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Vapourware LOL ELECTRONIC ARTS: The EA Thread

Xeon

Augur
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Messages
1,858
I played Sims 3 for a while and I don't think I had any bugs, I also think I ran it on the highest graphic wise, doesn't need that much power probably. the only time where my game seriously lagged was when I installed a mod that gave sims kinda of a better dynamic schedule or something.

Dragon Age 2 also didn't encounter any bugs IIRC but the game kinda felt half finished.
 

Western

Arcane
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Codex 2012 Codex 2014 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Troika was a small company with a very limited budget. What's EA's excuse?
That they were small (and really, they weren't that small at the time) was no excuse for releasing broken buggy messes of games that had to be fixed by fans over and over again. Other very small budget companies have proven time and time again that it is possible to deliver polished games with few bugs, even on a small budget.
Atleast the games were good in spite of the bugs, I'm guessing they were buggy due to the complexity and amount of content. I'm not surprised some Indies release polished products, since it's not as hard to polish up pretty platformers and simpler games. Still if Troika was around now it's likely their products would be more polished since they'd have early access (beta testers paying them), and more money from digital distribution.
 

SuicideBunny

(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻
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Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
I'm guessing they were buggy due to the complexity and amount of content.
more likely buggy because money was tight so they couldn't afford testers and thanks to crunch time nobody had time enough to spare to test or fix them (or nobody cared enough). just look at the kinds of bugs they had... toee had monsters spawn in walls when resting triggering endless combat. possible but very very unlikely to miss when testing.
bloodlines had that shitty scripting typo everyone could fix themselves which made the game impossible to finish. a 100% noticeable and reproducible bug that is trivial to fix, yet it was there.
 

aris

Arcane
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Apr 27, 2012
Messages
11,613
Or from a more codexian standpoint: They knew that the fans were going to buy (and possibly they knew that they would) fix their games for free and apologize for them till kingdom come, so they didn't give a shit and took a calculated risk.

Quite frankly, I can't blame them: Fixing bugs is one of the most soul crushingly boring tasks that you can do.

Again, since it has been proven time and time again that one can deliver high quality polished games on a tight budget and even tight time constraints, it is evident that delivering polished games that weren't broken, wasn't a high priority at the company. Hell, even with the source engine, they couldn't deliver a game that wasn't completely broken initially.
 
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Western

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Codex 2012 Codex 2014 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Or from a more codexian standpoint: They knew that the fans were going to buy (and possibly they knew that they would) fix their games for free and apologize for them till kingdom come, so they didn't give a shit and took a calculated risk.

Quite frankly, I can't blame them: Fixing bugs is one of the most soul crushingly boring tasks that you can do.

Again, since it has been proven time and time again that one can deliver high quality polished games on a tight budget and even tight time constraints, it is evident that delivering polished games that weren't broken, wasn't a high priority at the company. Hell, even with the source engine, they couldn't deliver a game that wasn't completely broken initially.

If you're going to troll at least make it believable, having the source engine wasn't as much help as you think when Valve would keep updating it, breaking things in the latest Bloodlines build which would then need to be fixed. Also I haven't played a "high quality polished game, on a tight budget and even tight time constraints", that was as enjoyable or complex as Bloodlines or Arcanum in recent times, if you have examples please direct me to them as I'm sure I'd enjoy playing them.
 

aris

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A good developer makes games on the budget they have, not on the budget they wish they had (see double fine). Development is all about making sensible sacrifices, Troika chose to sacrifice the play ability of their games, and they ultimately suffered from it; They had to close down, because the sales understandably weren't high due to relatively low scores (that would be high hadn't the games been broken, and if they had made the right choices).

And please, Bloodlines wasn't some indie-developed-in-the-garage budget. It had a big budget, and also, it's not incredibly complex. Don't get me wrong, I really like Bloodlines, it was at the time it came out one of the best games I've played, and I still think it is. But this brainless white knighting of Troika needs to stop.
 

Western

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All of Troikas games were profitable, they didn't close because they went bankrupt. Troika would've stayed open but they couldn't get an offer to work on something the wanted to work on. Nobody says Troikas games weren't buggy, but the upside far outweighs that, that's why their games got/get the support they do

I also think you don't acknowledge the differences in development then and now, no major digital distribution, no early access, etc. Troika would likely enjoy far more success in the current market.
 

aris

Arcane
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Meh, bloodlines didn't sell well at all, which is likely the reason for why they never got a contract again.
 

Xor

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Troika closed because they couldn't successfully pitch anything to publishers during Bloodlines' development cycle. No contract equals no work equals no money. They had no choice but to shut down. At the time, the industry was changing: PC gaming was (supposedly) dead, niche genres were increasingly going extinct or being folded into action shooters, and publishers were increasingly less willing to fund low- and mid-budget games since the returns weren't enough to make it worthwhile. Troika was never going to survive in that environment, profit or no.
 

Infinitron

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http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-from-the-terrible-dungeon-keeper-mobile-game

Will EA learn from the terrible Dungeon Keeper mobile game?
EA boss Andrew Wilson promises, yes.

For many, the Dungeon Keeper reboot was yet another depressing example of a treasured game ruined by greedy corporations and their money-grabbing microtransactions.

The in-app purchase-fuelled game was slammed by critics, and fans of Bullfrog and designer Peter Molyneux's much-loved 1997 original.

Dan Whitehead dug up a 1/10 in Eurogamer's Dungeon Keeper review, saying: "Free-to-play is not automatically a bad thing. There are plenty of examples of great games - hardcore PC games - that use micro-transactions, and do so while building an engaged and devoted fanbase. League of Legends. World of Tanks. Team Fortress 2. There are clearly better templates to follow.

"Yet what we have here is the shell of Bullfrog's pioneering strategy game, hollowed out and filled up with what is essentially a beat-for-beat clone of Clash of Clans. Every function, every mechanism, every online feature has been tried and tested already by Supercell's money machine and EA is following behind, drooling like a Pavlovian dog. That's what stings the most: not that Dungeon Keeper has gone free-to-play, but that it's done so in such soulless fashion."

Dungeon Keeper was mired in controversy from the get-go, with its negative reviews, user backlash and then, somewhat hilariously, a scandal over EA Mobile's attempt to filter out 1-4 star in-app reviews of Dungeon Keeper from the Google Play Store. When EA shut down Dungeon Keeper's developer Mythic, known for the Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online massively multiplayer games, was anyone surprised?

So when I sat down with EA boss Andrew Wilson at E3 earlier this month, I wanted to know if the company had learned any lessons from the Dungeon Keeper debacle, and whether the overwhelming negative reaction had reached the very top.

jpg

The original Dungeon Keeper, released on PC in 1997.

Wilson, who became EA CEO in September 2013, began his response by promising "open and transparent conversations" with Eurogamer on Dungeon Keeper. Previously, he had told me of how he had tried to "re-instill a player first culture" at EA when he starting work as boss.

"We are as a company, loved by many, but for some, we've had some challenges on a player level," he said.

"We'd come off the back of some negativity around some of the things we were doing, and, quite frankly, some of the things we weren't doing well enough. You come into a company that is inherently good, that is full of inherently good people who come to work to deliver great things every day, but just isn't always manifesting itself in the way you would expect it to - that comes with some challenges. We've been working on that stuff.

"I wanted to re-instill a player first culture inside the organisation. At the end of the day we are nothing but for the players that play our games. We're not above that. We're not below that. That is what we are. In some areas of the company we had been distracted from that somewhat."

I suggested Dungeon Keeper, which has a Metascore of 42, might have been one of those EA missteps Wilson had described.

In his defence, Wilson held his hands up, calling what went down with Dungeon Keeper "a shame". He even admitted EA had "misjudged" its economy.

"For new players, it was kind of a cool game," he began. "For people who'd grown up playing Dungeon Keeper there was a disconnect there. In that aspect we didn't walk that line as well as we could have. And that's a shame."

Wilson said Dungeon Keeper had sparked two types of feedback among players. One, that it didn't feel like Dungeon Keeper as old school fans remembered it, and two, that the free-to-play model it employed didn't make players feel like they were getting value for their money.

"We misjudged the economy," he admitted.

While it's good to hear the feedback to Dungeon Keeper made its way up to the boss of EA, what's important is what he plans to do about it.

Wilson insisted EA had learned much from the reaction to Dungeon Keeper, saying, "you have to be very careful when you reinvent IP for a new audience that has a very particular place in the hearts and minds and memories of an existing audience." He added he had personally offered feedback of his own to EA's developers following the release of the game.

"You have to think about value irrespective of the increment of spend that is being made," he said. "And as we look forward, the two lessons we get are, one, where you are dealing with IP that has existed in the past, even though you're reinventing it for a new audience, you have to do your best to stay true to its essence. And that's a challenge. The Star Trek J.J. Abrams was very different from the first season I watched, but I still felt good about it.

"The second is, when you're thinking about any business model, premium, subscription, free-to-play, value has to exist. Whether it's a dollar, $10, $100 or $1000, you have to delivering value, and always err on the side of delivering more value, not less."

Whether gamers and indeed the industry will trust EA if it does attempt to re-invent more of its extensive back catalogue of much-loved intellectual property remains to be seen. Remember, EA has the rights to the likes of Populous, Magic Carpet and Theme Park buried deep within its vaults.

And it remains to be seen whether some of the creators of those beloved games will trust EA, too. For Peter Molyneux, Dungeon Keeper's original designer, the game sparked mixed emotions.

"The first thing I did in Dungeon Keeper is, ah, great, imps, digging out," he told Eurogamer.

"And I clicked on the wrong block and it came up and said two hours to dig away. And I thought what the hell is going on here?"

Molyneux accused Dungeon Keeper of being, ultimately, a badly balanced game, and that this, coupled with the fact Dungeon Keeper is remembered so fondly, meant the backlash was particularly vociferous.

"I don't think anyone would be so against the monetisation loops if they came in a lot later and a lot more gentle," he pondered. "But it is so in your face."

Molyneux said there were some aspects of Dungeon keeper that he liked, such as the magic effects ("if they were in the original game they would have made the game better"), the audio and the return of imp slapping, but the negatives outweighed the positives.

"We all agree those bits seem to be wiped out as soon as you get to this ridiculous climb in what the game asks of you. It's just so ridiculous. They're so greedy for forcing you to spend money it's scary."

Who is to blame for that? Don't blame the developers, Molyneux pleaded. They're just doing their job. Instead, point the finger at "analytics people" who impose tried and trusted monetisation techniques on the gameplay, forcing players to do this and that at this time and then in order to get X and Y number of gems. It's a carefully crafted, heavily researched dark art that players of many free mobile games are familiar with. Indeed, for millions of gamers this kind of monetisation is all they know.

"It seems to me like, why would a designer ever want that from one of their games?" Molyneux said "It seems as if there's some argument under the surface."

"This is what I thought: they forgot the spirit of what Dungeon Keeper was. It was good to be bad. Getting people to giggle with the pleasure of being bad. It was a mixture of an RTS and a tower defense turned on its head. And rather than taking that further they stuck it there.

"Part of me thinks, god, if I'd just been involved a little bit... And to be fair to those guys by the way, they did say to me before they released it, have you had a look at it? But I was too busy to look at it. I felt bad about that."

jpg

For most of us, the proof that EA will listen to constructive criticism, as Wilson has promised to do, will be found in future titles. Many are and will be skeptical, and I'm sure some will view Wilson's latest comments as an attempt to dig EA out of yet another PR hole. But there is evidence that the company may be steering towards the right track.

In May Eurogamer reviewed the FIFA World beta. FIFA World is a free-to-play version of the main FIFA series for PC, and includes microtransactions. Tom Bramwell wrote:

"FIFA World is an impressively solid entry into the world of PC free-to-play, and not at all the sort of game that brings to mind EA's recent fumbles with SimCity or the disastrously monetised Dungeon Keeper. The game itself takes some of the best parts of the main FIFA series and repackages them in a way that even hardcore fans can appreciate, although they will find the standard of opposition is generally lower, while the monetisation in its current form is far from the gouging monstrosity some may have anticipated."

As our interview ended, Wilson highlighted FIFA World as an example of how EA will do free-to-play better. Fingers crossed it's not a one-off.
 

Baron Dupek

Arcane
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
1,870,826
Well, everyone can say "sorry" after shipping their shit and gaining millions $$$. Money safe, do what ya want now, nothing else matter.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
Well, everyone can say "sorry" after shipping their shit and gaining millions $$$. Money safe, do what ya want now, nothing else matter.
I wonder if they actually did make any significant amount money off it. From what I read you pretty much have to start paying right away to make any progress, which is the opposite of the free2play money extraction model. You first have to get the player hooked with plenty of free content, and then only ask for small payments at first to ease the player into the idea of paying to progress.

Being shown a screen encouraging you to pay $99 for the "best value" pile of gems just after you start playing will warn off even the fattest whale.
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
Patron
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
5,111
EU seems to be in general making baby steps towards actually protecting its residents from F2P predations. Wasn't there something about MMOs not actually being able to advertize as Free2Play unless they actually are without P2W cash shop models?
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
Pointless as EU itself.This does nothing for people that have at least 90 IQ.
A tiny portion of the gamer population. These laws are godsend. Not so much for protecting the idiots, i don't give two shits about them. But they hurt shit Companies, and that is :incline:
 

Dr Tomo

Learned
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May 31, 2013
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In a library near you
Core gamers uncomfortable with change, says Peter Moore

"Core" gamers are uncomfortable with change and don't like embracing new business models, according to EA's Peter Moore.

The publisher's COO told GamesIndustry that EA is excited about the future health of the industry, but conceded that some traditional gamers will take longer to convince that new innovations will be beneficial.
"I think we're going into almost a golden age of gaming, where it doesn't matter where you are, at any time, any place, any price point, any amount of time, there's a game available to you," Moore said.

"And our job as a company is to provide those game experiences. And then on our big franchises, tie them all together.

"I think the challenge sometimes is that the growth of gaming... there's a core that doesn't quite feel comfortable with that. Your readers, the industry in particular. I don't get frustrated, but I scratch my head at times and say, 'Look. These are different times.'

"And different times usually evoke different business models. Different consumers come in. They've got different expectations. And we can either ignore them or embrace them, and at EA, we've chosen to embrace them."

Moore cited the advent of MP3s as an example of the danger the games industry could face if it doesn't adapt its content delivery policies.

"We as an industry have to embrace change," he explained. "We can't be music. We cannot be music.

"Because music said, 'Screw you. You're going to buy a CD for $16.99, and we're going to put 14 songs on there, two of which you care about, but you're going to buy our CD.' Then Shawn Fanning writes a line of code or two, Napster happens, and the consumers take control.

"Creating music to sell is no longer a profitable concern. The business model has changed to concerts, corporate concerts, merchandise, things of that nature. Actually selling music is not a way of making money any more, except for a core group."

One of the most notable concerns some gamers have is with the free-to-play model being adapted by many publishers and developers. "I think the core audience that dislikes the fact that there are play-for-free games and microtransactions built into those... fine, I get that," Moore said.

"As you know, I read all the stuff, and it is the most intelligent commentary on the web as regards games. There's no doubt about that. But every now and again, and you've seen me do it, somebody will come in there and say something stupid that I think is beneath the site itself and beneath the industry."

"I don't think anybody has to like it," Moore said. "I think that's where it goes. It's like me: I get grumpy about some things, but if the river of progress is flowing and I'm trying to paddle my canoe in the opposite direction, then eventually I'm just going to lose out. From the perspective of what needs to happen in this industry, we need to embrace the fact that billions of people are playing games now."

Last year, Moore denied that EA lobbied for "gating functions" on used games, insisting that he in fact supports the pre-owned games industry.

In nutshell RPG codex should embrace new business models.
 

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