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Esquilax

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I'm not talking about specific techniques. How many chances have we had to raise our PER? Once, and this is number two. How many chances have we had to raise our stealth skill? I'm not going back to check, but I'd guess around 4-6 times. 3B certainly seems to be on a secure bandwagon to victory though, so I guess you're safe.

This is a fair point. All things being equal, a technique that boosts stats is more valuable than a technique that boosts skills. However, since we're probably going EXTREME for this one, I just think that we should pick the choices that might allow us to best survive the mission. Any thoughts on how the PER boost would allow us to perform the mission better than Kagemi? That being said, the Wudu qinggong is beginning to appeal to me because I think that AGI 10 might be sufficient to escape from a trap should we unfortunately trigger one. Superhuman reflexes would allow us to get away in time, and since we don't have our neigong at the moment, we'd need the extra push to get us to 10.

If we didn't have the mission to worry about, I'd definitely go for the improvement to Reikan.

As far as I'm concerned Operation Immortal is worth the risk. Either Jing will pull off something completely insane and become a legend (admittedly only one he, Shun, and Zhang Jue will know), or he'll go out stylishly (and probably go down in the history books as a worse villain than his teacher, which is an accomplishment in itself). A lot of the problem with the Youxia city ending was that Jing went down like a bitch, and it wasn't a very fitting ending.

It is true that we're going to have to a very, very good job of it to actually succeed. But hey, it's better than committing the worst act conceivable against the values we've been raised under, and Shun really does not want to have to actually kill his father. He's trying to do what's best for his country, and this is an out that lets him maintain filial piety as a proper ruler should.

Good point that we haven't considered; Jing's been following a moral code that's all about loyalty and taking care of the people close to you, but that personal sense of morality has really clashed with society at large (i.e. betraying your countrymen to protect foreigners - it was the right thing to do from Jing's perspective, but considered to be a disgusting act by pretty much everybody who is respectable). Now it seems that Shun and Jing are facing that dilemma again: killing the Emperor is really the best way out of a bad situation and probably best for the country in the long run so that Shun can take the throne, but it really is an incredibly reprehensible thing to do given the society's Confucian ethics.
 

Tribute

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The thing there is that I'm pretty sure the act of greatest loyalty to his friend is to either take on and pull off Operation Immortal, or to kill the Emperor with his own hands to spare his brother from having to commit the ultimate crime. Jing is willing to do any sort of dirty work, and then accept the appropriate punishment, if it means protecting Shun. B is basically the worst option from that perspective. It is the best option for keeping Jing alive, though.
 

ScubaV

Prophet
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,022
Any thoughts on how the PER boost would allow us to perform the mission better than Kagemi?

Well PER is going to let us spot those traps (be they physical ones or behavioral ones since treave hinted we'd be dealing with the princes). Plus, treave flat out stated this is not a pure stealth mission. Otherwise, Yorikawa could do it himself. Remember when our perception let us know that Dao Ying was more than he seemed? He was hiding his significant martial skill and Jing was able to detect it. That's the kind of shit we need when we're pulling off a sensitive mission. Jing is really good at thinking on his feet, but he needs to be able to detect changing circumstances to do that best.
 

Nevill

Arcane
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Messages
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
However, knowing that this is Codex, a lot of people will be voting for Operation Immortal, even though it's (probably) going to be a disaster. If we do go for this, we have to forget about the challenge and set our skills towards completing this mission and facing this massive obstacle in front of us. For this mission, the main things we'll need are stealth and the ability to sniff out traps somehow. With one eye, that is going to be hard - even Yoriwaka's PER boost only gets us to 7, and we have absolutely no knowledge of traps whatsoever ourselves. Not being seen by anyone doesn't mean shit if you trigger a bunch of pressure plates on your way to the Emperor's chambers and end up dying.
That's absurd. If getting to the Emperor was a problem, then how would we be expected to kill him? No, it is getting him out that is going to be difficult, not getting in and running into some pressure plates that Shun, who probably was in his chambers a few times, can tell you everything about.

I've had a lot of ideas that sounded great while I was drunk too! Something tells me that a sober Shun would have told us that this was a dumb idea.
The preparations to the mission take several days. I bet Shun have sobered up by now, and he still haven't told us to drop it. This is a path he just didn't see, because it wasn't available until you came along. This is something that only you can do, and this is what he really wants you to do. I don't need any further encouragement than this.
 
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Tribute

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Messages
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Wouldn't the Reikan boost be more useful for seeing problems coming in the first place? We can't Stealth our way around them if we don't know they're there, and we don't need to Stealth out of them if we saw them and avoided them ahead of time. Considering how much ridiculous Speech stuff Jing has pulled off with 7 CHA, 7 PER from Reikan might be good enough to pull this off.

Unless you're assuming he'll be too panicked/stressed out over the sheer risk and unlikelihood of pulling this mission off to use it effectively? Overconfidence IS one of Jing's specialties, though, so hopefully that won't be a problem.

If we're purely prioritizing the mission we're going to want the PER boost from Reikan to see bad shit coming, and the AGI boost from Wudu qinggong to get out of/away from it. I think the steel spidersilk thing and getting some other faction's qinggong boosting technique will be more useful for Jing in the long run, though, if we think we can pull it off without the AGI boost now (instead getting it later on from whoever else we decide to make friends with, e.g. Wudang again).
 

Nevill

Arcane
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Messages
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Tribute said:
Wouldn't the Reikan boost be more useful for seeing problems coming in the first place?
1 PER is just not as good as 2 Stealth, when it comes down to numbers.

We were always complaining that we didn't have enough stealth to do this or that, even when we has Reikan available to have up to 8 PER. If that argument didn't work with PER 8, why would it start working when we have 1 less?

1C would be awesome if we could pull it off but it is the YOLOTIGER route so I'm steering clear. I think we should do as Shun wants and go troll his brothers.
It is pretty transparent what Shun wants, and it is not to kill his own father in cold blood:
Shun said:
"Always… always you turn all my logic on its head and show me another path. Oh, how I wish I could go with this plan. It would be so much more fun. So much less troubling.”
That is the kind of argument that defeats itself.

Good point that we haven't considered; Jing's been following a moral code that's all about loyalty and taking care of the people close to you, but that personal sense of morality has really clashed with society at large (i.e. betraying your countrymen to protect foreigners - it was the right thing to do from Jing's perspective, but considered to be a disgusting act by pretty much everybody who is respectable). Now it seems that Shun and Jing are facing that dilemma again: killing the Emperor is really the best way out of a bad situation and probably best for the country in the long run so that Shun can take the throne, but it really is an incredibly reprehensible thing to do given the society's Confucian ethics.
No, it isn't even the best way. If we succeed, then C would really be best, as it reduces the probability of a civil war erupting:
Shun said:
There would be arguments amongst the brothers until I manage to return anyway, but it would certainly reduce the number of siblings willing to make a bid for the throne.
And if it would fail... well, it wouldn't be worse than failing an assassination.
 
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treave

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Codex 2012
Allright, so how do you kill the guy? Ambush him, using your stealth to remain undetected? Get in melee range despite the poison and attempt to heal yourself once you are done? Cling to the ceiling a-la Spiderman to bypass the traps while he is sleeping? What would work short of assembling a team of thugs and overwhelming him with numbers?

I thought that had more to do with the fact that we went for a dangerous mission completely on our own and with a -2 to both our STR and AGI stats. Of course we'd get picked off by the likes of Gao Ying. Nevertheless, I was under the impression that a healthy Jing could be roughly on par with Gao Ying, given his reliance on pressure points and our immunity to those techniques. Of course, Gao Ying has other tricks up his sleeve, but he's still our age and doesn't have the years and experience on us that Bai Jiutian has. I just don't see how a guy our age could be that much better than the Southern Maniac's apprentice, especially given Jing's natural talent.

You guys seem to be mistaking something here. I'm saying that beating him in a straight fight, especially to the extent that you outright kill him, is extremely difficult. I made no mention about him being overwhelmingly superior. He is around your level if you are perfectly healthy, yes. His techniques are well suited to his fighting style and he is highly skilled, making him no easy prey. Best way to defeat him one on one is still to get an open fight where he can't play any tricks, but if you want to actually kill him, with your one eye and no neigong, you're hoping for luck to smile your way.

Now, assassination is just stupid because he's better at you at that game and has been playing it while you were off cavorting with the prince. So he may be about your age, but he both took his training a lot more seriously and actually had a more lethal curriculum. You spent your days fooling around in an arguably privileged position. But that's just how you are. Even though you have the talent, your confidence tends to mean you coast on it. And you aren't the only talented person in the world. Guo Fu is a huge trouble for you in a fight and he is practically untrained. Is it far fetched to think there could be a few others out there who are a match for you given that you only trained all of one and a half years with Zhang Jue while they may have devoted up to a decade of their life to it?
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I'm not talking about specific techniques. How many chances have we had to raise our PER? Once, and this is number two. How many chances have we had to raise our stealth skill? I'm not going back to check, but I'd guess around 4-6 times. 3B certainly seems to be on a secure bandwagon to victory though, so I guess you're safe.
How many chances? Let's see. We picked it up wih Qingggong technique in the Ashina tribe.

We raised it once with Zhang Jue. It pushed it up to 3. That's it, that's where we are now. The next chance to improve it was with the help of Yoriwaka, where we chose Kagemi instead. This update is the only place we were offered to raise it since then.

If we go with the silk, we can't improve it with Qingggong. If we go with Reikan, we pass the chance to learn it with Yoriwaka again.
Where would you come upon it next time? It is pretty rare.

The thing there is that I'm pretty sure the act of greatest loyalty to his friend is to either take on and pull off Operation Immortal, or to kill the Emperor with his own hands to spare his brother from having to commit the ultimate crime. Jing is willing to do any sort of dirty work, and then accept the appropriate punishment, if it means protecting Shun. B is basically the worst option from that perspective. It is the best option for keeping Jing alive, though.
Best option to keep Jing alive would be not to participate in these events at all.
If we are doing this because of our friendship or our sense of loayaly, we'd better do the best job we can.

And I don't see how killing the Emperor would free Shun of the responsibility for the patricide. He won't be killing his father with his hands in either case, he'll ask the others to do it. Like he asked you. Why would it be better for him if you were the one that did it?
 
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Tribute

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Jan 18, 2014
Messages
919
Best option to keep Jing alive would be not to participate in these events at all.
Considering the results of the last vote, that's not on the table anymore.

For the purpose of the "2 points in Stealth vs 1 point in PER" arguments, could we get an explanation of the feats we'll be able to pull off with that +1 PER boost vs without, and the same for with that +2 Stealth than without? It's hard to tell just by the numbers what the difference between 6 PER and 7 PER would actually end up being in terms of capability, for instance.
 
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Tribute

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True. As I remember it the reasoning behind that option (as stated in the option) was in reference to how abhorrent a crime it was, rather than how dangerous it was for anyone personally.
 

Nevill

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Messages
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Tribute said:
For the purpose of the "2 points in Stealth vs 1 point in PER" arguments, could we get an explanation of the feats we'll be able to pull off with that +1 PER boost vs without, and the same for with that +2 Stealth than without?
Sure.

We can't do any mission requiring stealth because the 'Dex would pussy out from it on the basis that we don't have enough stealth. 'If we had Kagemi...' is the main argument around here when it comes to it.

How many examples do you need? Yuhua Halls (both entry and rescuing Yu), the BDS, the secret harem choice in the updates that are now gone - that is what we missed because of it.
 

Tribute

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Jan 18, 2014
Messages
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I remember Jing pulling off Yao's rescue pretty handily. Though there he was smart enough to not depend entirely on his Stealth skill (for one thing, laxatives were involved). He'd have to get creative, possibly involving web traps and/or unleashing poisonous animals as a distraction.
 

ScubaV

Prophet
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,022
I'm not talking about specific techniques. How many chances have we had to raise our PER? Once, and this is number two. How many chances have we had to raise our stealth skill? I'm not going back to check, but I'd guess around 4-6 times. 3B certainly seems to be on a secure bandwagon to victory though, so I guess you're safe.
How many chances? Let's see. We picked it up wih Qingggong technique in the Ashina tribe.

We raised it once with Zhang Jue. It pushed it up to 3. That's it, that's where we are now. The next chance to improve it was with the help of Yoriwaka, where we chose Kagemi instead. This update is the only place we were offered to raise it since then.

So 3, plus two choices in this update is 5 total chances to raise stealth. Compared to two for perception, both of which are from the same guy. And we (should) well know the lesson of "we can always come back and do it later".

As for qingong, treave strongly implied that every major sect is going to have it's own special qingong. They won't all have this particular combination of boosts, but the generic boost is going to be available elsewhere. Besides, you're always fussing about Jing killing people, don't you want a non-lethal offensive ability?
 

Kipeci

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Vicksburg
If we are going to kidnap the Emperor, it seems like tying him up with the silk in case he becomes less comatose might be a good idea.
 

Tribute

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Well, after this discussion I think I've settled on a choice for the third skill, which would make my vote CBA (Operation Immortal, Spider-Silk, Reikan upgrade). We've already had somebody catch us in our blind spot once, and we can't afford to miss things during this mission. Things could go very bad very quickly if we don't think fast enough.

Operation Immortal may be less likely to succeed than assisting with the assassination, but the rewards for success are greater, and the punishment for failure can't be any worse, and might even be lesser (though it'd quite probably be death vs death).

The AGI boost is nice, but we should be able to get it elsewhere (everybody teaches some form of qinggong, and they should all boost AGI), while the spider-silk technique gives us more options both here and now and during the tournament (and we may very well need all the tools we can use).
 

treave

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Codex 2012
ERYFKRAD - CCx
asxetos - CCB
Nevill - CCB
Mystiknight - BBA
Anabanana - BBA
Azira - BAA
Smashing Axe - CBB
Lambchop19 - CCB
Zero Credibility - CCB
Elfberserker - BBA
Kipeci - B A>B A
XenomorphII - CCB
ScubaV - CBA
Jester - B B>C A
TOME - BBB>ABB / if C, xCB
Fangshi - CBB
Rex Feral - BCB
Esquilax - CCB
SirArvedeth - CAB
Tribute - CBA
Absinthe - BCA
Kayerts - BBB
Tigranes - BCA
Grimgravy - BBA
LWC1996 - C A>B B
Bloodshifter - BCB
Baltika9 - CBB

***

Current tally:

Mission
A - 0
B - 11
C - 16

---

Wudu
A - 4
B - 12
C - 11

---

Yoriwaka
A - 10
B - 16

***

For the purpose of the "2 points in Stealth vs 1 point in PER" arguments, could we get an explanation of the feats we'll be able to pull off with that +1 PER boost vs without, and the same for with that +2 Stealth than without? It's hard to tell just by the numbers what the difference between 6 PER and 7 PER would actually end up being in terms of capability, for instance.

You were using 6 PER for the most part of the LP, 8 with Reikan after the pirate sidequest. There's some differences explained in how he perceives things before and after, so 7 would be somewhere in between. Perception is not only sight, but all your other senses too.

As for stealth, the choices here can land you with 5, 6, 7 or 8 stealth, so that's rather hard to differentiate beyond 7 would make you extremely good at it, more than enough for regular palace work, and 8 pretty much guarantees only a master has a chance of catching you.

As for traps in the palace... probably not as filled with it as you think. It's a place to live/govern in, and having to press the secret code and do three precise skips to prevent yourself from being dropped into a spike-laden pit every time you need to get requisition Form 2B is probably not the best way to cultivate a functioning bureaucracy. Unfortunately the Emperor's obsession was in alchemy, not in turning his palace into Deathtrap Dungeon. His lab, though...
 
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Absinthe

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Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Voting BCA. Agility will be quite useful for the upcoming fight against Yunzi and we can do with more stealth, plus another rank of Reikan can give Jing some much-needed Perception now that he has one eye (and it will help him maintain his cool plus become able to use Reikan in a fight, which is really quite important). I think high stealth needs high perception to stay effective.

Actually, confirmation would be good here. Treave, if we upgrade Reikan, will Jing be able to start using it in a fight?

For option 1, I do not recommend C because Jing lost an eye so the choices are either weak stealth or weak perception (and we still have zero traps) which means one way or another we're going to fuck it up and get caught.
 
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Kayerts

Arcane
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Jan 28, 2011
Messages
883
1C seems kinda dumb, in that we don't have an especially great fallback plan if the Emperor ever wakes from his coma, and are in fact pretty fucked if he does. So we're banking on the notion that he's going to remain effectively dead until he is actually dead, and if we are confident that will happen, the moral harm of just killing him is nil.

A less yolocious vote of 1B would free up our other votes for learning the unique Wudu techniques, which seem more generally useful unless we plan to defeat the eight sects' champions by running away from them, possibly while screaming in terror. 2A will be useful generally in having animal scouts and might have applications with regard to unlocking our godlike neiggong. 2B sounds like a completely baller complement to Jing's brutal fighting style.

In view of the current tally, I'll vote BBB.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
Actually, treave, if we upgrade Reikan another rank, will Jing be able to start using Reikan in a fight?

He's slowly getting used to having it active in a fight ever since losing that eye in order to compensate - mainly through hearing - so it wouldn't be a problem whether or not you get that upgrade here. It still depends on the type of fight - if he is in control it will be fine, but let's say someone close to him, like Cao'er, gets killed and you're after the murderer in a blind rage... you won't be able to use it then.

Hm, looking at the discussion thus far, were you guys assuming that Operation Immortal had to be a solo gig?
 

Grimgravy

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
Man, the ascending emperor is cool. Sadly, many of you don't seem to realize it's also colossally stupid. Jing suggested it and he doesn't acknowledge he can fail. What do we really gain if we succeed? Shun has a clearer conscious and Zhang is amused. Has anyone considered it might amuse Zhang to taunt all of China with a not so divine former emperor? It's not worth the risk. This might not be as bad as sphere diplomacy, but it's up there. Doing what the prince, who put a hell of lot more thought into this than Jing, wants is better. B is the best choice.

I'd love to have a pet poison toad, but some added combat capabilities are what I think we need. The more unique Wudu technique shouldn't be passed up. B again.

And since I'm wholly against going full, I'm I can't fail, retard with immortal emperor, added perception will help us more than stealth in the Fire cult and Zhang's challenges. B A

edit: seems I, too, need to upgrade perception. I blame rage at the many silly emperor votes.

So BBA
 
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ScubaV

Prophet
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,022
Man, the ascending emperor is cool. Sadly, many of you don't seem to realize it's also colossally stupid. Jing suggested it and he doesn't acknowledge he can fail. What do we really gain if we succeed? Shun has a clearer conscious and Zhang is amused. Has anyone considered it might amuse Zhang to taunt all of China with a not so divine former emperor? It's not worth the risk. This might not be as bad as sphere diplomacy, but it's up there. Doing what the prince, who put a hell of lot more thought into this than Jing, wants is better. B is the best choice.

I'd love to have a pet poison toad, but some added combat capabilities are what I think we need. The more unique Wudu technique shouldn't be passed up. B again.

And since I'm wholly against going full, I'm I can't fail, retard with immortal emperor, added perception will help us more than stealth in the Fire cult and Zhang's challenges. B

So BBB

If you want perception, you should be voting BBA, not BBB. Maybe you should take lessons from Yorikawa. :D
 

Kipeci

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May 22, 2012
Messages
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Location
Vicksburg
I'll flop to B A>B A, though I doubt we'll be able to salvage the cause of perception. I just don't see why we need anywhere near this much stealth, we're already at the point where it's tied with our speech skill while using the Kuanglang Step. I've just never thought of sneaking around as being too important of a part of Jing's skillset and it's already pretty good.
 

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