campaign they should have put the game into such a setting, not choose random land and level scale everyone.

 

[laclongquan]

There is? Anyone with brains know that common conception perceive only dumb and weak people join city guards. If they are better than average, being mercenary for hire or adventurers pay better correspondingly. Protect a high value trade caravans from city to city has to pay better than pounding the street after civilians (thieves), since it's so much more dangerous.

In the wilderness, the dumb and weak get eaten, from cannibalism tribe, to wild gods live in the mounds, to common animal. A pack of wolves is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[ArchAngel]

There is? Anyone with brains know that common conception perceive only dumb and weak people join city guards. If they are better than average, being mercenary for hire or adventurers pay better correspondingly. Protect a high value trade caravans from city to city has to pay better than pounding the street after civilians (thieves), since it's so much more dangerous.

In the wilderness, the dumb and weak get eaten, from cannibalism tribe, to wild gods live in the mounds, to common animal. A pack of wolves is nothing to sneeze at.

There is nothing in the wilderness that lets whole tribes get to such high levels. Stop being a dumbfuck.
These tribes would have to conquer whole continents by now to achieve that and beat a few lesser demon armies.

Thay would be in ruins by now for sure.

 

[opium fiend]

My point exactly.

Sorry, it's a misunderstanding than. It's insane how well that game has aged.

 

[Lacrymas]

As much as I hate to admit it, ArchAngel is right in this. At level ~11-12 a person is already a veteran capable of leading armies. Random barbarians fighting wolves won't get close to that, let alone level 16. They *did* level scale the entire campaign, but that's only to accommodate the OC. They should've ended the OC at level 14 at the most (at level 12 you are a knight with a stronghold and by level 14 you've already dealt with (young) dragons and the King of Shadows). I also agree that the encounter design was shit, but that's because the whole game's engine and "feel" was shit.

 

[Delterius]

but that's because the whole game's engine and "feel" was shit.

This is key to why ArchAngel's criticism is pertinent.

Mask of the Betrayer is a well liked campaign for reasons that have little to do with the game itself. It is impossible to understate how awkward every single action feel in the Neverwinter Nights engines. Movement is so bad that the exercise of 'party based combat' feels more like building sandcastles with no water. As far as D&D CRPGs go, the fun in NwN ends at character creation, after which there's only suffering. It is known that fourteen people have died in their struggle against the camera.

At which point some people say that's not really a problem. Its not hard to make a fighter type character that mows down enemies and nobody is going to judge you for playing this shitty engine on easy. At which point we've reached the bottom of the barrel.

You see, what people enjoy in MotB is the narrative. Its themes, quests and characters all feed on each other. Different questlines all come together in the end and that is not simply because the protagonist happens to be around, its because the story builds up to that. MotB is as far away from the 'random adventuring through the woods' or the 'generic struggle between Good/Evil/Law/Chaos' as it can be. The script is obviously strong and it shows despite the shortcomings of everything else. At least as far as videogame narratives go. None of that however excuse all the subpar work put into implementing said script, such as filling a whole academy with 'apprentice' thayan wizards who reached level 20.

 

[Lacrymas]

You see, what people enjoy in MotB is the narrative.

Pretty ironic, isn't it? :p It's like enjoying (and putting on a pedestal as a good example) a theater play because of the props.

 

[ArchAngel]

but that's because the whole game's engine and "feel" was shit.

This is key to why ArchAngel's criticism is pertinent.

Mask of the Betrayer is a well liked campaign for reasons that have little to do with the game itself. It is impossible to understate how awkward every single action feel in the Neverwinter Nights engines. Movement is so bad that the exercise of 'party based combat' feels more like building sandcastles with no water. As far as D&D CRPGs go, the fun in NwN ends at character creation, after which there's only suffering. It is known that fourteen people have died in their struggle against the camera.

At which point some people say that's not really a problem. Its not hard to make a fighter type character that mows down enemies and nobody is going to judge you for playing this shitty engine on easy. At which point we've reached the bottom of the barrel.

You see, what people enjoy in MotB is the narrative. Its themes, quests and characters all feed on each other. Different questlines all come together in the end and that is not simply because the protagonist happens to be around, its because the story builds up to that. MotB is as far away from the 'random adventuring through the woods' or the 'generic struggle between Good/Evil/Law/Chaos' as it can be. The script is obviously strong and it shows despite the shortcomings of everything else. At least as far as videogame narratives go. None of that however excuse all the subpar work put into implementing said script, such as filling a whole academy with 'apprentice' thayan wizards who reached level 20.

I don't agree with this. The world you are put into and how it is presented is part of the story. It is all connected and feeds off each other.

How would Game of Thrones look if they basis of the story is magic and dragon are slowly returning but characters from start run into flying wizards with fireballs that teleport around? It would suck.
So does MotB suck overall even if the NPCs and main story are good.
One could forgive it MotB had a bit of bullshit but it is full of it. That is why I said 0 effort.

PST is mostly OK in this regard. Setting and story completed each other, they didn't go against.

Also NWN1: HotU managed to convince me why enemies are tough in that setting. So did BG2: ToB. In ToB you even fight and murder armies of lower level mooks although they did go a bit overboard but most of the game does not have too many too high level enemies.

 

[Delterius]

You see, what people enjoy in MotB is the narrative.

Pretty ironic, isn't it? :p It's like enjoying (and putting on a pedestal as a good example) a theater play because of the props.

Worse. Its like enjoying a theater play because of an above average script in a sea of incompetence, which is fair. What isn't, however, is to enjoy that same script in spite of the fact that three thirds of the cast have a severe case of diarrhea and need to go to the privy every 3 min.

I don't agree with this. The world you are put into and how it is presented is part of the story. It is all connected and feeds off each other.

I don't disagree with you as I myself tend to look at games as full narrative experiences. In that regard MotB isn't very good, despite my personal enjoyment of it.

 

[laclongquan]

There is? Anyone with brains know that common conception perceive only dumb and weak people join city guards. If they are better than average, being mercenary for hire or adventurers pay better correspondingly. Protect a high value trade caravans from city to city has to pay better than pounding the street after civilians (thieves), since it's so much more dangerous.

In the wilderness, the dumb and weak get eaten, from cannibalism tribe, to wild gods live in the mounds, to common animal. A pack of wolves is nothing to sneeze at.

There is nothing in the wilderness that lets whole tribes get to such high levels. Stop being a dumbfuck.
These tribes would have to conquer whole continents by now to achieve that and beat a few lesser demon armies.

Thay would be in ruins by now for sure.

Bitch please~ Where do dragons live? In the urban area? Hah. And those pack of wolves in the wild, who you do think killing them? Who is the barbarian in the region with wolfhead cloak? Wild animals in fantasy is a real threat and they dont live near cities now do they? Where is the ruin fill with treasures and/or xp-carriers? In the backs alley behind main street? I can do this all day.

And being strong individually doesnt mean you can win in war, group versus group. Precisely because the humans in cities are weak that they develop tactics and strategy to cover for that weakness. Cooperation is the key in war. And to develop empire or conquer continent, you need cooperation.

 

[ArchAngel]

For the record I did finish MotB once and played it again from start with few other classes for a while. It was a solid game overall, my negative comments are only because I don't even consider it top 10 or top 20 rpgs because of problems I talked about while lots here worship it for reasons I don't understand.
I am not trying to say the game is bad or trash, just not outstanding.

 

[ArchAngel]

There is? Anyone with brains know that common conception perceive only dumb and weak people join city guards. If they are better than average, being mercenary for hire or adventurers pay better correspondingly. Protect a high value trade caravans from city to city has to pay better than pounding the street after civilians (thieves), since it's so much more dangerous.

In the wilderness, the dumb and weak get eaten, from cannibalism tribe, to wild gods live in the mounds, to common animal. A pack of wolves is nothing to sneeze at.

There is nothing in the wilderness that lets whole tribes get to such high levels. Stop being a dumbfuck.
These tribes would have to conquer whole continents by now to achieve that and beat a few lesser demon armies.

Thay would be in ruins by now for sure.

Bitch please~ Where do dragons live? In the urban area? Hah. And those pack of wolves in the wild, who you do think killing them? Who is the barbarian in the region with wolfhead cloak? Wild animals in fantasy is a real threat and they dont live near cities now do they? Where is the ruin fill with treasures and/or xp-carriers? In the backs alley behind main street? I can do this all day.

And being strong individually doesnt mean you can win in war, group versus group. Precisely because the humans in cities are weak that they develop tactics and strategy to cover for that weakness. Cooperation is the key in war. And to develop empire or conquer continent, you need cooperation.

 

[laclongquan]

Your point being?

 

[ArchAngel]

Your point being?

Tribals stick together?

 

[laclongquan]

out of context and totally irrevelant to the point~

 

[oldmanpaco]

You see, what people enjoy in MotB is the narrative.

Pretty ironic, isn't it? :p It's like enjoying (and putting on a pedestal as a good example) a theater play because of the props.

Worse. Its like enjoying a theater play because of an above average script in a sea of incompetence, which is fair. What isn't, however, is to enjoy that same script in spite of the fact that three thirds of the cast have a severe case of diarrhea and need to go to the privy every 3 min.

Do you guys have any witty analogies for PS:T as well. Maybe like enjoying porn for the script?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

What can change the nature of a pizza delivery man?


(a broke lady in a camisole)

 

[Parabalus]

Questions about dialogue checks (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate):

Are they static [Bluff 12] or rolls?
Are they usual and/or important? If not for outcome, for storyfaggotry?
Is it recommended to pick classes with them as class skills, since the max values will otherwise be "halved"?
Are there other dialogue-related skills? Taunt? Lore?

They are static.

I'd say one of the 3 is used in about 1/2 of all conversations, I always played with them, otherwise a lot of possibly interesting encounters boil down to HULK SMASH.

Don't know the numbers by heart, but a lot of MotB skill checks were pretty high, so unless your charisma is huge I think you'd fail some.

Lore is used a lot, most other skills have a few (minor) uses, alongside raw stats.