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Absinthe

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I'm down too. That would accomplish a lot of objectives in a single mission.

Hm... except we'd still want to pursue the other manual.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
You wanna know how to get Zhang Manlou? They pull out a dagger, you pull out your Dragon Palms. He sends one of yours to the physician, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the jianghu way! And that's how you get Zhang Manlou. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?
 

Baltika9

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Absinthe, Esquilax, you guys show me a guaranteed, surefire and no-fail plan that will get our Cult and the Orthodox Sects to sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya together, and I will support it with all I've got.
You wanna know how to get Zhang Manlou? They pull out a dagger, you pull out your Dragon Palms. He sends one of yours to the physician, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the jianghu way! And that's how you get Zhang Manlou. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?
Where do I sign?
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

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Baltika is going to be the guy that gets shot in the elevator. :untouchables:
 

Baltika9

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Only if you get to be the guy with his skull bashed in at a reception by zhang manxing.
 

treave

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Eh, when the time comes you'll know. It'd be a waste if the supposedly incorruptible Imperial Constables didn't go up against the Zhang clan sooner or later. Before that, focus on the stuff ahead of... yeah, fucking bandwagon, eh?

I'll see if I can update in a few hours.
 

Absinthe

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If we destabilize or depose Nie Wuxing, get Song Lingshu back in power, have Jiu Mou take over the beggar's sect or cut a deal with the current head, get Shangguan Chuji as the leader of the Ten Swords block, and get some imperial backing to resolve this shit peacefully, then we should be in a good position for a peaceful solution. For bonus points we could try to see if Yuhua Hall would care to become a Ninth Sect, but odds are their answer will be "oh hell no - I am staying out of this shit." We'd have to offer them some amazing incentives. Anyway, a number of these goals are quite doable.
 
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Baltika9

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If we destabilize Nie Wuxing, get Song Lingshu back in power, have Jiu Mou take over the beggar's sect or cut a deal with the current head, get Chagguan Chuji as the leader of the Ten Swords block, and get some imperial backing to resolve this shit peacefully, then we should be in a good position for a peaceful solution.
Okay, how are we going to do that?
Between our horrible reputation, the hunt for the manuals, the Ten Great Swords faction, BJ's political genius and Shun being unable to publicly associate himself with the Cult or us at all for fear of his own stability, that's a tall fucking order. Don't get me wrong, I want to be accepted by the Eight Sects as part of their circle, but I fear that at this point it's pretty much impossible. Everyone here knows me as the dreamer with his head in the clouds (look up my posts in the EPIC days, they go something like "GUYS WE CAN TOTALLY DO THIS!") but I think that in this instance we should just take the advice of our Ameshas and focus on acquiring power for the Temple and preparing for the inevitable bloodshed.
If any of the Sects stay out of it, it'll be a blessing.
 

Esquilax

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Absinthe, Esquilax, you guys show me a guaranteed, surefire and no-fail plan that will get our Cult and the Orthodox Sects to sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya together, and I will support it with all I've got.

Can we not indulge in retarded false dichotomies here? Can we not split the situation into either "A horrific escalation between the Fire Cult and the Eight Sects, where we do the exact same thing that Ahura would have done had we not intervened" or "Try a futile plan to reconcile the Eight Sects and the Fire Cult by revealing that Wang Zhengchong was killed by his own, despite nobody believing you"? There is a lot of grey area between the two.

We were sent out into the world on the recommendation of our Amesha Spenta to increase our own power so that the Eight Sects would be deterred from attacking, that's true, but maybe we shouldn't use the same exact strategy that the guy who got Christopher Reeve'd by Big Wang did. The definition of insanity: doing the same thing and expecting different results. Maybe his way sucks. Maybe we should seek a middle ground between two insane, extreme options, but that would require us to be sensible, and we can't have that, now can we?

The Fire Cult and the Eight Sects are not going to reconcile, but as the Lord of the Fire Cult, we have a lot of sway in how the Eight Sects view our organization. If we make some efforts at aiding them and making friends, and trying to make up for the Qingcheng debacle, then perhaps we, and our entire group won't be seen as the same as it was in Ahura's time. Leadership matters a great deal; look at how the change in leadership changed the Eight Sects in two short years. If we make up for the Maniac-style slaughter at Qingcheng with a few favours for some of the more reasonable sects, then maybe they want see us as Ahura II.

Absinthe's suggestions for nudging a change in leadership (Qingcheng has been made more difficult, but some heroism at Youxia City might turn things around*, Jiu Mou is another BRO candidate as well) are good ones. Other options are to make amends with the sects that spoke up for us - Wudang, Emei and Shaolin. There's a lot of area between the insane, hypothetical Clevian ITZ that you're envisioning (perhaps even welcoming) and some kumbaya bullshit.

Between our horrible reputation, the hunt for the manuals, the Ten Great Swords faction, BJ's political genius and Shun being unable to publicly associate himself with the Cult or us at all for fear of his won stability, that's a tall fucking order. Don't get me wrong, I want to be accepted by the Eight Sects as part of their circle, but I fear that at this point it's pretty much impossible. Everyone here knows me as the dreamer with his head in the clouds (look up my posts in the EPIC days, they go something like "GUYS WE CAN TOTALLY DO THIS!") but I think that in this instance we should just take the advice of our Ameshas and focus on acquiring power for the Temple and preparing for the inevitable bloodshed.

I could turn things around and say "How are we going to fight all Eight Sects with our force, which is much, much weaker than theirs?" Speaking of dreams, I think you're dreaming of a war that we can't possibly win.

As for what exactly we'll do - I suppose we'll cross that bridge when we reach it. I can draw up hypothetical scenarios, but we can make up nonsensical scenarios all day like that. It means nothing.

* EDIT: Okay, that didn't work out well last time. Bad choice of words. :lol:
 
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Absinthe

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Destabilizing Nie Wuxing would be part of the Zhang family hunt. At the same time, if Song Lingshu manages to pick up any solid credit in the process with the constables, then she could establish herself as a righteous and respectable leader to retake her sect. The Ten Swords gathering remains to be seen, but Shangguan Chuji enjoys a very good reputation which would make him an instant candidate for leader. It won't be the easiest thing to make him the leader, but it should be doable. While Shun might not publicly associate with the cult, he doesn't need to; he can just say "you guys are going to work out a peaceful solution" and throw his weight behind it.

Anyway, I'm saying that a peaceful solution is doable, so we shouldn't rush to worst case scenario escalations.
 

Baltika9

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I could turn things around and say "How are we going to fight all Eight Sects with our force, which is much, much weaker than theirs?" Speaking of dreams, I think you're dreaming of a war that we can't possibly win.
More like "having nightmares about." I don't want it, but I fear that an assault by the UNBRO sects of Huehueshan, Taishan, Kunlun, Qingcheng (provided we don't get Lingshu back in power) and the Beggars under their new leader is unavoidable. I'm all for building foundations for the future, doing solid favors to the BRO sects of Emei-Wudang-Shaolin, etc... but at the same time I can't help but think that expecting all of them to just accept us as a new and reformed Fire Cult under the leadership of Xu Jing is also too idealistic. Conflict with them is pretty much unavoidable at this point, especially since we hold the Wuxiang Qiankun Skill at our Temple.
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst, etc...
 

Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
We were sent out into the world on the recommendation of our Amesha Spenta to increase our own power so that the Eight Sects would be deterred from attacking, that's true, but maybe we shouldn't use the same exact strategy that the guy who got Christopher Reeve'd by Big Wang did. The definition of insanity: doing the same thing and expecting different results. Maybe his way sucks. Maybe we should seek a middle ground between two insane, extreme options, but that would require us to be sensible, and we can't have that, now can we?
Now remind me, please, what strategy did Ahura employ, if any.

I don't see why you would keep your power to a minimum as to not provoke people. Doing that is exactly what provokes people into bullying. The fate of the weak is to get exploited or devoured by the strong.

You are weakening the enemies and strengthening yourself on the political arena, but why are you willing to forego increasing your faction's fighting power as well to back the politics up? Building it up does not necessitate using it. If anything, it helps resolving certain matters peacefully because the alternative does not appeal to anybody.
 
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Absinthe

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Ahura's strategy was to be the biggest, baddest motherfucker in the room and make sure everyone else bowed down or got bent.

Also, there's some space between "super techniques for all the amesha" and "do nothing to improve the Fire Temple's defenses." For instance, we gave them an upgrade with the fire medicine.
 

Baltika9

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Ahura's strategy was to be the biggest, baddest motherfucker in the room and make sure everyone else bowed down or got bent.
Ahura's "strategy" was to replace the Eight Sects as the protectors of the land. What I envision us doing is getting ourselves and our Ameshas to such a level of power that we can tell the sects "don't fuck with me and I won't fuck with you" and have it actually work. And if they still decide to attack us, then we will be able to back up our talk with deeds.
 

Absinthe

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And what I envision as the result of your reckless distribution of super techniques is the ancient chinese equivalent of a world war, where we would play Germany.

I'd rather create separate power blocs to keep the peace than tie ourselves to the Fire Cult and escalate shit in the hopes that nobody would try to call our bluff.
 

Baltika9

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And what I envision as the result of your reckless distribution of super techniques is the ancient chinese equivalent of a world war, where we would play Germany.

I'd rather create separate power blocs to keep the peace than tie ourselves to the Fire Cult and escalate shit in the hopes that nobody would try to call our bluff.
That kinda doesn't make sense. Germany was gangbanged because it was the aggressor, not because it had superweapons, i.e Ahura's approach. If we want to talk in modern terms, this would be more like a nuclear peace.
 

Absinthe

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I'm talking World War 1, where everyone was getting ready for glorious war and - surprise - shit hit the fan.

Your concept is still ridiculously tenuous and dangerous. The US and Russia almost nuked the shit out of each other on a number of occasions. Stop thinking of a nuclear standoff as a good idea.
 

Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Esquilax said:
Who says we're not building up our fighting power? We're looking for the manual, aren't we? But at the same time, we've decided not to take it from Shaolin, even though we had the opportunity to. If our relationships with the Eight Sects don't matter and it's all going to go to shit and devolve in a bloody war anyways, why not just YOLOTIGER our way through the Shaolin Library and get it instead of the possibly even more dangerous trip to Youxia City?
Yes, it is going to devolve in a bloody war. I don't think it is avoidable right now. But our relationships are going to determine how supportive certain sects will be of the war efforts and how ready they will be for peace negotiations.

That is why we play nice. If they think we can't be reasoned with at all, they will wage a war for extermination. If they thnk otherwise, after an initial failure or two they might decide that this is not worth it, and resort to other methods.

Esquilax said:
I can't believe that I'm arguing this with the two biggest FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC proponents in this LP.
That's because you are not quite following what we are arguing about.
 
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Baltika9

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I'm talking World War 1.
WWI was more about entangling alliances which started with "Oh, you attacked Serbia? We attack you!" "You attack us? Then we call in our friends!" "Well, so do we!" ad infinitum.
Anyway, I think we're having a miscommunication here. I am for making friends with the BRO sects and fostering relations with them, I am for building goodwill with Shangguan (getting him as the leader of the Ten Great Swords faction is a great idea, Absinthe, gotta hand it to you. i honestly didn't think about it like that). But at the same time, I do not expect all the Sects to cut us a break and just say "Oh, new leadership? Xu Jing is your new Lord? Never mind, welcome to the club!" Bloodshed and confrontations will happen with at least half of the sects, there is too much bad blood on both sides, so I am sure it will be unavoidable, so to that end I am in favor of strengthening our personal position, via manuals and training up our Ameshas as much as possible.

Say what you want about the Cold War, but it never did escalate into full scale nuclear war.
 

Kipeci

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I'm talking World War 1, where everyone was getting ready for glorious war and - surprise - shit hit the fan.

Your concept is still ridiculously tenuous and dangerous. The US and Russia almost nuked the shit out of each other on a number of occasions. Stop thinking of a nuclear standoff as a good idea.
It's a hell of a lot better than the other side being hostile while having nukes while you have nothing, though. Can you think of both nations being able to go without a direct war over that period if the Soviets hadn't later developed nukes? They'd had very hostile relations earlier and at one point some US forces had invaded to support the Whites during the Civil War before either side had nukes. With nukes, the stakes just became too high.

I don't see why there's this ridiculous dichotomy. Go with Ahura's strategy of being an absurdly powerful badass, don't go with his strategy of antagonizing everyone else to prove that you have a massive, throbbing dick so that you get put down by a bigger fish who previously would have had no real reason to deal with you. It's good to pursue friends where possible but it may be sufficient to just leave them at a point where they're friendly enough they won't join in on an attack against you, since actually getting the orthodox sects to fight against each other in a controversy over whether to destroy or defend a foreign fire cult that previously killed a good number of orthodox pugilists all around probably isn't going to happen. Being strong has its own benefits... having power on the scale of the five great pugilists will inevitably draw people who want to apprentice themselves to Jing or the other absurdly powerful Amesha Spenta and are willing to join the cult to do so, swelling the ranks of the Fire Cult with martial hopefuls as well as helping to even the disparity in power. If Jing could go with the 100 man match before, how many more pugilists of that power could he handle now, let alone with greater power? And with the greatly reduced average strength of the Orthodox heads, Jing might actually be one of the stronger pugilists out there already even considering the masters.
 

Esquilax

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I think we can all agree on one thing: the historical analogies displayed here are probably off-the-mark and retarded.
 

Baltika9

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Well, we can call a peace conference over a serving of delicious Persian ice cream, since they invented it around 400 BC and we are bound to have at lest one craftsman among the exiles. Everyone loves ice cream, right?
 

treave

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Codex 2012
wait til you see level 11 of Jing's skill

Zhang Manxing lies on the cold ground, coughing, writhing. The oozing pustules all over his body leak a disgusting mixture of black, red and white. His fingers claw the earth. He is dying. Cast out by his family who had been fearful of the disease that took him, he had no place to go but to find a spot in the forest and await his death. Alone.

He hates. There is so much hate in him, so much anger at this unfairness that the world has dealt him, that he swears his ghost will haunt the earth forever. What did he do to deserve this? Nothing. He knows that he did nothing to deserve this fate. A series of painful coughs rack his frail, emaciated frame as his back arches, his muscles seizing up in agony. He rolls on his back, throat too parched and hoarse to even scream. His face is pointed at the sky, but he sees nothing. His eyes are useless except to distinguish between light and dark, another side-effect of the disease that has all but killed him.

It is night, isn't it? He is sure it must be night, though laying there in the cold winter he has lost all track of time. He is sure that it was dark just moments before, but there is now light. Light that grows brighter by the second. The wind whips up. There is a roaring in the distance. Louder. Louder. It seems to come from high above him. From the heavens. Could it be that the gods are pitying him? Is he being sent salvation? He dares not hope.

He feels the fire before he hears it coming. The heat sears his body, the blast flings him away. His mind is too scrambled to understand anything of what has just happened, slipping away into darkness.

In the darkness there is nothing.

But there are voices.

Voices that promise him things.

Things like...

Strength.

Power.

Immortality.

***

Zhang Manxing opens his eyes. His sight is clear... perhaps clearer than it has ever been his whole life. He slowly sits up, still shaken, vague memories of fire and death vanishing with every passing second. He looks at his body. He is naked, but whole. His sores are no more. His prized instrument is back where it belongs, between his legs. A throb of pleasure runs up his spine unbidden.

As he gets shakily to his feet, he surveys the land before him.

Then, he begins laughing.
 

Baltika9

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Yeah, manxing needs to die in front of our eyes. Not leaving it up to fate or Qilin's poisons.
 

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