[deleted]

[laclongquan]

LBD system is just a gimmick that give player illusion of increase more than the fixed increase perlevel up of other system.

If it's limited in how much skills player can grind between level up, it become the same as the other system. But require more fiddling for the same result.

If it's not limited, then it become a cheat, an unbalanced feature.

THat is why system like Fallout's is the best, because it remove all the superfluous reason. You are going to get a certain number of skill points because we assume you are grinding a certain number of skills. Invest them,freely, however you see fit~

As for buying from trainers to increase skill tittle level, it really is the same as getting perk per levelups of Fallout. Just more fiddly~

 

[Zombra]

lol. The only good thing to be said about Fallout's level system is that they probably didn't have to spend too much development time on its thoughtless design. It's a stock, arbitrary xp system just like D&D, except with point buy skills instead of locked character class upgrades. Nothing to write home about.

 

[Roid King]

Leveling is bullshit. It's a stale convention that needs to be questioned, and not blindly accepted just because it's expected of an RPG. In many cases, it's a powerup that gives the player something to long for, justifying repetitive gameplay. How many games would you get bored of it didn't have that big level paradigm at the end of a grind-cycle? It's certainly not realistic, if that's what you're striving for. If a game has a solid skill system with slow and steady gains, and actually fun gameplay that doesn't force you into a grind just for the sake of the level-up at the end of the horizon, no paradigmic crap like that is needed.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

Leveling is bullshit. It's a stale convention that needs to be questioned, and not blindly accepted just because it's expected of an RPG. In many cases, it's a powerup that gives the player something to long for, justifying repetitive gameplay. How many games would you get bored of it didn't have that big level paradigm at the end of a grind-cycle? It's certainly not realistic, if that's what you're striving for. If a game has a solid skill system with slow and steady gains, and actually fun gameplay that doesn't force you into a grind just for the sake of the level-up at the end of the horizon, no paradigmic crap like that is needed.

I enjoyed Guild Wars, which had a small 'level up' system of 20 levels. The majority (read: 90%) of the game was played at max level and the majority of 'progress' that you made in the game was made by customizing your build and either buying or finding the best upgrades for your armor to fit the builds of you and your party. I've played over 2000 hours of the game and I still enjoy it.

 

[Prime Junta]

Leveling is bullshit. It's a stale convention that needs to be questioned, and not blindly accepted just because it's expected of an RPG. In many cases, it's a powerup that gives the player something to long for, justifying repetitive gameplay. How many games would you get bored of it didn't have that big level paradigm at the end of a grind-cycle? It's certainly not realistic, if that's what you're striving for. If a game has a solid skill system with slow and steady gains, and actually fun gameplay that doesn't force you into a grind just for the sake of the level-up at the end of the horizon, no paradigmic crap like that is needed.

Hear hear.

I would like to see more level-less, classless systems.

 

[Telengard]

Leveling is bullshit. It's a stale convention that needs to be questioned, and not blindly accepted just because it's expected of an RPG. In many cases, it's a powerup that gives the player something to long for, justifying repetitive gameplay. How many games would you get bored of it didn't have that big level paradigm at the end of a grind-cycle? It's certainly not realistic, if that's what you're striving for. If a game has a solid skill system with slow and steady gains, and actually fun gameplay that doesn't force you into a grind just for the sake of the level-up at the end of the horizon, no paradigmic crap like that is needed.

A real-real simulator would look this:

Everybody starts with a given set of skills, and nobody learns anything, ever. The end.

Because nobody in an rpg ever does any of the things that actually cause people to learn. They just do the repetitive motion thing. They're just like all those people who chat on Facebook and their smartphone all day, every day for years, but never learn any more about computers but how to turn them on. 'Cept they just swing swords all day, every day, in the exact same way.

LBD and many another system that "makes sense" actually have nothing to do with real life, and aren't even an abstract version of real life - like leveling is. Those kinds of systems are like the ultimate gamist solution to a made-up problem. Very popular though, as long as they remain on paper. Because, once they come off the paper, since they have nothing at all to do with real life, they tend to be very unintuitive to anyone but autists.

 

[nikolokolus]

Chaosium's BRP system that powers games like Call of Cthulhu, Runequest and a bunch of other derivitaves has been doing level-less, skills-that-improve-with-use for almost forty years and it works great in PnP.

How would it work in a CRPG? Pretty well if the developers don't cop out and bolt on some half-assed leveling system and increasing hit points. And of course it's pretty important to allow a variety of approaches to problem solving and conflict resolution aside from combat. It's downside is that it makes a poor murder-hobo simulator.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I always liked the shrine approach in Ultima Underworld. Discovering a mantra, finding a shrine and hoping you had enough XP for the mantra to work... learning what the mantra was for, and going off to see how that benefitted you through gameworld interaction.

 

[deuxhero]

That doesn't mean LBD is a bad idea, it just means it's hard to balance. For every broken Acrobatics or Sneak advancement system there are a dozen skills that increase just fine. Yes, at some point the player can figure out the optimal way to increase any given skill, but this is no different from a player figuring out the optimal way to gain xp/hour. Games have systems and that's OK.

Has there ever been a LBD game where every skill increases at an appropriate level?

Every game I can think of with such a system there was at least one skill with terrible growth balance you had to get "degenerate" to increase.

In most of these, especially those without actual in-game training functions (or where training is limited by something other than money and/or time, like Oblivion/Skyrim's retarded training per level system which completely missed the point of training in Morrowind which was a decent way around these problems and any exploits of were dependent upon easily fixed glitches or breaking the economy first) you also had to get "degenerate" to acquire basic proficiency in: risking your life or important resources when you don't have to just to learn the basics of a skill that's well known in the game world. Jagged Alliance 2's ability to have mercs teach eachother during downtime for free was great (though the skills more than one merc having a decent rank actually mattered for tended to be those that rose the quickest anyways, making it largely moot).

 

[Jools]

Favourite:
buy whatever shit with xp.

Least favourite:
fixed stat increments.

This.

 

[adrix89]

Ultimately leveling and other forms of progression are in one way or another personal character power usually as direct combat power.

In strategy games power resides in its economy, its research and the army that you build.

In the real world outside of money there is also the relationship you have with people that are in a position of power. Status historically has been much more important then brute strength.

Magic can also be much more then just a class that is usually on par with other classes, or the occasional better form of equipment.
In fantasy fiction books magic can have much more intricate systems, limits and restriction for a much more imbalanced amount of power.
Finding how the system works and its weakness to exploit is the story.
The closest to that type of magic in game that I have seen is in Dominion where some spells are game changers.

Levels and skills are all good but in an RPG you can do much more.

 

[Jimmious]

Interesting discussion.
Traditional levelling systems while satisfying, always mildly broke my immersion. I mean, how did my guy learn how to hack better by killing 100 people? Doesn't make sense.

On the other hand learn by doing usually ends up rewarding retarded gameplay ala Morrowind and jumping like an idiot everywhere.

My idea always was that there could be something in the middle, meaning that you would have leveling bonuses to skills you used regularly and minuses to the ones you didn't.
For example if during this level you only shot people, the cost of increasing "Guns" at level up would be much less while the cost of "Science" would be far greater.

Would strike a decent balance I believe, but again would have the risk of players trying to game it by ,for example, using some skill extensively before leveling up to get a bonus

 

[kwanzabot]

I'm not that picky but i prefer systems like fallout 1/2/arcanum over systems like DND based games where it's a random roll that determines how much HP you get

 

[Zombra]

Has there ever been a LBD game where every skill increases at an appropriate level?
Every game I can think of with such a system there was at least one skill with terrible growth balance you had to get "degenerate" to increase.

Sharpen your pitchforks people. I thought Skyrim's system worked great. I never had to resort to exploits to feel that my characters' growth was commensurate with the amount of exercise they got with any given skill.

Wizardry 8 was also fine, although it was a hybrid system so I guess it doesn't count.

Jagged Alliance 1, DG, and 2 were all fine too.

 

[typical user]

Oh yeah I was thinking what leveling system was the best from games I have played so far. Jagged Alliance 2. You get better at things that you actually do but world doesn't scale with you at least with your character sheet but with your progress. It was great to hire Trevor who was VERY skilled rookie and as time would pass by he would demand more and more money. I felt that this guy became more aware how good mercenary he is. It felt natural when he demanded raise after fighting mutated bugs or killing 10 enemies in concentration camp and then disarming a bomb. Or that my IMP character would become good shooter at the end of the game. Or Ira getting really good at training rebels. There was still room for improvements as you could grind certain stats easier or they were progressing really slowly or that experience didn't affect speed at improving them. But it was realistic and I could get dream squad from bunch of pansies that weren't able to hit anything n first missions but their fee was low.

 

[Trashos]

My favorite level-up system is Arcanum's (like others have also mentioned here). You get an insane amount of options to customize your character. You could be a pro in a couple of disciplines or you could be average in more. After 3 full playthroughs with a gunslinger, I am still having fun optimizing my build and making plans for my 4rth.

(it is going to be a gunslinger with full firearms and throwing, full specialization in smithing, 3 levels of electricity, 5 levels of explosives, 1 haggle, 1 melee, 3 persuasion, full dexterity and perception, a few points of strength to wear the feathrweight armor, and the rest in chemistry- fuck mages).

I don't like LBD systems. I prefer more strategic schemes.

 

[deuxhero]

Jagged Alliance 1, DG, and 2 were all fine too.

I distinctly remember it being an utter pain in the ass to level explosives in JA2 because it was so uncommon you'd get the chance to deal with them you'd never increase your skill, and when you did your skill wasn't high enough to have a decent chance of using it without blowing yourself up.

Skyrim had plenty of skills that didn't level up at an acceptable pace.

 

[Roid King]

That doesn't mean LBD is a bad idea, it just means it's hard to balance. For every broken Acrobatics or Sneak advancement system there are a dozen skills that increase just fine. Yes, at some point the player can figure out the optimal way to increase any given skill, but this is no different from a player figuring out the optimal way to gain xp/hour. Games have systems and that's OK.

Has there ever been a LBD game where every skill increases at an appropriate level?

You can also ask if there is an XP game where actual XP gains are not skewed in favor of killing enemies, as opposed to doing everything else you do in the game.

 

[deuxhero]

Any game where all XP gains come from quests and not killing enemies (Deus Ex and Bloodlines being some of the more famous ones, but not the only) absolutely counts.

 

[Roid King]

Leveling is bullshit. It's a stale convention that needs to be questioned, and not blindly accepted just because it's expected of an RPG. In many cases, it's a powerup that gives the player something to long for, justifying repetitive gameplay. How many games would you get bored of it didn't have that big level paradigm at the end of a grind-cycle? It's certainly not realistic, if that's what you're striving for. If a game has a solid skill system with slow and steady gains, and actually fun gameplay that doesn't force you into a grind just for the sake of the level-up at the end of the horizon, no paradigmic crap like that is needed.

A real-real simulator would look this:

Everybody starts with a given set of skills, and nobody learns anything, ever. The end.

Because nobody in an rpg ever does any of the things that actually cause people to learn. They just do the repetitive motion thing. They're just like all those people who chat on Facebook and their smartphone all day, every day for years, but never learn any more about computers but how to turn them on. 'Cept they just swing swords all day, every day, in the exact same way.

LBD and many another system that "makes sense" actually have nothing to do with real life, and aren't even an abstract version of real life - like leveling is. Those kinds of systems are like the ultimate gamist solution to a made-up problem. Very popular though, as long as they remain on paper. Because, once they come off the paper, since they have nothing at all to do with real life, they tend to be very unintuitive to anyone but autists.

I have a sick fascination with the old Microprose game "The legacy". It has a traditional XP system, but no leveling. You gain XP from killing stuff and doing other things, which you can then immediately assign to attributes, skills or individual spells. Health and magic pool are derived from the attributes. I guess the discussion there would be instant vs. delayed gratification, but despite the gains being instant, they are so small that they can hardly be call gratifying at all. No cheap paradigms or powerups. It works well IMO.

 

[Telengard]

It is strangely little-known, but the XP Buy system is as old as RECON and popular as the Storyteller series (World of Darkness).

In game, over time, it does tend to produce min/maxed, one-trick ponies, which is an issue for gameplay. But even so, it remains simple, adaptable to many types of game systems, and has more than a little intuitiveness built into it. 'Course, due to the one-trick-pony syndrome, it does tend to work best where characters are largely fully-powered from the beginning, and only have small gains throughout the game. But since that's my favorite style of game anyways, that works out for me.

There's actually a couple little known system designs out there. But people only ever want the broken LBD or the traditional Level-based. And Storyteller is popular because of storyfags and because it has emo vampires, not for alternative to leveling. So, what are ya gonna do.

 

[Zombra]

But people only ever want the broken LBD

Or, you know, the non-broken LBD.

 

[Alex]

I like the way levels work in old D&D myself. I like how different levels are really different in play. How a 1st level character is a schmuck with nothing to his name, while a level 10 character will probably have a castle and some kind of group (an entire army, a guild of thieves, the believers in a city, a few apprentices) under him. I think the biggest problem with D&D computer games is that this "wargame" approach is completely absent, making things kinda ridiculous.

 

[Telengard]

But people only ever want the broken LBD

Or, you know, the non-broken LBD.

LBD is a special design, whereby the more skills there are, the more boring and unintuitive the gameplay becomes - for non-autists, that is. Because in its essence, what it boils down to is: make a big list of things, and put a checkbox by each one. Then do one of them, check it off. Do it again, check it off again. Do one of the others, check it off. Everything neat and tidy and in its little box and having no relation to real life whatsoever. LBD is like autist/OCD world, the game.

There's nothing wrong with its basic design, it's functional. What's wrong with it is what it makes people do. It makes people act contrary to real life, and contrary to gameplay, by having them do simple tasks that have nothing to do with actual learning, enjoyment, or the overall focus of the game. They have to go off somewhere they don't want to go and do something they don't want to do, and do it repeatedly as if they were a repetitive motion machine, all in order to spit out an incremental gain in one skill. And then they have to go do it for another skill. And another. And another. Until they're so bored, blood starts leaking out of their ears.

'Course, I got to give Bethesduh credit. They just said fuck it, implemented LBD, and then put an utterly broken, meaningless system behind the skills. That way everyone gets the LBD that they ask for, but since the LBD has so has little effect on gameplay, nobody notices how broken and unintuitive it all is since they never actually interact with it in any meaningful way.

 

[Zombra]

As opposed to xp grinding, which no one ever does.