Legend of Grimrock 2

[adddeed]

And having to eat food was in LoG1 already, they havent added anything.

 

[cvv]

As for the puzzles I don't mind the heavy focus on them I just wish some of the clues were less vague and fewer of them relied on the ol' trial-and-error solution (worst example - the spike pit with five buttons; now, are you supposed to press all of them or just some? And do you have to press them in any particular order? If yes, what order? Trying this while dying all the time and running out of food is annoying and unfun).

You mean in the pit in the sewers, with the note "Follow the leader" lying right next to it?

Oh that was the "Scroll" wasn't it? Fuck, I guess something happened in my brain that allowed me to throw it away without a second look. Lesson - don't do a 12 hour gaming marathon playing till 6 AM when you're not 20 anymore.

 

[Lemming42]

Finally completed the game. Final boss was alright, but I just got lucky against him (one of those fire-elemental things threw a firebomb directly at him and it did about 90 billion damage). I'm kinda tempted to go looking for the True Final Boss™ and Alternate Ending™ but I'd probably burn out before I manged to reach it.

 

[CSM]

As for the puzzles I don't mind the heavy focus on them I just wish some of the clues were less vague and fewer of them relied on the ol' trial-and-error solution (worst example - the spike pit with five buttons; now, are you supposed to press all of them or just some? And do you have to press them in any particular order? If yes, what order? T

Spoiler

There was a scroll that said you had to "follow the leader".

People complaining about puzzles or secrets being opaque just missed a clue most of the times.

 

[cvv]

As for the puzzles I don't mind the heavy focus on them I just wish some of the clues were less vague and fewer of them relied on the ol' trial-and-error solution (worst example - the spike pit with five buttons; now, are you supposed to press all of them or just some? And do you have to press them in any particular order? If yes, what order? T

Spoiler

There was a scroll that said you had to "follow the leader".

People complaining about puzzles or secrets being opaque just missed a clue most of the times.

Missed that one allright but Path of the Eagle or the cemetery gate one were nasty as fuck (Path of the Eagle drove me halfway through to the nuthouse).

 

[Unkillable Cat]

We've talked about those two puzzles extensively. The cemetary gate one IS obnoxious due to its vagueness and convulated "path of solution", but while I had no trouble with the Path of the Eagle puzzle I can understand people that did have trouble with it.

In playing various LoG1 mods, I've come across my fair share of obnoxious puzzles, including several that work on the same principal as the Path of the Eagle/Path of the Disguised - walk along an invisible bridge using only trial and error to determine your next step.

The LoG devs saw this, so they includes some extra hints, though they are subtle. The Path of the Eagle follows the elevated walkway that starts from your end, leaving you with only a few steps more to cross successfuly, while the Path of the Disguised is marked by the floor underneath it being different than the rest. I missed that hint and stubbornly stumbled through the second half of the puzzle by trial and error - though my prior experience was very handy here.

 

[Melan]

In playing various LoG1 mods, I've come across my fair share of obnoxious puzzles, including several that work on the same principal as the Path of the Eagle/Path of the Disguised - walk along an invisible bridge using only trial and error to determine your next step.

On that note, any Grimrock 1 level packs to recommend? Once I finish Grimrock 2, I'll go back to the first game (maybe do a run in Toorum mode? that was pretty fun on the first two levels), and after that I'd like to try a mod or two.

I prefer full map packs over single maps, and don't like heavy puzzles that much (in fact, this is one of the areas I am not as happy with GR2 as GR1 - the huge scaling up of difficulty, which was just fine in GR1).

 

[cvv]

any Grimrock 1 level packs to recommend? Once I finish Grimrock 2, I'll go back to the first game

I just did that yesterday, got myself the Master Quest mod and it's really great. It's basically a jazzed up original, with harder monsters bigger levels, moar secrets and loot, etc.

I've also checked out Jewtube for the Dungeon Master 1 remake and at a glance it looks bretty good. I haven't played DM in ages and now I'm positively bursting to give it a spin after I finish the Master Quest.

 

[Melan]

Thanks!

Aaaaaand what do you know, Master Quest was made by none else but Komag, the prolific Thief fan mission author. It is a small world!

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Melan I did a couple of short reviews for some LoG1 mods in the LoG1 thread, but I'll requote myself to give you the rundown:

1: The Master Quest: The standard campaign on + difficulty. I recommend playing this for anyone who's completed the standard campaign. Some things will feel familiar, other things will have you scratching your head. It's also the most beautiful Grimrock mod I've seen so far.

2: The Master Key: Ten levels packed full of content. You must find the Master Key to open the door behind you and escape. Just the first floor has a couple of hours worth of content.

3: The Mine of Malan Vael: Only one setting and one task, but it's done masterfully. Good writing, clever puzzles, well worth playing.

4: Forbidden Halls: One of the older dungeons available, but of surprisingly good quality. Some of the later puzzles will make you rage, though.

5. Master Arakk's Treasure: This one seems to pack a mixture of really clever things with...not so clever things.

6: The Chaos Key: The 'sequel' to The Master Key. It's tougher and has more content, but it's also badly paced and the puzzles early on will probably drive people away. Playing this one with a fresh party is only for the experts.

Other mods I've played I felt were not worth the trouble, but check out the LoG1 thread (from page 43+) if you want to know more.

 

[Castanova]

I actually like this game less than the first one, which I thought was impossible given the enhancements made to it. The first one was a self-contained, simple but charming game. The second one feels like they added a bunch of frills to it without really doing anything to improve the core mechanics. The character system is more complex but not in an interesting way. There are more puzzles but several of them are irritating. The enemies are more dangerous to dance around but you still have to dance around them and the fundamental design of clicking your weapon icons is still stubbornly retro. The spell selection is still uninspiring and casting is still annoying.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I actually like this game less than the first one, which I thought was impossible given the enhancements made to it.
...
and the fundamental design of clicking your weapon icons is still stubbornly retro.

Could you give an example of how, in your opinion, they should have done it right?

 

[bloodlover]

I actually like this game less than the first one, which I thought was impossible given the enhancements made to it.
...
and the fundamental design of clicking your weapon icons is still stubbornly retro.

Could you give an example of how, in your opinion, they should have done it right?

Make it turn based.

 

[Castanova]

Hotkeys would be a start. That being said, the idea of figuring out how to fundamentally fix combat in a real-time party-based blobber is too much to handle without a few more cups of coffee.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Hotkeys would be a start. That being said, the idea of figuring out how to fundamentally fix combat in a real-time party-based blobber is too much to handle without a few more cups of coffee.

Play Eye Of the Beholder 3. Note the "hotkey" they implemented for attacking. Note how completely irrelevant combat becomes as a result.

The same applies for the spells. An integral part of playing games like these is that you must spend time making the attacks and casting the spells. I agree that the spell interface in LoG2, while being an improvement over LoG1, is still annoying, but at least it follows the design for these games.

 

[Castanova]

Hotkeys would be a start. That being said, the idea of figuring out how to fundamentally fix combat in a real-time party-based blobber is too much to handle without a few more cups of coffee.

Play Eye Of the Beholder 3. Note the "hotkey" they implemented for attacking. Note how completely irrelevant combat becomes as a result.

The same applies for the spells. An integral part of playing games like these is that you must spend time making the attacks and casting the spells. I agree that the spell interface in LoG2, while being an improvement over LoG1, is still annoying, but at least it follows the design for these games.

Understood. I guess that's why I preferred the short and sweet dosage of the first game rather than this sequel which seems to attempt to put lipstick on a pig.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

...this sequel which seems to attempt to put lipstick on a pig.

:D

 

[Melan]

Melan I did a couple of short reviews for some LoG1 mods in the LoG1 thread, but I'll requote myself to give you the rundown:

Thank you! This will come handy, and I'll check out the longer reviews as well.

While I haven't finished the game yet, so my impressions are still subject to change, I think Casanova has a point. Not about the controls (they are part of the genre), but about the game's scope. GR1 is a perfect, focused dungeon-crawler. GR2 tries to turn it into a larger-scale, more epic experience, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So far, the dungeons have felt more tightly designed than the wilderness; the local info snippets are more interesting than the larger story the authors are trying to tell; and the core experience is better than additions like the wound system, which is an out of place dose of realism in a game that's not realistic. It is a very enjoyable game, especially in the modern era, but it feels like a hybrid between two genres that doesn't work as perfectly as the original Grimrock. Even lame final level notwithstanding (which was already an attempt to shoehorn epic content into a consciously low-key skeletons-and-giant-snails game).

 

[cvv]

I think Casanova has a point. Not about the controls (they are part of the genre), but about the game's scope. GR1 is a perfect, focused dungeon-crawler. GR2 tries to turn it into a larger-scale, more epic experience, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

LoG1 was fantastic but the constant walls got a bit dreary after a while. For me the more colourful LoG2 works brillianty. But I guess a lot of people played LoG1 as a puzzle game and didn't care that much about the RPG element. Those will not be happy if AH takes the game further into the fullblown RPG direction.

Me? I'd be delighted if AH took the EoB licence from whatever cold, dead hands are grasping it and made a sequel MMX style. Anyway, can't really see where can they take the "simple, straightforward dungeon crawler" concept further without making it less puzzle and more RPG.

 

[Metro]

I don't think there's anywhere to take it but in that direction. That is, if you're actually going to attempt to expand/improve versus just making another chapter in the series. I'm thinking they take a step closer to a party based Arx since it's pretty obvious Arkane doesn't give a fuck about that genre... or at least their paymasters don't.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Ok... Ending question. Did anyone get it without looking up the answer?

Spoiler

I'm sorry, but where in the game is the "Balance" spell / rune mentioned? As in, where does it actually say, this middle rune is balance and can be cast as a spell? I knew it did something from random pressing but didn't find anything in game and casting it did "nothing" and didn't reveal it as a spell.

I did find the clue about standing where the "elements are in equilibrium" and I also found the clue that said "back yonder, when shit was in equilibrium, there was only void"...

... and there I am standing in the map called void thinking I'm on to something.

I also found the clue about "only the most balanced spell" opens the way or some-such... So there I am casting Dispel because derp, it requires 1 of each element.

I either missed something, or is this is vague as fuck and requires some kind of out-of-game knowledge?

 

[Pope Amole II]

Ok... Ending question. Did anyone get it without looking up the answer?

It's explained in the manual and in the manual only.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Wait, this thing came with a manual? You mean beyond the basic instruction screen?

Fucking Steam extras.

 

[Melan]

It's explained in the manual and in the manual only.

Pretty appropriate for an old-schhol game. :D RTFM!

Wait, this thing came with a manual? You mean beyond the basic instruction screen?

Fucking Steam extras.

It was also available in the GOG download. [edit]Yup, there it is on my GOG page.[/edit]

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I haven't seen hide nor hair of any manual for this game, especially on Steam. Can anyone point me to the manual there?

There's a stone head in the hamlet map (NW) that mentions that the captain spent time trying to figure out the spell to reach the fifth shrine, and that he concluded that it was the "simplest and most balanced of spells".

It isn't a giant feat of logic to conclude that a spell using only the center rune would fit the bill.