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Dragon Age Cooldown Versus Vancian

Shadenuat

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The problem with Vancian magic is that the player only has to rest to refill their slots
That's no small "only". Spells become important strategic resource, not just tactical one. And for games that have the balls to actually not allow you rest (KotC) it's a big deal.

99 lyrium potions and chain casting CoC, Glyph of Paralyze, Paralyze is superior how?

Vancian system accomplishes 2 design goals that I am found of:
- It allows for incredible wealth of spells, not limited by your level ups or skill points
- But you can only generally use a flexible set of spells, you choose your bag of tricks for a day

I'm sure ppl will jump out and say that there are less obscure and complicated ways to accomplish these (and some others, too lazy to repeat the vanciansucksnoitdoesnot dialogue) goals, but I respect system nevertheless (even if I myself for personal use or in a gaem would have used something more lore friendly like Wild Magic to restrict spells).
 
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SCO

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Is project eternity using cooldowns? :what:

tell me it isn't true
 

Mangoose

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
The problem with Vancian magic is that the player only has to rest to refill their slots
That's no small "only". Spells become important strategic resource, not just tactical one. And for games that have the balls to actually not allow you rest (KotC) it's a big deal.

99 lyrium potions and chain casting CoC, Glyph of Paralyze, Paralyze is superior how?

Vancian system accomplishes 2 design goals that I am found of:
- It allows for incredible wealth of spells, not limited by your level ups or skill points
- But you can only generally use a flexible set of spells, you choose your bag of tricks for a day

I'm sure ppl will jump out and say that there are less obscure and complicated ways to accomplish these (and some others, too lazy to repeat the vanciansucksnoitdoesnot dialogue) goals, but I respect system nevertheless (even if I myself for personal use or in a gaem would have used something more lore friendly like Wild Magic to restrict spells).
But but but you can rest anywhere.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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The problem with Vancian magic is that the player only has to rest to refill their slots
That's no small "only". Spells become important strategic resource, not just tactical one. And for games that have the balls to actually not allow you rest (KotC) it's a big deal.

Except not many games that implement Vancian magic restrict resting with any degree of conviction. And since PoE isn't being made for IE vets but instead for IE newbs (99% of the Codex), I don't see them having the guts to go pure Vancian with restrictive resting.

99 lyrium potions and chain casting CoC, Glyph of Paralyze, Paralyze is superior how?

Only by reason of them not being "I WIN" buttons. Two of those spells are single-target, all have a chance of failure. CoC even has aiming issues, and isn't party friendly. Not saying it still isn't OP, but it isn't the monster you're imagining, nor are the two paralysis spells even when "chain casted".

Sleep, Blindness and Web in BG1/IWD1 almost never need to be recasted per encounter, simply because they're final word.
BG2 has four different ways to cast infinite spells per day:
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/EndlessSpells.htm

So how is that superior to Origins? I think you and any other RPG vets need to go and play Origins on Nightmare, the combat is superior to IE in many ways. I've already proved Origins isn't "spammy" by virtue of lengthy cooldowns in most cases, and the conditional tactical framework, and the fact that the sustained encounters consisting of many more and powerful enemies necessitate the cooldown approach. The only ones who have disagreed, are the ones who can't get their facts straight, and have imagined ideas about the game.

Vancian system accomplishes 2 design goals that I am found of:
- It allows for incredible wealth of spells, not limited by your level ups or skill points

But probably limited by your actual monetary wealth and the fact you have to find them as loot or merchant inventory, right?

- But you can only generally use a flexible set of spells, you choose your bag of tricks for a day

Which is great, when the day period can be enforced.

I'm sure ppl will jump out and say that there are less obscure and complicated ways to accomplish these (and some others, too lazy to repeat the vanciansucksnoitdoesnot dialogue) goals, but I respect system nevertheless (even if I myself for personal use or in a gaem would have used something more lore friendly like Wild Magic to restrict spells).

I respect Vancian magic, I just don't respect the failed implementations.

EDIT- I posted a draft by mistake. Oh well.
 
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The problem with Vancian magic is that the player only has to rest to refill their slots, thereby trivializing management of spells. Just spam the spells from their slots, faceroll every encounter, then rest. Rinse Repeat.

Okay, there's (at least) two workarounds to this:

-Mod the game to severely restrict resting; take out the leniency the developers left in, likely as a crutch for newbies.

-Don't exploit oversights in the game that greatly damage the integrity of the system. Not rest-cheesing is easy, and makes the game so much more interesting.

Both of these work well and are relatively simple fixes. The excision of one "broken" aspect quickly rights the system as a whole, because it is fundamentally sound (not saying it's perfect, however).

The same can't be said of DA:O. There's no clear cut restrictions the player can place upon themselves to correct the system. Spamming mana potions is pretty much integral to mage gameplay by the way the game is balanced. Restricting use of each spell to a set number of casts-per-day is silly, because there's no common-sense judgments easily made; it's one thing to not restspam in a hostile dungeon but a whole different matter to only cast Misdirection Hex twice per dungeon.

Origins balances cooldowns by throwing more enemies at you in sustained encounters, which require constant adjustment and re-evaluation.

Not really, as outside of boss fights there's only a couple of instances where the player is in prolonged combat, namely the undead attack on Redcliffe and the final sequences in Denerim (where most of the Darkspawn are there for show and die in one hit). Everything else goes down pretty quickly (played Nightmare on release; don't know if mods/patches significantly altered things) as long as you aren't playing some sort of gimp party and know what you are doing. Decent parties have immense amounts of firepower they can bring to bear in every encounter making short work of most anything.

Lastly, the charges against Origins encounters not having something inbetween boss and trashmob aren't really true. There are many tougher encounters, in which a party's resources might be stretched.

What resources? In any fight that isn't a prolonged combat (i.e. a boss battle), the battle is usually "over" within one cycle of abilities. And then, after combat is over, you have all your abilities back. I also don't recall any consumables being particularly useful and scarce.

Basically, DA:O plays the same as an IE games does with rest-spamming...except Origins was designed that way, whereas the IE games were exploited.

Don't get me wrong, DA:O was good for what is was, but a lot of the systems weren't very well thought out.
 

Mangoose

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The problem with Vancian magic is that the player only has to rest to refill their slots
That's no small "only". Spells become important strategic resource, not just tactical one. And for games that have the balls to actually not allow you rest (KotC) it's a big deal.

Except not many games that implement Vancian magic restrict resting with any degree of conviction. And since PoE isn't being made for IE vets but instead for IE newbs (99% of the Codex), I don't see them having the guts to go pure Vancian with restrictive resting.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Ability

Active abilities are latent powers that can be activated for a short time. They are either a Per-rest, a per-encounter resource or can always be used. Per-encounter abilities can be used a number of times in an encounter and are then disabled until combat ends. Per-rest abilities can be used a number of times after resting before you must rest to recover them.
 

Whalenought_Joe

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Regrettably I think cooldown spells/skills are the cheap, accessible tool realtime games are going to be using more and more in the future. It takes little effort to design cooldown skills and their implications with the rest of the game (no utility planning), and less yet to know when to use them. WoW and D3 made it evident that casual players today don't like to be punished for machine-gunning skills, or creating utility characters. This site is about casual MMORPG discussion, right?
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Okay, there's (at least) two workarounds to this:
-Mod the game to severely restrict resting; take out the leniency the developers left in, likely as a crutch for newbies.
-Don't exploit oversights in the game that greatly damage the integrity of the system. Not rest-cheesing is easy, and makes the game so much more interesting.
Both of these work well and are relatively simple fixes. The excision of one "broken" aspect quickly rights the system as a whole, because it is fundamentally sound (not saying it's perfect, however).

I agree, I'd only rather that the rest restrictions were enforced on the dev-level, because many, many, many players will rest to replenish their spells when they run out, thinking nothing of it. Resting whenever a player feels the need to in the IE games also doesn't seem to be an exploit of an oversight, but rather dev intent.

The same can't be said of DA:O. There's no clear cut restrictions the player can place upon themselves to correct the system. Spamming mana potions is pretty much integral to mage gameplay by the way the game is balanced. Restricting use of each spell to a set number of casts-per-day is silly, because there's no common-sense judgments easily made; it's one thing to not restspam in a hostile dungeon but a whole different matter to only cast Misdirection Hex twice per dungeon.

Firstly, the player should never have to self-impose a restriction such as not-resting or not-waiting in the first place, this is a fundamental mechanic devs need to get right. Secondly, in Origins I rarely find my mages quaffing potions of any kind with too much regularity, even on Nightmare. It might happen once or twice per encounter, that's it, which is hardly spamming. Also, there are spells and items which increase health and mana regen and a sensible investment in Willpower further reduces the need (think Wynne build), as does setting potion use up in the tactical framework system. I just really think you and others are over-selling the "spam" of Origins.

Not really, as outside of boss fights there's only a couple of instances where the player is in prolonged combat, namely the undead attack on Redcliffe and the final sequences in Denerim (where most of the Darkspawn are there for show and die in one hit). Everything else goes down pretty quickly (played Nightmare on release; don't know if mods/patches significantly altered things) as long as you aren't playing some sort of gimp party and know what you are doing. Decent parties have immense amounts of firepower they can bring to bear in every encounter making short work of most anything.

I agree the Denerim and Redcliffe fights are woeful, but they're not the ones I had in mind. I didn't play Origins on release, so I'd say the patches changed a heap of things. I know for a fact that Ultimate Edition on Nightmare throws many more and powerful enemies at the player, also increasing their AI and resistances. In some cases, Nightmare throws twice as many enemies at you. Some enemies keep their ground and some hangback entirely, so in a more drawnout fight, of which there's quite a few - even in random encounters - you'll have to deal with a few stages of combat. Bioware should have made Nightmare default difficulty, and omitted the difficulty slider entirely. But then, how many devs have the guts to do that...

What resources? In any fight that isn't a prolonged combat (i.e. a boss battle), the battle is usually "over" within one cycle of abilities. And then, after combat is over, you have all your abilities back. I also don't recall any consumables being particularly useful and scarce.

Again, not on Nightmare from my experience. Many times halfway thru a fight my quickbar starts to show signs of total cooldown and I have to re-appraise the situation, carefully. And if you don't have a herbalist then expect to run out of healing salves and lyrium potions, as they're not confetti loot, they're not cheap to buy, and unlike in IE games, cash doesn't fall from the sky in thick wads.

Basically, DA:O plays the same as an IE games does with rest-spamming...except Origins was designed that way, whereas the IE games were exploited.
Don't get me wrong, DA:O was good for what is was, but a lot of the systems weren't very well thought out.

I'd argue that the IE games weren't exploited and it isn't the players' fault, that it was dev-intent that the player can rest whenever and wherever they wish. This is supported by small, specific ARs being flagged as unrestable and all the others just left wide open to rest abuse, plus there's a serious lack of resource-draining on-rest respawns in most ARs, maybe to let the player spam rest if they forgot to turn on "Rest Until Healed" or in case they need to force-trigger a romance or other dialogue. But I would argue that the Vancian magic system is exploited or cheapened by IE's implementation: Goldbox, ToEE and some NWN1 modules did a decent job by threatening a player who absent-mindedly spams with tedium as punishment.
 

Nihiliste

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I'm pretty sure that game was developed for PC and ported to console?

No

You're wrong:
Through a series of circumstances it was decided that with my not wanting to participate on Dragon Age 2 it was time to transition in a new lead to finish the Dragon Age console versions and ramp up for Dragon Age 2.
from brent knowles blog post about leaving bioware
http://blog.brentknowles.com/2010/08/15/bioware-brent-year-10-fall-2008-summer-2009/
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Pretty sure they were developed concurrently, rather than one or the other. They had to make a lot of design concessions due to console development as well.
 

Sensuki

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Only been wrong about one thing and it was because I misremembered the main thing that pissed me off about DA:O isometric combat. It was the auto centering camera, not unit control. It was annoying because you don't WANT to be centered on your character when you go to use an ability, you want to be where you fucking positioned the camera so you can click on the enemy or unit you wanted to select. It's fucking annoying when you move the camera and go okay, I want to do this, select your character and have the camera pan back to where your character is so you have to do it all again.

When they did all of the presentations and movies of DA:O they were all on console. They never showed any of the PC versions. Originally PC was the lead title waaaaay back in 2003/2004 but I'm pretty sure that by the end of development they were designing primarily for the console, rather than the PC.
 

Shadenuat

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Only by reason of them not being "I WIN" buttons. <...> I think you and any other RPG vets need to go and play Origins on Nightmare, the combat is superior to IE in many ways. I've already proved Origins isn't "spammy" by virtue of lengthy cooldowns in most cases, and the conditional tactical framework
I played through DA:O on highest difficulty and also play tested Sea's module "Thirst" that has even more difficult encounters than DA:O, and I waltzed through it with wizard (because low level wiz in DA:O can have Frost and bunch of other low level supah cc) killing everything, drinking 99 lyrium potions and solving encounters I did not suppose to solve on my level, while for warrior/rogue oriented party it is close to impossible.
The gap in power and amount of cheap spam abuse of spells in DA:O is so huge you have to scale down all encounters just because non-mages can't beat them.

The whole wizard class in DA:O is one big IWIN button. An awesum button.
 
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Lilura

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Only been wrong about one thing and it was because I misremembered the main thing that pissed me off about DA:O isometric combat. It was the auto centering camera, not unit control. It was annoying because you don't WANT to be centered on your character when you go to use an ability, you want to be where you fucking positioned the camera so you can click on the enemy or unit you wanted to select. It's fucking annoying when you move the camera and go okay, I want to do this, select your character and have the camera pan back to where your character is so you have to do it all again.

Not entirely wrong this time:

When you zoom out to the tactical view of bird's eye isometric perspective, the camera never pans to another unit when you select it unless you double-click the unit, in which case it doesn't pan but snaps to the unit.

Only when you're not zoomed out to see all your units does the camera pan to center on the selected unit.

In other words, you were too damn dumb to play a tactical game in it's tactical viewpoint, and yet you have the impudence to make fun of me? Hilarious!

The whole wizard class in DA:O is one big IWIN button. An awesum button.

Most of your post is obvious lies and bluster, but even if I admit your "point" - and I don't, it's total BS - mages aren't OP in most other RPGs, including the ones PoE is attempting to emulate, right?

And if you're so hardcore try playing RAVAge along with Smarter AI, Faster Combat v3, Faster Runspeed, 1.99 GT fixpack and tactical framework extension, in this form Origins destroys almost everything out there that isn't turn-based, including the SCS2 Ascension trial-and-error script-bloated garbage.
 

Sensuki

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In other words, you were too damn dumb to play a tactical game in it's tactical viewpoint, and yet you have the impudence to make fun of me? Hilarious!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlXqXCfAG1I

It does it in this video. I never double clicked any units, and you're a hyperaggressive faggot.

e: Centred camera here too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMaWUuVqJXA

You expect to come in here abusing everyone and not expect to be made fun of? Wake up call. It's also a dead give away that you're younger than I am, hahah.
 
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Lilura

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I just don't like willful ignorance, and you're the embodiment of it. Posting vids is useless, everyone who has actually played the game instead of watching it on youtube knows I'm right. But enough of you, you're a waste of my time.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
LOOK AT THE VIDEO : Camera is locked to the selected unit when moving or performing an action just like I remembered it.

Idiot.
 

Nikaido

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMymTp2CxQ4

YAAI. You Are An Idiot.
Now please remove yourself from the gene pool. There is a lot to criticize about DAO, it was a pretty mediocre game with too much filler combat but your arguments are borderline retarded.

DAO is very much a PC game. A decline game, but a PC one.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
The first video I posted has the same unlocked camera. When the game came out I don't think there was an option to unlock the camera, at least to my memory. Like I said I played it the day it came out until I finished it (which I think was like a week later, maybe less), uninstalled and never played it again.
 

Nikaido

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Zoom out. It just automatically comes up by completely zooming out. It's not something like an option in a menu if that's what you were thinking of.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Does it only work at the very highest zoom tick, and like one step lower on mwheeldown it goes back to snap to units?
 

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