KickStarter Lords of Xulima

[thesheeep]

Cheat = Making the game easier in an artificial way without playing it
Exploit = Making the game easier by playing it in a certain way not intended (but not prohibited) by the developers

Not that hard, is it.

It is, at most, a semantic difference in many cases. Not in this one as Pope clearly says, but are you playing the game if you're infinity-grinding monsters with bugged respawns in KotOR2?

I see no semantic difference at all. Playing the game to gain some advantage vs. not playing the game to gain some advantage.
Could not be more clear, or could it?

To your example: Of course you are playing the game.
Whatever the player is actively investing his time in within the game is playing. Not in a way that would be fun for you or me, I guess, but not calling it playing because of that would be wrong. There is no way to "be active" within a game world that can not be considered playing (and no, entering cheats is not "being active", it is like using the options menu).

Of course, the result may be equal in both cases: Having an easier time playing the game. But that does not mean exploiting and cheating are the same thing.

Also, yes, the herb thing may not be an exploit, that is true.

 

[Grunker]

but not calling it playing because of that would be wrong.

I don't call "stand in the same place spam-clicking a key for 3 hours until you are max level" playing. You might. However you might look at it, that's just a semantic debate concerning the meaning of the word 'playing'.

The substance remains that you are doing something very different from everyone else.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

So i picked it up again, continued where i left off after a break. The mages are getting even better with the aoe, and since i got a lot of spare points, i managed to level up their passives. almost lvl 30 now, clearing the 3rd castle. Gaulen still a massive shitter in combat, since i still got to lvl his OTHER passives first

Wouldn't hurt to put like 5 points to Venom Strike, and then Gaulen becomes great in combat. The rogue's the massive shitter in combat except when he's throwing stars, (which still misses occassionally) but they're not unlimited.

Get quick strike on rogue for turn order manipulation. If the rogue is right before a stunner on the turn order, you quick strike, then stun, then the rogue's next turn comes fast enough that he can throw a star while the stun's still active.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Nice one!

Also, for everyone who are playing with casters - remove their mainhand weapons and keep the slot empty (unless you get lucky and find a dagger/mace with combat speed/initiative). That way pressing space will automatically make your char defend, instead of whacking the mob for UBER 1 dmg.

 

[Norfleet]

I have no idea why, since I've never said anything like that, but I am of the belief that using exploits to make games significantly easier so that they pose no challenge is the same things as cheats. I don't look down on it or anything, you can do whatever you want with your game, I just don't get why people think exploits and cheats are different (and thus don't get people who enjoy doing one but think it cheap to do the other).

Because when you cheat, you're violating the rules of the system. When you exploit, you're still playing within the rules of the system. It's the difference between a guy who takes advantage of every rule in the book to make himself OP, but scrupulously adheres to the rules as written, and the guy who simply ignores the rules and does whatever the hell he pleases (and hopes the DM doesn't notice). Exploiting is an art, one that is fundamentally what playing games is about: Achieving the best outcome through the use of the rules of the system. Cheating is just moving your pieces illegally while the opponent isn't looking. Exploiting is the highest form of gaming: Anything else is just playing. Exploiting is about GAMING the game. Isn't that what the entire point of a game is?

 

[Grunker]

exploiting is the highest form of gaming

Keep teeling yourself that

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

On a side note, anyone starting the game - if you are starved for points, there is really no need to lvl lockpicking/trap disarm past lets say 6-7, you might need a few reloads and a bit more lockpicks but it will get the job done.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

The discussion on exploits reminds me a bit of when I first played BG2 and had great fun on the Twisted Rune battle. Every time I thought I was getting on top a new demon would be summoned or a meteor swarm would arrive. And their last mage left alive then did a desperate suicide stunt with a sunburst or whatever it was called. I had to use just about everything I had to eventually barely make it through without a TPK.

A week or two later I was checking out a forum on the game and I saw a thread about someone's 'amazing tactics' for that battle. I checked it out and it consisted of him repeatedly loading the game to determine the exact positions of every enemy spawn in advance. Then he would prepare by spamming out loads of traps exactly where they would arrive and, after much tedious work he got to win the battle with a tiny bit of mopping up after the traps decimated the enemies. The justification for the exploits was that "saving and traps are allowed by the devs so why can't I exploit them".

Of course, if the devs don't allow you to save anywhere the tradeoff is people having to replay large sections of the game when they die, which can lead to ragequits, so it's understandable why most games don't go down that route. It's obviously up to everyone how they play their game, I don't see the fun in making challenging battles trivial but each to their own. I wouldn't, however, describe this sort of stuff as the "highest form of gaming".

 

[V_K]

Finished it and I must agree with the general consensus - while the first half was a blast, roughly after the third temple the game started growing more and more stale with each step. I think it'd be much better if it ended right before the titans, that last chunk of the game I could really do without (well, maybe with the exception of the Kersket temple, loved that one). Too much HP bloat and the level design starts repeating itself (four dungeons relying on teleport puzzles is a bit too much).
Still had more fun with it than with DOS.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Anyone planning a 2nd playthrough or something - try it out with 4 mages and a cleric. Its lotsa fun

 

[PocketMine]

I restarted my party.

So it begins....

What went wrong with your last party?

My identical party is level 24 trying to solve hall of heroes puzzle.

 

[Jaesun]

I restarted my party.

So it begins....

What went wrong with your last party?

Party is fine, though I wasted some VERY PRECIOUS skill points on stuff I really didn't need. Also I wanted to explore better in the beginning, and I am glad I did. I completely missed this one area early-ish on because I had thought it might be a very dangerous area (and it wasn't).

About to storm the 1st princes castle at level 10. <3

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Jaesun, clear the castle but do NOT kill the prince (both 1st and 2nd) until you clear all of this guards in the zones (you know, those bigass groups of 10, 2 soldiers, 3 weapon masters, 5 archers) for great xp and moneyz and GREAT REJOICING

The fights are hard, but bring nice rewards!

 

[Jaesun]

Jaesun, clear the castle but do NOT kill the prince (both 1st and 2nd) until you clear all of this guards in the zones (you know, those bigass groups of 10, 2 soldiers, 3 weapon masters, 5 archers) for great xp and moneyz and GREAT REJOICING

The fights are hard, but bring nice rewards!

Yep, that is exactly what I am doing now (I cleared all the soldier encounters). Fuck that was..... challenging (at the time). I didn't do that last time, and that is a LOT of XP and gold I missed!

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Yeah! Also do it for the 2nd prince, his (optional) soldier retinue is much harder, but OH SO MUCH MORE satisfying

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah! Also do it for the 2nd prince, his (optional) soldier retinue is much harder, but OH SO MUCH MORE satisfying

 

[Norfleet]

A week or two later I was checking out a forum on the game and I saw a thread about someone's 'amazing tactics' for that battle. I checked it out and it consisted of him repeatedly loading the game to determine the exact positions of every enemy spawn in advance. Then he would prepare by spamming out loads of traps exactly where they would arrive and, after much tedious work he got to win the battle with a tiny bit of mopping up after the traps decimated the enemies. The justification for the exploits was that "saving and traps are allowed by the devs so why can't I exploit them".

Bah, that's not exploiting, that's just using metagame knowledge of a specific setpiece battle. A real exploit is generalizable and allows you to cheese your way through any battle, including procedurally generated random ones. Spawn-camping is hardly a novel achievement, although it can be quite amusing. The good stuff is things like abusing the AI by building a wall out of junk you carry in your inventory, causing the AI to become confused and unable to attack you. The BEST stuff is when you can do it to another player!

The substance remains that you are doing something very different from everyone else.

Of course you are. If you do what everyone else does, you get the same results as everyone else, because there's nothing special about you that makes your results given the same input better than theirs. Conformity is defeat. In a game, your numbers are just like their numbers, so you can't just throw weight of numbers at someone like you can in real life. You have to do something the game doesn't expect you to do, to outplay that player, and that means exploiting an angle of the rules and mechanics that wasn't planned for. This applies to real life, too.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Oh ye, i got really, bored and quit the game when the HP bloat reached a new level of stupid.

AS someone already wrote, first 1/3 of the game was grand, the 2nd was ok, last 1/3 is really a slog.

 

[cw8]

Oh ye, i got really, bored and quit the game when the HP bloat reached a new level of stupid.

AS someone already wrote, first 1/3 of the game was grand, the 2nd was ok, last 1/3 is really a slog.

Level 38, then I went back to play CK2 again. Gonna try finishing it this weekend.

 

[Norfleet]

Oh ye, i got really, bored and quit the game when the HP bloat reached a new level of stupid.

AS someone already wrote, first 1/3 of the game was grand, the 2nd was ok, last 1/3 is really a slog.

This describes most games, really. The first third of the game is the part of the game most played and tested, by the end, they're running out of ideas, the amount of things the player could have done has diverged rapidly, and so it's hard to balance the game between shitty players and good players, and besides, the player has gotten used to the game and is starting to see the cracks in the paint. It's tricky trying to make a game that ends neither too soon, just when the player is starting to enjoy it, nor too late, when the player is going "When does this end?".

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

IMO ~40 hours is a sweet spot. Short enough to consider another play-through if I really enjoyed the first & there is replay value; long enough to tell just about any story if it is concise and lacking in filler.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

So true, on both accounts!

 

[Norfleet]

I don't think it's just a matter of hours, but also a matter of pacing and content. Plenty of 40 hour games leave you unsatisfied when they end just as you've gotten to where you want to be in the game...others start to drag well before that point.

 

[thesheeep]

My reaction when walking somewhere, suddenly a group of the most annoying enemies ever attacks:

Spoiler

 

[Luzur]

Is there a goddamn trainer or cheats for this game out yet? im getting kinda annoyed being lvl 3, i find barely any gold at all (and that damn town guard takes 100 every damn time) and getting beaten by everything, even mushrooms (those big ones are impossible, even a single one in a random encounter just simply killed my fully healed party, spamming that damn breath attack...) and on top of that i get a unavoidable hard ass battle out of nowhgere against a Cursed Wolf, which i defeated just by pure luck with a single char left, GRRRRRRRRR

im gonna find a way to cheat or im gonna install Skyrim with mods instead.