1eyedking Long-winded dialogues suck

[Azarkon]

The first piece is an excellent example of useless writing that doesn't belong in a game, unless the game is entirely made up of text.

You take a purse of crowns and follow Kruger through an unwinding of darker and darker streets. Soon enough, almost nothing can be seen. Wet cobblestones, licked white by strobes of moonlight, lazily guide you into what depths the city hides from those who prefer the day. Suddenly, a torch flares up and a man's face, afloat and disembodied in the dark, speaks out to you.

Replace with graphics.

"That degg here for da'fights?"

Kruger nods. "Aye, we're here for the fights."

The stranger tilts the torch forward. "Ain't asking if you was, was asking if da'degg was. Is he here to fight'r'not?"

You nod this time. "It's been brought to fight, yes."

The stranger smiles. "Alright then. Right this way, gen-teel-men. Watch yer step. All manner of piss goes downhill."

In an instant, the torch is gone. You will have to follow the man's cackling laughter.

Replace with dialogue, and remove the repetition, not because we're Hemingway, but because it's just stupid.

 

[BlackGoat]

What stands out to me the most with that first dogfight example is that you're being told a story instead of experiencing one. There's a layer of remove that makes you feel like less of an actual participant. It's why POE was so annoying at times. All the flowery additions to the text just bring you out of the game world. It gives the sense that there's a third party between me and the game describing the game for me. I would never look at wet cobblestones and think "Ah, they're being licked white by strobes of moonlight." I'd just look and think "Wet cobblestones. And the moon is out." Or simply "It had recently rained."

The second example, tho perhaps too brief, gets right to the point and describes what you're doing and what's happening and not how you feel about those things. How you feel is left up to you, and it's the game's job to cause or inspire that, not describe it.

Planescape Torment doesn't seem to have this problem, tho it's been awhile since I've played it so I could be wrong. A quick look at the Ravel dialogue: "Her ragged talons trace their way across your skin and in their wake you feel the same strange tingling sensation you felt when Ravel first looked at you. Her eyes dim somewhat, and her talons slide gently along the contours of your face, lingering on your scars."

Verbose, but no extranenous flower. The writing simply describes what is happening.

If this were POE, her ragged talons would trace their way across your skin "like a mad cartographer inscribing a map of insanity" or something. And when you feel a strange tingling sensation it'd be a sensation "like a thousand spiders constructing a web of confusion." At least that's how I remember it.

Overall, I prefer the old Ultima way. Look north. Thou dost see a well.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

I've recently come to realise one thing. I really fucking hate the walls of texts that have re-emerged in the latest slew of low-budget/kickstarter RPGs that can't afford or don't want to have voice acting. Say what you want about all the popamole AAA voiced stuff, but at least everything you hear or read in those is to the point and ends fast enough to not offend you that much. Meanwhile, when it comes to the non-AAA gaemz, it seems to me like the people making them somehow all come to the conclusion that having each dialogue node span over 1k words is somehow a feature of good writing, without taking into consideration that it's the quality of said writing that counts. A dialogue that sucks does not suck less if it becomes five times longer. It only sucks five times as much.

And really, just about every single recent non-AAA ahpeegee is guilty of this in my mind, and the texts in these games almost universally suck, ESPECIALLY when it comes to inconsequential NPCs because those are the most often used for stupid "lore" dumps that bore you to death with unnecessary exposition, talking about shit you'll never see yourself and just don't care about in the slightest.

It sucked in Wasteland 2. It sucked in PoE. It sucked in D:OS. It sucked in SR:HK. It now also sucks in AoD. And it also sucked in some other terrible games that I couldn't stomach playing for too long like Lords of Xulima (now THAT one was particularly insulting when it came to writung).

For each of those games, the formula is just about the same for me: at first, I try to go through every dialogue from start to finish, but as the game goes on, I start subconsciously skipping parts of it until I finally catch myself doing that. And then I just proceed with everything else having read the first and last sentence of a tl;dr dump, pressing 1 blindly without even looking at what the dialogue option says and not missing anything of value or importance. Just about everything important is contained there in those two sentences and everything else is unnecessary, long-winded, boring filler.

Now, before some smartass faggot tries to come here thinking himself clever, no, redding is not teh hard. Redding shit of really bad quality is teh hard because it makes me wonder why the fuck those word counts are so fucking huge when they could be all cut in half without anything of value being lost. I don't care about your "Rich Lore" (tm)(c)(r) when I've read about your Rich Lore approximately a hundred times before because it's so fucking derivative, or, even better, a hundred other NPCs have already told me everything I need to know about your Rich Lore and you're just regurgitating the same shit over and over with only minor, inconsequential changes. Your game does not have to, and, indeed, should not have to compete with War and Peace when it comes to word count because you are not fucking Tolstoy. You are a nerd writing about people smacking each other with swords in a fantasyland of varying genericness, so please keep to the point and realise that you are not creating literature.

I honestly don't have any idea why this has become so popular again all of a sudden. Probably a result of some bizarre cargo cult of PS:T. When I think about it further, a game like Legend of Grimrock 2, which contains its texts to a bunch of talking stone heads, cryptic letters and scribblings on walls, manages to create a much more compelling narrative, mystery and atmosphere than all the above games put together. Because it's elegant in its brevity and leaves stuff to your imagination, letting you pick up the pieces and connect the dots yourself, instead of dumping GENERIC_TRAVELLER_FROM_ANTIQUE_LAND giving you a lecture about his home village's camelfucking habits.


TL;DR, rpg writers are fucking talentless hacks and the last few years have only served to remind me of this. I honestly wish we could go back to brevity again.

Not only that, it is unrealistic for someone to tell your their whole life story upon meeting you. Concise is the first rule of great writing.

 

[Cadmus]

The first piece is an excellent example of useless writing that doesn't belong in a game, unless the game is entirely made up of text.



Replace with graphics.



Replace with dialogue, and remove the repetition, not because we're Hemingway, but because it's just stupid.

I would argue that it doesn't belong anywhere else, either.

 

[Sensuki]

It's about striking a balance between brevity and flavour. See Dark Sun: Shattered Lands for a game that did it right.

THIS

A better example of writing nudging its way in front of gameplay is whenever there'd be a long series of texts before a boss fight..

To be honest, I actually somewhat enjoy this - if the dialogue is good. I've seen some that are just there because (and really could just be a short dialogue, or no dialogue), and others that are actually good, particularly if you can have an alternate outcome to combat.

 

[Lurker King]

As an OCD player I have a huge issue with just running across RPG town and skipping dialogue, who knows which NPC might be hiding something? I remember when I tried playing PoE the first time and I kept running into those backer characters and didn't know wtf they were supposed to signify. I had this vague idea their plots were somehow all related and I broke my fucking brain on this for a few days before I finally gave up on the game altogether. So why was I so fucking in a hurry to talk to these tards? Probably because I don't want to close my eyes, I don't want to fall asleep, 'Cause I'd miss some quests and I don't want to miss a thing.

I have the same problem. I read EVERY SINGLE THING in PoE. All the backers' stories, all the available lines of dialogue and all the lore. By the end of the game I was completly disheartened. I will never touch that game again, never.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

To be honest, I actually somewhat enjoy this - if the dialogue is good. I've seen some that are just there because (and really could just be a short dialogue, or no dialogue), and others that are actually good, particularly if you can have an alternate outcome to combat.

I think sser meant it clashes with gameplay because if its a boss fight, you're typically going to be dying and reloading a lot. At which point it doesn't matter how good the writing is, you're eventually going to be skipping through it.

edit: I can't forums

 

[Sensuki]

It might if you're bad at combat. The game could also autosave at the end of dialogue to bypass this problem, however.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

It can't autosave if there are choices in the dialogue.

 

[Sensuki]

Sure you could. You just have to separate the auto-save from the standard level-load autosave. You could even have such a save load with the game paused. There's no reason you couldn't do something like that - Personally I don't think it's necessary though.

Skipping through a dialogue again after a load is not difficult, often travel time takes up up more game time.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Sure you could. You just have to separate the auto-save from the standard level-load autosave. You could even have such a save load with the game paused. There's no reason you couldn't do something like that

You could also use nuclear weapons to kill mosquitos, but there's more elegant ways to do it.

Skipping through a dialogue again after a load is not difficult, often travel time takes up up more game time.

Skipping through any dialouge is not difficult. That's not an excuse for having to skip it in the first place.

 

[Sensuki]

I don't see you providing a suggestion though.

 

[sser]

The first piece is an excellent example of useless writing that doesn't belong in a game, unless the game is entirely made up of text.

In this case, it would be an 'event', a brief and largely abstract story in which you make choices.

The question isn't over whether or not you like either option in a subjective sense. I explained that there's huge debates about two literary greats, after all, a debate in which some people think those guys truly suck and can't write for shit. It's a question of viability within the scope and context of the gameplay. Do I want the player to be immersed? Do they care about immersion? If it's a text-only sequence, do I shoot for immersion or stick to the gameplay functionality of making choices? In one example I have two people walking into the undercity where they meet a skeevy guy who talks like he learned his English in the dark. Do they follow him, or are they a little more hesitant? Can I make a question of following him be more questionable while being super concise? If they get to the dog fights and I just say, "Dogs are fighting.", does that illicit a similar response as a description of the horrors of dog fighting? If I describe a man cradling his dead dog, crying over some regret of having brought him to this place, does that give the player pause? Or do I just make it a monetary, objective choice: Dogs are fighting. Do you want to put yours in the ring? How much do you bet on him? What happens if the player experiences this event twice?

Skipping through a dialogue again after a load is not difficult, often travel time takes up up more game time.

I personally don't even want to hit one button to skip a cutscene if I don't have to. Cutscenes/long dialogues before boss battles... c'mon. That is an early game design misstep and has no place in the year 2015, or 2005 for that matter.

It can't autosave if there are choices in the dialogue.

Why not? Seems like a simple solution to me unless there's some technical aspect that I'm not understanding.

 

[RK47]

Hi, my name is ZixZax. Let me tell you about the End of Time.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Why not? Seems like a simple solution to me unless there's some technical aspect that I'm not understanding.

Nothing to do with technical aspects, its just that if one of choices offers avoiding combat, I don't see why you would force an autosave after.

And if you're going to do double-autosave Sensuki suggested, then we're basically looking at redesigning the save system around having too much dialogue before a boss fight, instead of simply fixing the said dialogue in a first place. That'd be mosquitos with ICBMs.

 

[Cadmus]

Nothing to do with technical aspects, its just that if one of choices offers avoiding combat, I don't see why you would force an autosave after.

And if you're going to do double-autosave Sensuki suggested, then we're basically looking at redesigning the save system around having too much dialogue before a boss fight, instead of simply fixing the said dialogue in a first place. That'd be mosquitos with ICBMs.

You make 10 auto save slots like should be the standard and save at the most convenient place for the player - that is just when the fight starts. The player is responsible for taking care of his choices with normal/quick saves of which there are also multiple slots.

 

[Sensuki]

Nothing to do with technical aspects, its just that if one of choices offers avoiding combat, I don't see why you would force an autosave after.

IF combat_option_selected = true THEN
combat_autosave()

Not like you have to autosave after every choice , you can just code it so that the game only autosaves when a specific variable/flag is true.

If the combat option is not selected then the game would not run the autosave method. Simple as.

 

[Makabb]

I present a solution for this thread.

Don't forget

 

[Doktor Best]

what does human revolutions have to do with this? the actual line hes saying is displayed accurately. The dialogue was one of the strong parts of the game.

 

[naossano]

Strongly disagree with the OP rat except for one thing.

It is not because because a text is long that it is necessary well written.
But it doesn't mean it is bad either and it doesn't necessary mean short is better.

Also, you say that long dialogs suck.
Well, you might suck what you want but it is not because you don't like something that it automatically suck.

Come on, you are on the codex, defending games that the large majority of players don't like.
Does it mean that all those games suck and that developpers should stop doing them, that we should close the codex?

All games/movies/books/etc aren't there to please all playerbase.
There are some that please you, but not me, and others that please me and not you.
Some like you hate long texts while some others love them and were craving for years to have news games with longer dialogs, as the only instances were few and far between.
As long as they are games with grunts, games with average dialogs and other with longs one, i don't see why one should complain, especially if some of those dialogs are optionnal.

I don't like car games, i don't play car games. Why should i complain about them existing ?

 

[Mozg]

I've never played a game where I've thought, "This writing is good but there's too much."

That said I don't think I've ever played a game where it takes as long to read even a big-for-a-game chunk of text as it takes to sit through a typical voice acted cutscene.

 

[DavidBVal]

I agree with the people pointing out that the text shoudn't describe things the game is already able to show, but other than that, unless writing is truly terrible, I rarely find myself concerned about having to read dialogues.

 

[roshan]

In this case, it would be an 'event', a brief and largely abstract story in which you make choices.

The question isn't over whether or not you like either option in a subjective sense. I explained that there's huge debates about two literary greats, after all, a debate in which some people think those guys truly suck and can't write for shit. It's a question of viability within the scope and context of the gameplay. Do I want the player to be immersed? Do they care about immersion? If it's a text-only sequence, do I shoot for immersion or stick to the gameplay functionality of making choices? In one example I have two people walking into the undercity where they meet a skeevy guy who talks like he learned his English in the dark. Do they follow him, or are they a little more hesitant? Can I make a question of following him be more questionable while being super concise?

"You take a purse of crowns and follow Kruger through an unwinding of darker and darker streets. Soon enough, almost nothing can be seen. Wet cobblestones, licked white by strobes of moonlight, lazily guide you into what depths the city hides from those who prefer the day. Suddenly, a torch flares up and a man's face, afloat and disembodied in the dark, speaks out to you."

How is this concise at all?

- How can a wet cobblestone be "lazy"? What is the difference between a wet cobblestone "lazily" guiding you versus a wet cobblestone guiding you in a "non-lazy" way?
- "A purse of crowns"? What else would a purse contain other than money?
- Azarkon makes a pretty good point about writing from the player's experience. One walking through such a street would not think of it as being "licked white by strobes of moonlight", it's a description that fundamentally alienates the player. Writing silly descriptions and metaphors does not create immersion, in fact, it does the exact opposite.

The above example is the exact kind of verbal masturbation that makes games like PoE shit, and will most likely make the new Torment shit too.

"That degg here for da'fights?"
Kruger nods. "Aye, we're here for the fights."
The stranger tilts the torch forward. "Ain't asking if you was, was asking if da'degg was. Is he here to fight'r'not?"
You nod this time. "It's been brought to fight, yes."
The stranger smiles. "Alright then. Right this way, gen-teel-men. Watch yer step. All manner of piss goes downhill."
In an instant, the torch is gone. You will have to follow the man's cackling laughter.

This is just annoying, a short description of the man at the beginning followed by straight up dialogue would work best within a game. There is no need for the player to know that his character is nodding while saying yes. There is no need also to know that Kruger is nodding while saying yes. It's needless repetition and really adds nothing to the experience.

If they get to the dog fights and I just say, "Dogs are fighting.", does that illicit a similar response as a description of the horrors of dog fighting? If I describe a man cradling his dead dog, crying over some regret of having brought him to this place, does that give the player pause? Or do I just make it a monetary, objective choice: Dogs are fighting. Do you want to put yours in the ring? How much do you bet on him? What happens if the player experiences this event twice?

Your mistake is thinking that you are capable of emotionally manipulating players through flamboyant text - you're not. No matter how many grisly adjectives and literary devices you use to describe the "horrors of dog fighting" or that man with his dead dog, the player will just not give a shit, because they are just playing a game, and they know it.

 

[upwardlymobile]

I have the same problem. I read EVERY SINGLE THING in PoE. All the backers' stories, all the available lines of dialogue and all the lore. By the end of the game I was completly disheartened. I will never touch that game again, never.

i read the first 10 or so i ran into, i gave up partly b/c every time i opened one up the game set my subwoofer rumbling so loud i thought the walls would crack

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah. Fundamental difference between video game and a novel, is that player eventually wants reading to be over. He's not there to read. He's there to play. He wants to read the text and get on with it.

When you're reading a novel, reading is all there is. If you want to push on the action, you keep reading. If you want to immerse yourself in the world, you keep reading. If you're one of people who enjoy technical aspects of writing, you will reread a passage or a page or two.

In a video game, none of that shit matters. If I want to experience the game world, I go and I fucking look at it. This is what shitty video game writers don't get. Even in a text-based game, text is ultimately secondary, its only there to serve the gameplay. Even PS:T, where reading IS the game, wouldn't work if entire thing was just one location, where you sit in a room and click on text.

This is why overly elaborate descriptions are so infuriating. Don't describe to me things that are on the screen. Worst case scenario, do it only to add detail. And fucking get to the point, keep those metaphors where they belong, like ingame lore books or text-based cut-scenes.