Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Level Design

HoboForEternity

sunset tequila
Patron
Joined
Mar 27, 2016
Messages
9,174
Location
Disco Elysium
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
But hey, who designs vertical levels nowadays in AAA?
Ubisoft does, which is surprising
Even Fallout 4 had heavy vertical level design, it's a common thing in AAA.
Fallout 4's dungeons are actually an improvement over skyrim imo. Skyrim dungeons are the epitome of straight line covered by cheap illusions and easy twist and turn. Skyrim's dungeons are exactly like intestines. They look like they have many turn and twists, but actually, there is only 1 entrance and exit.

Fallout 4 is much better in complexity and natural feel of the place, without making it just a straight line.

That said, both are still shit games.
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
But hey, who designs vertical levels nowadays in AAA?
Ubisoft does, which is surprising
Even Fallout 4 had heavy vertical level design, it's a common thing in AAA.
Fallout 4's dungeons are actually an improvement over skyrim imo. Skyrim dungeons are the epitome of straight line covered by cheap illusions and easy twist and turn. Skyrim's dungeons are exactly like intestines. They look like they have many turn and twists, but actually, there is only 1 entrance and exit.

Fallout 4 is much better in complexity and natural feel of the place, without making it just a straight line.

That said, both are still shit games.
Skyrim dungeons were typically composed of relatively well designed small sections strung together in a completely linear fashion. Sometimes they would loop around above one another permitting shortcuts and exchange of fire.
 

DramaticPopcorn

Guest
Oblivion had best MMO dungeons ever. You follow a single path which eventually leads to the exit :thumbsup:
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
3,524
That's a very broad and simplistic diagram, mostly here to show varying degrees of space usage. The Advanced/Expert fluff is here in relation to architecture complexity, not layout. Another thing is that these are just top-down views that don't represent height variations or any of that stuff. It just can't be properly represented on a 2d plane. You can have a level that's very well made layout-wise with lots of vertical action but looks like #2 and then have a super flat level with a complex arrangement of rooms like #4. In this case #2 will be much more interesting than #4 despite a simpler architecture and space arrangement. But hey, who designs vertical levels nowadays in AAA?

#4 here is perhaps the most 'accurate' representation of what a MP level should be from top view:
CqpV_7pWcAAsR1E.jpg:large


Can someone explain to me how it is intermediate level to physically build the level and expert level to draw "flow" circles. This looks like an attempt to baffle through oversimplification
 

skacky

3D Realms
Developer
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,506
Location
The City
It's not simply drawing flow circles, it's making the level using these flow circles as a design goal, which the intermediate level doesn't do. And yes, doing that is way harder than it seems. You can make your level with flow circles and stuff rather easily, but if it's randomly done your level will suck. Why do you think Quake or CS players have been playing the same maps over and over again for more than a decade?
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
3,524
He doesn't look bad at designing levels based on his website, he's just no good at explaining it

Multiplayer map design is by nature more boring than singleplayer map design anyway, so I think we should redirect the discussion towards singleplayer level design.

And I think level design like a lot of similar disciplines that have a rough blend of science and art, the more you analyse it, the worse your results
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,350
Location
Lusitânia
:necro:

This thread needs more love. Level Design is something not very much talked about (even here), despite being extremely important.

Some cool levels:

Dark Souls

While I don't think most individual locations in DS are good, if we consider it's entire game world as a whole dungeon then we have some cool shit:

serveimage


qcTCC6a.jpg


OJOTOUB.jpg



Of course there are good levels. The best ones being...


map14_catacombs_en.gif


map23_thedukesarchives_en.gif


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


map16_paintedworldariamis_en.gif


This one is one of the best because, it was the first area they developed and tested the game in.

serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


map06_thedepths_en.gif


Depths.png


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


map07_blighttown_en.gif


serveimage


blighttown_by_emelart-d8fg7z5.jpg


serveimage


sen_s_fortress_by_samsa1909-d60x6uj.png


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


I kinda wish they had put a puzzle or anther type of mental challenge in this level.


Dark Souls II

This game gets a lot of shit from everyone (specially the fans). Most levels are bad or just forgetable. However mechanically speaking this one is the best of the trilogy, and the levels that are good, are pretty damn good (specially the DLC's that have the best levels in the Soulsborne series).

I could only find maps in Japanese for this one, though.

Forest of Fallen Giants (great first level; good exploration; nice challenges; 2 Bosses)

map03_forestoffallengiant.png


No-man's Wharf (it's a dark area with good enemy placement and one of the best bosses of the game IMO)

map06_nomanswharf.png


serveimage


52d64ca911464dec0fdeabe6666182f7.jpg


serveimage


no-mans-wharf_map_byCBrandt




The Lost Bastille

map07_lostbastille.png


the_lost_bastille_by_ashlerb-d8g6zu2.jpg


468px-Nmw.PNG


Starting area for those who come from No-Man's Warf Ship (the other starting location is from the 2nd Boss of the Forrest of Fallen Giants).

iwzGPp8.jpg


1451275219-dark-souls-tm-ii-scholar-of-the-first-sin-20151013034229.png


This area has however a problem with Bonfire placement.


Earthen Peak (feels like a proper dungeon, with traps and 2 bosses - the first one being also one of the best in the game)

map13_earthenpeak.png


serveimage


serveimage


The Gutter (DSII Blighttown, but with better atmosphere - and design IMO)

map17_thegutter.png


serveimage



Now the DLC's. Starting with the best: Crown of the Sunken King

Shulva, Sanctum City

map101_shulvasanctumcity.png


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


Dragon's Sanctum

map102_dragonssanctrum.png


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


serveimage


Crown of the Old Iron King (most difficult areas in any Soulsborne games)

serveimage


03Untouchedfrontier_1407487732-Copy.jpg


06centralshaft1407487735jpg-ed5f45_1280w.jpg


DarkSouls2DLC2Review-Image1-711x400.jpg


serveimage


The biggest problem of the DLC's are these areas that are almost require the player to use Co-Op because they are filled with trash mobs. Fortunately they are optional.

serveimage


This DLC has easily one of the best Bosses in the SoulsBorne series. That is Sir Alonne (even tough is concept being pretty much Samurai Artorias).

maxresdefault.jpg


It also has what is IMO the hardest Boss in the series. Fume Knight.

050571.jpg



Crown of the Ivory King

Frozen Eleum Loyce


map301_frozeneleumloyce.png


serveimage


serveimage


latest


Frigid Outskirts.

serveimage

Found this one a few days ago. Love it...

Khazad-dûm. Better known as Moria.

lfho4lJ.jpg


Moria's floors:

vesDZDW.png

Zelda games have some great dungeons with spectacular puzzles as well.


6jELg2q.jpg


LegendOfZelda-OcarinaOfTime-Future-SpiritTemple(Side).jpg


serveimage


Majora's Mask Stone Tower Temple:

serveimage


serveimage


This dungeon also as an excellent Theme:



Shit Zelda games migh have the best Dungeon Themes.









A complete mess...

X5kgK5O.jpg


(if you look closely you can see that it repeats certain areas)
 
Last edited:

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,226

Sums up modern game design conventions entirely: realism obsession, even when it's hardly necessary (i.e multiplayer). Are they completely ignorant of the advantages of abstraction? Do they seriously think every game should have a strong sense of realism? I return to old games specifically because of their embrace of abstraction.
 

frajaq

Erudite
Joined
Oct 5, 2017
Messages
2,380
Location
Brazil
If I had to choose a game with good level design that would probably be Dishonored 1, unfortunately part of it is completely ruined by the OP Outsider powers
 
Self-Ejected

vivec

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
1,149
Level design has to deal with two different ideas:

Having more than one path.
Having each of that path mechanically different.

i.e. if you create two paths but going through either of them involves exactly the same shit e.g. killing 10 million aliens or talking through one with a <intimidate check> and other with <persuation check> then the multiple paths have achieved nothing. Deus ex had the right idea. One path was for the talker, other for the fighter and the third for the stealther. Now, that's a good design.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,226
Deus ex had the right idea. One path was for the talker, other for the fighter and the third for the stealther. Now, that's a good design.

Deus Ex doesn't have such binary level design. Rarely is it just a) combat route or b) stealth route. Even rarer still is a path dedicated to talking. Now Deus Ex: Human Revolution, yes that was very binary. Mostly boiled down to you go the obvious way or you crawl through some vents, but that was shit.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,350
Location
Lusitânia
Level design has to deal with two different ideas:

Having more than one path.
Having each of that path mechanically different.

i.e. if you create two paths but going through either of them involves exactly the same shit e.g. killing 10 million aliens or talking through one with a <intimidate check> and other with <persuation check> then the multiple paths have achieved nothing. Deus ex had the right idea. One path was for the talker, other for the fighter and the third for the stealther. Now, that's a good design.
Deus Ex doesn't have such binary level design. Rarely is it just a) combat route or b) stealth route. Even rarer still is a path dedicated to talking. Now Deus Ex: Human Revolution, yes that was very binary. Mostly boiled down to you go the obvious way or you crawl through some vents, but that was shit.

I kind of agree with Vivec, but I think what he said is more of a concern for RPG's.

Since one of the most important features of RPG's is the different number of classes (or roles), these games must be designed with this in mind to allow the players to overcome the game's various obstacules in a way that supports said playstyle (and this is something Deus Ex did right)

Most RPG's only let you play a certain way and that's to kill every obstacule you might encounter. Sometimes they might let you light shealth or talk your way out, but those times are few and far between. And even those different routes most times wield effectivaly the same results as going trough the combat way. Even magic in most rpg's is never more than a fire ball machine gun, few games actually have spells that your meant to use creativily.

While level design can influence this, IMO what really has weight in this, is the overall gameplay systems and mechanics.

Still Vivec, by level design we are talking specifically about the layout, connectivity, the obstacules (and their placement), mental challenges (such as puzzles, riddles, etc) and lastly the aesthetics and atmosphere.
 
Self-Ejected

vivec

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
1,149
Still Vivec, by level design we are talking specifically about the layout, connectivity, the obstacules (and their placement), mental challenges (such as puzzles, riddles, etc) and lastly the aesthetics and atmosphere.

Even in that scenario, the central idea of what I say applies. That each path is different in theme. If one has to be a puzzle and then the other has to be a *different* puzzle or purely combat. If one simply has nodes in the map, then what good is one node compared to the other?
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,083
Location
Bulgaria
System shock 2,Deus ex,Thief games have great level design. Random illogical levels are cool in old school blobers and fps. Good level design heavily depends on the game settings and idea. I always like to see a level shows that people live there. From recent games Kingdom come have great design.
 

ortucis

Prophet
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
2,015
I saw this diagram via Adam Heine's Twitter feed, and it made me sad:
CqFKsxsW8AACHAs.jpg:large


I noticed that the big difference among these is that with each iteration, he has cut down the number of routes through the level. By "expert," there is only a single path through the map. Obviously this is something that everyone has experienced in playing games from the 80s/90s to the present, but I found it pretty interesting to see someone presenting this way (i.e., as an evolution from bad to good, notwithstanding the disclaimer at the top right).

I like how he starts talking about "FPS Multiplayer level" and ends up with Uncharted 4 and "tells a story" in a MP map in the "EXPERT" level. :lol:
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,623
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 and Quake III Arena had my favorite maps in any shooter, ever. Then again, I didn't play many.

Seconding fantadomat 's comment about Thief. It feels natural, real, and mazelike because a place (mansion, cemetery, prison) you've never been to SHOULD feel like a maze.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,661
I've only played Dark Souls 1 but it definitely has some of the best level design I've ever seen.
DJOGamer PT pretty much covered it.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,083
Location
Bulgaria
Dark souls have shitty level design,really can't stand all the fanfaggots. Average action rpg hit their consoles and they loose their mind,and proclaim it best game eva.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
The guy is kinda right on a sense, beginners have a hard time making spaces that look coherent, use well verticality and allow for more complex structures than just boxes connected with corridors but he was too simplistic in there, there is another dimension I noticed on good maps, functionality is more important than looks, sure, a level composed of boxes with corridors connecting them will certainly be better if the level designer made better use of space but a map can look pretty and well designed but its functionality as a gameplay arena can be worse than an amateurish map like #1 and #2 if the designer prioritize looks too much.

In the end, you have limited hours in the day and you plan to design a map, priority number one should be make it fun to fight in it if you don't have the time to refine it to look pretty, a map that looks pretty and is really functional is something hard to do.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom