Levelling systems

[Naraya]

I have to admit that I much prefer the levelling-by-doing system like for example the one used in TES games, Final Fantasy (item abilities) or UFO:Enemy Unknown (the only real one) to systems that simply "level you up and let you pick a certain discipline" which in my opinion do not feel as rewarding.

This thought occurred to me while playing FF9 and comparing it to M&M7. I mean, skill system in M&M would feel much more rewarding and natural if you mastered your skills by actually swinging a sword or casting a spell than just simply killing things and gaining a number of esoteric "XP points".

I am by no means an expert on this subject - what are your thoughts?

 

[octavius]

XP system is "unrealistic", but skills-increase-with-use system makes autists and aspies forget to play the game and just hop up and down like retards for hours to improve their Jump skill.

Personally I like having different systems.

 

[laclongquan]

It's certainly is funner to play because we can exploit the fuck out of it. Which is its biggest problem: Preventation of Exploit.

Morrowind and its sisters are classic example. And they never manage to fix it.

A better example would be Silent Storm, SS Sentinels, and Hammer & Sickle. They manage it by level cap, class cap, and in some case, item availability cap. You can use lockpicks hundreds of times to level your skill, until the level doesnt allow you pass that cap. Or the class (a sniper doesnt need as much Engineering skill as an Engineer). or item availability (you can only have 10 picks until the shop refreshed. Which tied to story missions).

Of course, in these case, item availability is where you can have biggest trouble to adjust. And we have lots of fun to go around that.
Example: To level up ENG you need to set trap and disable it, other than lockpick. To reduce item expenditure, we dont use lockpick, but use trap probes. arm a trap, that's one action, then disarm that trap, that's two action, with one item cost, and a recovered trap. That's double effective.

 

[V_K]

I liked how leveling in Anvil of Dawn worked, it was essentially a mix of XP and learn-by-doing. Your character had a separate mage XP, that you gained from casting spells, and warrior XP gained from physical combat. Getting a warrior level let you increase a weapon skill of your choosing, getting a mage level - one of magic discipline. I think a more intricate version of this system (i.e. with more classes and skills) could work really well.

 

[Damned Registrations]

A mixture is probably the best way to go, as it brings the exploitative behaviour closest to natural behaviour. If all you have is one or the other, the best option becomes either some gimmicky shit to farm xp (whether that means savescumming to kill a powerful foe in something like Baldur's Gate or farming hordes of weaklings with AoE attacks in other games) or to do some repetitive bullshit to grind a skill high like elder scrolls. If you have both, the best option tends to be actually playing the game, because, for example, sneaking up and backstabbing an enemy on an actual adventure gives you a better combined xp+skill per hour rate than separately sneaking around behind hobos in town and murdering wolves for xp.

 

[hivemind]

I like it when levels give you points you can spend on anything you want.
It offers more freedom in character building and playstyle without sacrificing efficiency.

 

[Athelas]

Use-based progression can work if the opportunity/time to train skills is a resource (think JA2's merc salaries, though that game's use-based system had flaws of its own). Without something like that, you typically end up with a system that rewards nonsensical play styles and punishes sensible play styles.

Use-based systems have some advantages obviously, like preventing the 'walk around with a heap of unused XP/points in case you run into a skill-gated wall' phenomenon.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Use-based progression can work if the opportunity/time to train skills is a resource

This creates a different problem though: now you have a strong incentive to optimize that resource. So instead of killing all the enemies in a fight (which takes a single day 'resource' regardless of what you do) ASAP, you give your guys BB guns and torture everyone to death to improve their accuracy. No matter how you slice it, there'll be a way to optimize your gains. So the best systems are either complex hybrids that make the best overall gains achieved through normal playing (which is quite difficult to balance test for) or extremely gamey systems that simply reward doing well like say, an xp based system with huge bonuses based on achieving goals quickly and without losses. Or an 'unrested' xp bonus for playing a dungeon crawler without resting for extended periods of time.

 

[Naraya]

Anti-"level-by-doing" reasons are valid but I don't see the point of preventing the player from gaming the system, if that's his/her desire and the way to play. I mean - if people jumping around like there's no tomorrow in Morrowind have fun in doing that, why not let them? If they don't find it fun, well then they are possibly retarded/stupid/autistic/etc.

It's like copy-protection and piracy - there will always be a way to circumvent it.

 

[V_K]

So instead of killing all the enemies in a fight (which takes a single day 'resource' regardless of what you do) ASAP, you give your guys BB guns and torture everyone to death to improve their accuracy.

Mixed systems aren't insured from such approaches either. In something like Wiz8 this could even be the optimal strategy because of the level scaling.

 

[Niektory]

So instead of killing all the enemies in a fight (which takes a single day 'resource' regardless of what you do) ASAP, you give your guys BB guns and torture everyone to death to improve their accuracy.

Mixed systems aren't insured from such approaches either. In something like Wiz8 this could even be the optimal strategy because of the level scaling.

Duh, everything can break if you throw something idiotic like level scaling on top.

 

[Damned Registrations]

True. This is why I mentioned they are hard to balance test for. Pretty sure Wiz 7 or 8 are notorious for it being a good idea to sit around being attacked to train dodge or stealth or some shit early on. It seems gamey aspects are the best defense against such things in the end; linking character growth to a sort of score/ranking system for how well you're playing.

And the problem with the exploitable aspects of use based systems isn't that people will do it, it's how it unbalances the game. Using the Morrowind example, if you want to raise your acrobatics skill (and of course you do, it's universally useful) then you need to either jump or swim. So the rate of gain needs to be extremely high so people doing a normal amount of jumping and swimming can gain more than half a skill point after 50 hours. But if the rate was that high, then people exploiting it could max the skill in the first 10 minutes, because practice is hundreds of times faster than normal play. Ditto for any other skill in the game. The only reason you can't cap lockpicking super fast, for example, is because they made the picks inexplicably rare (a gamey solution). Alchemy you can pretty much master in no time at all by simply buying out cheap reagents. Enchanting is nigh impossible to raise. Etc. But training longswords works fine because normal play pretty much is the fastest way to train that, it's only maybe half as fast as swinging a rusty piece of crap at something for training, so you may as well just hunt down actual enemies to swing at.

 

[octavius]

First time I played Morrowind I got to level 20 mainly by running from Cliffracers, Blocking their attacks and killing the with my Sword. Turned my characters into a minor demigod.
So even with normal play MW's level system is broken.

 

[CryptRat]

This thought occurred to me while playing FF9 and comparing it to M&M7. I mean, skill system in M&M would feel much more rewarding and natural if you mastered your skills by actually swinging a sword or casting a spell than just simply killing things and gaining a number of esoteric "XP points".

FF9 and M&M7 are two systems that I like a lot, the M&M7 system because it's free and open, the FF9 system because it encourages paying a lot of attention to items you can buy, encourages exploration, etc...
I don't really like Morrowind because, on the contrary to those 2 systems, I consider that I do nothing "bv myself" regarding character developement.
I understand that many people think quite the opposite, but playing with numbers (see Realms of Arkania) or with skills directly on the character sheet is much more fun to me than learning-by-doing. The most fun parts in RPGs for me is character creation in Realms of Arkania or Megatraveller.

 

[Ippolit]

Focusing on the balancing/gating elements might be helpful, right now 3 examples come to my mind:

PS:T has the Lady of Pain.The first time i played the game, i abused the respawning of certain NPCs with killing an Abishai in the Hive over and over again for easy and early 7k xp. Now the Lady of Pain could have interrupted the killing of her residents with "STOP THIS NONSENSE! FEEL MY SHADOW!" and this would have been totally acceptable. Or think about the Cowled Wizards in BG2 - if abusing the system requires you to use sorcery (maybe through wishes?), they are able to gate your silliness by protecting the null-magic-law.

Tactics Ogre has level scaling enemies :--/ and being overleveled gets you vastly decreased exp, same with Final Fantasy Tactics iirc. But the cool thing about this game is the huge number of medals (=one time stat increase) it provides, medals who are often way stronger than several lvl-ups. One of them needs you to do 5 times in a row a successful ranged attack, which feels neither stupid nor degenerate. And the introducing of a Training Ground/an Arena doesn't let you feel silly if you feel the need to maximize stat gains.

You could even compare Tactics Ogre's medals with the abilities in FF9 - many really strong abilities can't be get through exploiting the systems or grinding. To gain these abilities (=items) you need to dig ( ) deep into the game and do side quests, minigames or use the well-designed crafting system. Of course there is always room for improvement: FF9 stat gains per lvl-up increase when you already have high stats so you can exploit that by a low-lvl run to collect the items with the most stat bonuses and do the lvl-ups after that. Hm. But since the game doesn't have lvl scaling, this behaviour actually provides a challenge.

3rd example would be X-Com. There are several silly exp-maxing strategies you probably all know but there is a maximum stat increase you can get.
Knights of Honor had the option to have real-time battles (worldmap-time doesn't stop in a battle) and since in this game fights could have been won without a single loss if you just took your time and sniped everyone this option encouraged you to fight more aggressively to prevent seeing your kingdom in ruins after a battle.
X-Com would totally work with such an option (1 turn = 1 hour maybe) to prevent further torturing of poor silacoids.

 

[Alienman]

Gothic, Risen had great leveling systems. You get xp, but to actually have to learn new skills and such, you have to find a trainer, pay money, and well, they actually teach you the new skills through dialogue.

 

[undecaf]

I like the abstraction of an XP system and point allocation better than learn-through-grind.

Although, when I still played PnP stuff, I think it was Cyberpunk, we had a sort of combined system where the heavy lifting came from skillpoint rewards, but point buy costs got subtly mitigated through succesful use of the skill. It was years ago, so I can't remember how it worked exactly, but I think such might work in cRPG's too (or perhaps not...).

 

[Daemongar]

There's no static answer. The answer for me is that the AD&D system is perfectly fine. Over time, you gain large amounts of XPs and then level up and seek trainers. It also explains why there are so many 0 level NPC's with barely anything but a few coppers running around. The bad part is that crpg's feel the need to bombard you with high amounts of XPs at higher levels because the current rpg crowd needs to level every 10 minutes.

Leveling should be an extension of the world and feel like it would make sense in the context of someone of such and such a level earned it, and that your typical citizen peon can't match that power because they never did what the player did. As much as I like Morrowind, hell, each NPC would be level 20 by the time they hit age 18 (again, there's no reason why they couldn't be level 20, but then I would expect that the whole world dynamics would change.)

But there isn't really anything particularly wrong with level by doing: players want to exploit the system? So what? Why would anyone care? The same as if I want to reload to get max HPs, or better treasure, or a better outcome from a fight - why should someone have to develop around this?

Either way, IMO the best systems are classic D&D systems, and assigned point. I hold up Dragon Wars and it's ilk as the ideal. Wizardy 7 is a close second - you kill stuff, slowly accumulate XPs, and eventually level with some randomness and some strategy.

 

[Lilura]

First time I played Morrowind I got to level 20 mainly by running from Cliffracers, Blocking their attacks and killing the with my Sword. Turned my characters into a minor demigod.
So even with normal play MW's level system is broken.

Alchemy is the worst: it's fast, efficient and yields cash for trainers. Level-by-doing tends to suck... even Jagged Alliance 2 is hopelessly broken in this respect, though it requires much more knowledge of the systems.

Select NWN modders have managed to eliminate many forms of abuse, characteristic of experience-based leveling, through strict dungeonmastery; going beyond most commercial titles.

 

[Xathrodox86]

I like it when levels give you points you can spend on anything you want.
It offers more freedom in character building and playstyle without sacrificing efficiency.

Yeah but XP in itself is not enough. To avoid situations like: "the acountant suddnedly learns Krav-maga" most skills should have certain prerequisites, not only in the stats department, but also in other skills. That way the powergaming can be reduced to minimum.

 

[adrix89]

Level Ups are more flexibile and balanced then use based.
You can even do interesting things like multiple types of XP and levels or giving a set of points each level that you can spend on the character you want with greater control then the insanity of grindign those skills.

For roguelikes I love level ups from progressing through the levels rather then fighting enemies. You still need the items and equipment so it balances out.

However what I would love to see is something beyond level ups and and skill grinding. A slot based skill/trait system where you unlock skills through various challenges and works like the Final Fantasy 7 materia system.

 

[Roid King]

XP system is "unrealistic", but skills-increase-with-use system makes autists and aspies forget to play the game and just hop up and down like retards for hours to improve their Jump skill.

Personally I like having different systems.

And an XP system has people killing orcs for hours to improve their mercantile skill. At least the LBD system makes a shadow of sense. Seriously, fuck XP. Can you think of anything lazier and less creative?

The problem with the LBD system you describe is not the idea itself, but bad implementation. Specifically, free lunch. Typically, games have stamina that replenishes freely. This should either be restricted, or force the player to eat more or sleep more, so that they would think twice before hopping around like idiots.

 

[Roid King]

It's certainly is funner to play because we can exploit the fuck out of it. Which is its biggest problem: Preventation of Exploit.

Morrowind and its sisters are classic example. And they never manage to fix it.

Morrowind and Oblivion had the idiot attribute multipliers that favored inorganic play, where you went out of your way to raise minor skills just to maximize attributes. I think a really powerful LBD system would not only have to dispense of such exploits (which Skyrim did, though at the cost of ditching attributes altogeher), but also make all skill gains be paid for somehow. Ultimately by food, probably, maybe also sleep. Physical and magical exertions (and the subsequent regeneration of all stats) would increase hunger and tiredness. Another idea is to have the player age, and make skill increase slower not only for higher skills, but with each year (or whichever timeframe the game operates in) that passes. It's hard to implement, but done well it would absolutely destroy conventional XP systems. I feel XP is really just laziness in lieu of thinking up something better.

 

[laclongquan]

Not really. Silent Storm, Silent storm Sentinels, and Hammer Sickle is the Russian answer to LBD system. They are very good in that regard but still have trouble with their solutions to prevent exploits.

 

[Roid King]

Not really. Silent Storm, Silent storm Sentinels, and Hammer Sickle is the Russian answer to LBD system. They are very good in that regard but still have trouble with their solutions to prevent exploits.

Haven't played SS in years, so I can't remember it exactly. But I think it was pretty god damn hard, not least when the Panzerkleins showed up. Exploiting the system in such a game (with all the broken save games to boot) is perhaps not as problematic as in an easy game like Morrowind.