adrix89
Cipher
Outside of challenge unlocks there are no ideal systems.
As opposed to xp grinding, which no one ever does.
Well, I did specifically cite Acrobatics as a poor implementationI think his point is that you have to do senseless stuff. I mean, grinding is senseless, but at least it is the basic step of the game. You are purposefully doing something less interesting to get XP, but what you are doing is still basically what you would be otherwise doing if you weren't grinding. While in Daggerfall you might go everywhere running and jumping like an idiot in order to boost those skills.
I'm into it. I reject that that is a necessary component of LBD, just like it's not a necessary component of xp systems. Raising skills in Jagged Alliance was certainly fun and completely doable without grinding or resorting to Sawyer's "degenerate" behavior. I found Skyrim's system to be perfectly fun and intuitive and never once was tempted to backstab an immortal NPC. Wizardry 8 (though a hybrid system) delivered a great deal of satisfaction from raising skills simply by playing the game. And so on.Ok, but by senseless, I meant that you would do things in game that you don't actually find fun (sorry, that wasn't a good use of the word).
Well, I did specifically cite Acrobatics as a poor implementationI think his point is that you have to do senseless stuff. I mean, grinding is senseless, but at least it is the basic step of the game. You are purposefully doing something less interesting to get XP, but what you are doing is still basically what you would be otherwise doing if you weren't grinding. While in Daggerfall you might go everywhere running and jumping like an idiot in order to boost those skills.
In Jagged Alliance, if you want to get better at medicine, you heal lots of people. In Wasteland, if you want to get better at picking locks, you break into lots of buildings. In an xp system, if you want to get better at healing wounds or picking locks, ... you farm boars. Which is "senseless"?
Maybe you should just stop thinking about its systems, which are not good ; Morrowind is a masterpiece because of its content : the world is undisputed if you combine its coherency, its size, its lore, its wildlife, its architecture, its NPCs, its factions (their background is very informed), ect. Several quests are good. The visuals are great, the music is great. That's only my opinion, and I'm generally a system fag who also like games which get to the point and do not bother with a lore and/or only use a generic Forgotten Realms(-inspired) setting.It's funny...I used to love Morrowind, but the more I think of that game, the more I detest it.
Sharpen your pitchforks people. I thought Skyrim's system worked great. I never had to resort to exploits to feel that my characters' growth was commensurate with the amount of exercise they got with any given skill.Has there ever been a LBD game where every skill increases at an appropriate level?
Every game I can think of with such a system there was at least one skill with terrible growth balance you had to get "degenerate" to increase.
Grinding all skills at once doing the main thing in the game is a very different kettle of fish than is asking them to go off and grind each skill one at time by doing something they don't want to do and that doesn't progress the game and has nothing to do with how people learn or act in normal life. It's one of the fastest ways to lead non-autists to abject boredom and turning off the game. It's kind of famous for it.As opposed to xp grinding, which no one ever does.
Well, I did specifically cite Acrobatics as a poor implementationI think his point is that you have to do senseless stuff. I mean, grinding is senseless, but at least it is the basic step of the game. You are purposefully doing something less interesting to get XP, but what you are doing is still basically what you would be otherwise doing if you weren't grinding. While in Daggerfall you might go everywhere running and jumping like an idiot in order to boost those skills.
In Jagged Alliance, if you want to get better at medicine, you heal lots of people. In Wasteland, if you want to get better at picking locks, you break into lots of buildings. In an xp system, if you want to get better at healing wounds or picking locks, ... you farm boars. Which is "senseless"?
You're describing horrible implementation, not a horrible system. No game "asks you" to go pick 200 practice locks in town before going to a dungeon and picking the lock there. People who grind in unfun ways because they feel they have to max all their skills before playing the game are just idiots.Grinding all skills at once doing the main thing in the game is a very different kettle of fish than is asking them to go off and grind each skill one at time by doing something they don't want to do and that doesn't progress the game and has nothing to do with how people learn or act in normal life. It's one of the fastest ways to lead non-autists to abject boredom and turning off the game. It's kind of famous for it.As opposed to xp grinding, which no one ever does.
Sharpen your pitchforks people. I thought Skyrim's system worked great. I never had to resort to exploits to feel that my characters' growth was commensurate with the amount of exercise they got with any given skill.Has there ever been a LBD game where every skill increases at an appropriate level?
Every game I can think of with such a system there was at least one skill with terrible growth balance you had to get "degenerate" to increase.
Agreed. The problems with Skyrim's skills and leveling lay elsewhere than the LBD system itself. The removal of the attributes (without at the very least incorporating what they actually DO into skills, which perhaps would have overcome the multiplier problem that was the real crux from a role-playing standpoint). Too many actions without a correspending skill (in my dream RPG, there would not only be many more game mechanics outside of combat, but everything would be tied to a skill), too fast skill increases, and no real barrier to increasing everything to high levels.
In Jagged Alliance, if you want to get better at medicine, you heal lots of people. In Wasteland, if you want to get better at picking locks, you break into lots of buildings. In an xp system, if you want to get better at healing wounds or picking locks, ... you farm boars. Which is "senseless"?
*Cough* BLACKSMITHING *Cough*Sharpen your pitchforks people. I thought Skyrim's system worked great. I never had to resort to exploits to feel that my characters' growth was commensurate with the amount of exercise they got with any given skill.Has there ever been a LBD game where every skill increases at an appropriate level?
Every game I can think of with such a system there was at least one skill with terrible growth balance you had to get "degenerate" to increase.
Agreed. The problems with Skyrim's skills and leveling lay elsewhere than the LBD system itself. The removal of the attributes (without at the very least incorporating what they actually DO into skills, which perhaps would have overcome the multiplier problem that was the real crux from a role-playing standpoint). Too many actions without a correspending skill (in my dream RPG, there would not only be many more game mechanics outside of combat, but everything would be tied to a skill), too fast skill increases, and no real barrier to increasing everything to high levels.
Grinding all skills at once doing the main thing in the game is a very different kettle of fish than is asking them to go off and grind each skill one at time by doing something they don't want to do and that doesn't progress the game and has nothing to do with how people learn or act in normal life. It's one of the fastest ways to lead non-autists to abject boredom and turning off the game. It's kind of famous for it.As opposed to xp grinding, which no one ever does.
*Cough* BLACKSMITHING *Cough*
Well, either you don't consider crafting hundreds of daggers and bracers to be grindy/exploitative, or your smithing skill never got high enough to do jack shit. The smithing system in Skyrim is entirely balanced on the premise that you'll buy out the entire stock of the cheapest ores you can skill off of at smiths, make a million pieces of garbage, and sell them back to repeat the process. If you actually just play naturally, upgrading your gear as you go and buying ore to make better gear instead of explicitly to grind your skill, you'd stop using the skill after the first hour or so because it'd be entirely obsolete compared to the equipment you already have. Perfect example of why LBD doesn't work as a universal system.
You mean like the game that already does all of that and makes the LBD aspect basically pointless because you'll have done everything there is to do before you raise your skills 5% from where they started?Again, this is bad implementation, not bad concept. What I would like to see is a system where all crafting - as well as other things, like mining or reading books - actually causes time to pass. This together with a sleep/hunger mechanic, as well as limited-time-quests and other mechanics that make time a precious commodity, merchants that doesn't infinitely restock, etc., would make it into actual roleplaying.