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Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
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They are under stuff you will never have an inclination to seriously learn until you are fifty. Not that kind of character.
Then what areas of scholarly knowledge is Jing interested in? Tactics and "The Art Of War?" Natural sciences? Law? History?
 

Baltika9

Arcane
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What would fall under governance? Taxation and mathematics? Management of resources? Trade?
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
Relocation

I think that we should really reconsider sending the Minamoto Clan to Uncle Zhang's Summer Camp:

It must have been taught to you in your studies. In fact, you recall hearing something like this, now that Yu has jogged your memory, but the details do not come to you. “If that is the case, the prefect should be dealing with it, or should have submitted a report to the Court for action. Why is he not here, with a Tang fleet to subjugate a single band of pirates? We do have a navy and it has not seen any action in… what, a century?”
...
“The government will not aid us in this venture. The prefect has sent a letter detailing his approval of our actions and his gratitude, but there will be no money or ships forthcoming.”
...
“The prefect of Yangzhou, at least, knows of us, and he exacts tribute in return for the navy turning a blind eye to our deeds. Furthermore, your eunuchs and ministers did not want to be seen as interfering with the internal affairs of other nations. It was not widely announced, and this island was of no value to anyone. A perfect place to dump some political exiles and forget about them. But we had to take what we could get. We were in no position to negotiate.”

Okay, so we've got a situation in which the Court utilized a third party to deal with a situation that they couldn't involve themselves in for fear of diplomatic incident (and because they're ineffectual and stretched thin). The Court isn't going to pull out a navy that they haven't used in a century to attack a group of around 200 foreigners - it's a stupid move, why would they do that? Furthermore, we were the ones that fought the pugilist force, not the Minamoto Clan, which gives the government even less incentive to involve themselves in the situation. Our actions have effectively taken the heat off the Minamoto Clan and put it all on us, which means that it's much safer for them to stay on this island than it is for them to relocate.

Also, keep in mind that even if you ignore Zhang's general insanity and unpredictability, relocation will still take weeks, which is unnecessary because they've already started getting comfortable here. Really, given our actions during this incident, having the Minamoto stay is pretty much the best bet for Shun to recruit them. I would much rather our bro not risk an encounter with the Southern Maniac; remember, just because Zhang allows the Minamoto Clan to stay on Yinhu, it doesn't mean that he allows any other trespassers, even if they happen to be the Crown Prince on an incognito inspection.

Technique & Skill Choice

After having thought about it further, we really do need to go for the stealth technique. We need to remember that (1) we are very vulnerable right now, and (2) we are universally hated by anybody remotely respectable. Some wannabe do-gooder could gain a lot of fame by trying to take us out, and he'd have a pretty good shot at it considering our physical stats and our powerful neigong are not at our disposal for now.

The perception technique that Zatoichibro has is probably significantly better for us in the long-run, but we need to remember that we are completely on our own in most of the challenges we face since we are not part of any sect; the only thing that we can truly rely on are our own skills. What this means is that we need things to work now, rather than at some unclear point in the future. Now, I'm sure that the Reikan technique, like all stat-boosting techniques, is very rare, but I'm really concerned with how to avoid trouble now that we are a wounded outlaw with an infamous reputation.
 

Kashmir Slippers

Magister
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I don't think we abandon this extremely rare opportunity to get a skill that could cover one of our stat weaknesses. The stealth boost only applies when we use our Kuanglang Step anyway, which already has a bonus to stealth. We have a skill of 3 right now, and we can have a skill of 5 when we use the Qinggong. After the boost we will have 7. I frankly think that it is a huge waste. I feel that a skill of 5 is more than enough to evade any would-be assailants that we might find. Besides, our enemies are the orthodox sects. It is not like they would try to sneak on us because it is not their way. We also don't try to sneak around all that much as it is, so I think that the benefits of the boost would be situational at best.

The perception skill, on the other hand, seems invaluable to me. We can use it pretty much anywhere. It could help us prepare for fights if we were to watch our opponent like we did during the tournament. It could allow us to read into a lot of things or people and get a greater understanding of what is going on around us. It could protect us from hidden assailants or people who are trying to hide something. It also could help us see flaws in fighting styles and adapt. Also, treave mentioned that it requires meditation to work best, and I think that Jing would benefit a lot from regular meditation, so it could possibly make us a little more balanced and zen.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
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Messages
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Okay, so we've got a situation in which the Court utilized a third party to deal with a situation that they couldn't involve themselves in for fear of diplomatic incident (and because they're ineffectual and stretched thin). The Court isn't going to pull out a navy that they haven't used in a century to attack a group of around 200 foreigners - it's a stupid move, why would they do that? Furthermore, we were the ones that fought the pugilist force, not the Minamoto Clan, which gives the government even less incentive to involve themselves in the situation. Our actions have effectively taken the heat off the Minamoto Clan and put it all on us, which means that it's much safer for them to stay on this island than it is for them to relocate.
Alright, but how will they eat on this island, without going back to piracy? That's the crux of the problem here, the government may indeed decide to get off their asses and do something about the pirates that have been raiding them for three years now, now that the pugilists have failed. Or that said pugilists can't just regroup and come back for round two now that Jing is absent? THey gave no promise to never come back again, Master Zhou is too much of a stuck up douche for that:
The younger Zhou seems to be considering his proposal, but Zhou Dingqiu immediately shakes his head. “No. I thank you for your offer, pirate, but firstly, I do not trust you, and secondly, it would shame me even more to receive aid from an enemy. We will take care of our own. We do not need the Wo to spare us any charity.” Casting a withering glance at you, he turns and begins ordering the remaining fighters to start helping the fallen pugilists.
Yeah, Yoshimitsu seems like a pretty good strategist and Zatoichi can pull off an assassination. But still, two hundred political exiles without any friends can't put up a decent fight against the Imperial Navy or a better planned attack from a bigger force of the pugilists.
Who says Shun will be able to do something about them before it happens?

Zhang's Island, while extremely risky for everyone involved, offers them a complete safe haven in case he does show lenience (who knows, he may even be sufficiently amused) and, most importantly, farmable soil to sustain themselves. Effectively, B3 allows the to get off the grid and lay low until Shun finds them. He's not a retard, and I see no reason why we can't warn him of our Master's, ah, bi-polarity and let him prepare accordingly. If he can get the balls to stand up to Zhang Jue himself on his turf, he's definitely made to rule.
The perception technique that Zatoichibro has is probably significantly better for us in the long-run, but we need to remember that we are completely on our own in most of the challenges we face since we are not part of any sect; the only thing that we can truly rely on are our own skills. What this means is that we need things to work now, rather than at some unclear point in the future. Now, I'm sure that the Reikan technique, like all stat-boosting techniques, is very rare, but I'm really concerned with how to avoid trouble now that we are a wounded outlaw with an infamous reputation.
Yeah, I definitely see your point here, planning long-term is good, but not if we die to some meaty mercs hired by the State two weeks after getting off this island. Still, that PER boost combined with a calmer, more strategic mindset and knowledge of tactics and strategy is just so damn delicious.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I am with Kashimir Slippers on this one.

Not to mention that we'll get to train Stealth in the future, but techniques that raise stats are one-of-a-kind:
treave said:
Certain super-rare techniques may even boost your stats. You can think of these as perks, I suppose, but you don't get to pick from them in a level-up screen. You'll have to gain them throughout the course of the adventure.
You don't just pass up such a chance. Who knows when you stumble upon another one.

And about being hated by everyone, that's just not true. More than half of the sects are still neutral towards us.

Our reputation of the man who had single-handedly fended off the invasion force of 100+ fighters would keep random do-gooders at bay better than stealth would, anyway.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
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Messages
9,611
And about being hated by everyone, that's just not true. More than half of the sects are still neutral towards us.
The point here is, if we find ourselvef backed into a corner it's just "Me, Myself and I." And with 5 STR/5 AGI and a battered body, what are we going to do?
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
Also, perception helps us to make counters, see relevant information before blundering into traps, as well as help us to actually use our knowledge about pressure points in combat and the like. We're already fairly decent at sneaking against people who aren't amazing ninjas, lets pad our perception.

Edit: I'm not sure how the sneaking will help us get away from people who've challenged us to a fight or whatever. We wouldn't be good enough to vanish in front of their faces if they're directly paying attention to us. If we're forced into a confrontation, sneaking has already failed.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Our PER is a pretty respectable 6, though. It's not the far future when we learn how to use it in battle we're talking about here, it's the near future where Jing is all battered and broken and won't be able to put up a fight against a serious and prepared opponent (after this demonstration, those will be pretty much the only types to come after us).
 

Anabanana

Augur
Joined
Jul 31, 2012
Messages
1,061
A. You ask them to stay on the island but refrain from any further piracy from the time being. They should have stockpiled enough supplies to last for a brief while – you will arrange for aid when you return to the mainland. Hopefully the pugilists will not have sufficient strength to retaliate… and you hope that the Court doesn’t take notice and respond by bringing in the navy.

Yeah, on second thoughts it might not be a good idea to let the crown prince, whom we're supposed to be protecting, to go anywhere near the Southern Maniac, but the problem with the island is that their food is not going to last them that long. We have no idea how long it'll take to get in contact with Shun, or when he'll be able to make his move when he finds out, but I bet it won't be before their supplies run out. In which case they'll be forced to turn back to piracy.

In any case, Shun will be recruiting them incognito, and if Zhang lets them stay then I don't see why he would interfere with who the pirates associate with.

Our Agi stat is actually at 5 right now because of our injuries, so I assume that means we can't actually use the sneak boost to its full potential until after we recover?
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Baltika9 said:
The point here is, if we find ourselvef backed into a corner it's just "Me, Myself and I." And with 5 STR/5 AGI and a battered body, what are we going to do?
Why, go into steath mode in plain sight and crawl out of there with AGI 5, of course.

If we are cornered, stealth will not help us much. On the other hand, we have pretty good capabilities of not getting cornered. We are still a very dangerous man to be dealing with, I think we can bluff our way out of such an encounter. And we still can put up a fight - even though we won't be winning any challenges any time soon.

That is, if we can't avoid such confrontations in the first place by spotting trouble before they get to us, where PER would come in handy.
 

Kashmir Slippers

Magister
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And about being hated by everyone, that's just not true. More than half of the sects are still neutral towards us.
The point here is, if we find ourselvef backed into a corner it's just "Me, Myself and I." And with 5 STR/5 AGI and a battered body, what are we going to do?

...Don't get backed into a corner? I agree the need to protect ourselves, but if we get ourselves into a situation such as you and Esquilax are describing, I don't know how a stealth skill is going to help us escape. If we are literally backed into a corner, for instance, or the enemy has its eyes on us, it isn't like we can just toggle a stealth skill and disappear from his vision.

The main thing that we should do to try to keep ourselves safe it to try to avoid such situations. It is unrealistic to think that we will spend the next year or however long it takes us to recover stealthing around everywhere because we are afraid that we might find ourselves in an unsafe situation. We should take this time that we have to avoid dangerous situations before they come to a head. Lying low and practicing our non-combat skills like in the last part of the vote seems like an excellent way to get better, and it is not like we are going to be completely alone either. treave has hinted that we might join up with Cao'er, and Scholar-bro is still with us. We do have some friends, if only few. Jing could use to learn that often discretion is the better part of valor.
 

Kipeci

Arcane
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May 22, 2012
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Vicksburg
Don't you remember when we were asking earlier if 6 perception was enough to get those cool things to happen and treave basically said that that stuff doesn't start getting unlocked until around perception 8?

And at your confrontation scene, we've already lost. We're going to vanish in front of the face of people who are focused on beating us down? That's not something we can do, even with that skill boost. We can't dash off into a crowd or whatever to lose them, either, considering our low agility. The best idea is to pay very close attention to our surroundings so that we can use our already decent sneak ability to get leave before they've homed in on us.

If we are forced into a fight, though, it's better to take the perception bonus that will let us fight a bit smarter rather than the sneaking bonus, for reasons that should be fairly clear.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
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Messages
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Here's the thing, though:
A. Reikan. (霊勘, Spiritual Instinct) A technique that involves the use of qi in such a way that it augments the five senses of the practitioner. It is analogous to multiple similar techniques known by martial arts practitioners in the Central Plains. It requires a calm inner state to be used effectively, with the greatest effects being seen during meditation. (+2 Perception)
This seems like an "activated ability," excuse the vulgarity, not a passive one. Are we going to have it on for every single second of every single day? Does Jing even have the focus and discipline required to do that? It requires a calm inner state of being and Jing isn't quite there yet. Plus, 8 PER isn't omniscience and/or precognition. We can't spot every single thing coming at us.
it isn't like we can just toggle a stealth skill and disappear from his vision.
Seems to me like we can, given room to maneuver:
B. Kagemi. (影身, Shadow Body). A method of silent moving that melds well with your Kuanglang Step – Kuanglang Step will increase to a higher level, allowing you to be undetectable to all but an elite few. (Additional +2 Stealth to Kuanglang Step).
The Shadow Wolf Step will give a bonus to your sneak skill. The boost is higher in the wild, lesser in man-made places. At higher levels of the technique you will also get an agility stat boost while using the technique. If we're talking about combat, a high level Shadow Wolf Step will allow you to just about vanish from plain sight in the forest. However, being a specific technique and not a general skill, it is possible for the opponent to observe the movements, predict its moves, and finally develop a counter for it.
7 Sneak will definitely help in hiding more than 5 stealth, note the "invisible to all but an elite few" bit. That, and treave did confirm that it allows us to break the skill cap, giving us a potential of 7 while injured and an otherworldly 11 when recovered.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
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Messages
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Because one of the arguments in favor of Reikan is that "it will allow us to spot trouble before it spots us," which in effect requires Jing to be using it and meditating 24/7, in order to have 8 PER all the time.

Stealth, on the other hand, just lets us use our innate cunning to get some room to maneuver and get the hell outta there through sneakery. Yeah, 7 is "almost-master" level, even if it's toggleable.
 

Nevill

Arcane
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Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Baltika9 said:
Are we going to have it on for every single second of every single day?
We don't need to. But whenever we are in a place that could be trouble, it would be a good idea to keep our eyes peeled.

Baltika9 said:
Does Jing even have the focus and discipline required to do that?
You'd be surprised as to what Jing can do when he puts effort into it.

Baltika9 said:
It requires a calm inner state of being and Jing isn't quite there yet.
We aren't psychopaths, we can be calm and reasonable. We just don't have many incentives to be that way. And now we would.

Baltika9 said:
Stealth, on the other hand, just lets us use our innate cunning to get some room to maneuver and get the hell outta there through sneakery.
I don't think vanishing in plain sight is of much use without superior speed to relocate quickly. Not exactly what you would want to do with 5 AGI.
 

Kipeci

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On page 244, Esquilax specifically asked treave if taking on the sneak skill would be enough to vanish right in front of enemies or melt into shadows. This was treave's response:

You could hide in plain sight depending on the environment and use of trickery as distraction.

That doesn't seem to imply becoming invisible to an opponent right in front of us and after our blood.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
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Messages
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We don't need to. But whenever we are in a place that could be trouble, it would be a good idea to keep our eyes peeled.
:lol: That's the thing about it, if someone competent is out to get us, they will put forth every effort to make sure we don't know of them approaching and we can't react to them approaching. Especially after that last stunt of ours, Esquilax is one hundred percent right in that regard. We have a huge (dis)repute boost, but not the capability to do anything about it for the time being.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
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Jan 6, 2012
Messages
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The navy won't come. The 100 man fight ensured there's no official complaint against the pirates (just us) and the prefect is already paid up to ensure the navy doesn't get called in. That's why the pugilists had to step in in the first place. The pugilists don't have much reason to retaliate against the pirates either, because they did them no harm. On the other hand, if we send the clan to Zhang Jue then all hell can break loose. The WIB were already trying to draw Zhang Jue into a bloodbath, and this has a lot of paths to cause exactly that. Especially when Shun gets caught in this.
 

Baltika9

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The 100 man fight ensured there's no official complaint against the pirates (just us)
Except piracy, you mean, the thing that started this whole debacle in the first place?
 

Kipeci

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... except that the WiB were trying to have him cause another bloodbath of orthodox pugilists, not foreign devil pirates. Him slaughtering the former would piss off the orthodox world, him slaughtering the latter wouldn't really piss off much of anyone except for the people who voted to negotiate and nonsense.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
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Messages
4,062
The 100 man fight ensured there's no official complaint against the pirates (just us)
Except piracy, you mean, the thing that started this whole debacle in the first place?
The navy wasn't called in then. There is no additional incentive for them to be called in now. To top it off, the prefect is getting paid to not send the navy after them.
 

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