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Legend of Grimrock 2

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Just finished the game.

The game is very good however towards the end my enjoyment has declined because of retarded puzzles. I don't know but in a couple of instances I found the secrets to be more "straightforward" than the main path. For example, the water shrine entrance puzzle was ... :retarded:

What I found objectionable about this puzzle was how it was forced to be done late in the game. In order to get the answer you must first get into the Archives, then get into the cemetery, then find the clue there. For a game that promotes freedom of movement, this is a bad thing.

Additionally there are a couple of things which pissed me off:
- Fire magic damage is insane compared to the rest of magic schools.
- There is no Healing spell in the game (!?)
- Earth magic has like 3 spells. Not enough in my opinion.
- Air elements can be destroyed only by casting Dispell (!?)
- Grenade usage is cumbersome - they basically take the shield position and that's not good.
- Found only one full armor set - Rogue. The rest, I don't know. Found like 3 pieces from each one.
- The best light weapon is like 2 minutes before the last boss. On the other hand, I had like 5~7 good Heavy weapons. And my fighter was doing damage nowhere near what the Barbarian was doing.
- Barren Desert was borderline trolling.

Agreed on the "balance" of magic. Fire magic rules supreme, the others suck by comparison.

The reason there is no Healing spell is because there shouldn't be one. There wasn't one in LoG1 either. Besides the very generous health regeneration, the game assumes that You brew your own healing potions. The game also gives you some VERY powerful healing items besides potions. [Dealwithit.jpg]

Air Elementals only being affected by one rare damage type is a dick move.

Grenade usage is supposed to be cumbersome because they can easily turn the tide in a battle. [Dealwithit.jpg]

Best light weapon 2 minutes before last boss? There is NOTHING 2 minutes before the last boss. The 2 best light weapons are in the Pyramid.

Barren Desert? Trolling? You were at the top of a pyramid, in a room called "Ceremonial chamber" which had been devoid of enemies before, you open up a teleporter and mummies start pouring out. What exactly about this did NOT tell you "Boss fight" or at least "tough fight" ahead? I found this fight to be a wonderful change of pace, something like this hasn't been seen in Grimrock (or any other similar game) before. [Dealwithit.jpg]

As for the skills in LoG1 - AH realized that the skill system in LoG1 wasn't that good because you could, quite easily, spend all 4 skill points and not gain ANYTHING. So they simplified it so that every skill increase yields some improvement, with some milestones yielding greater improvements than others. It also restricted the classes to certain (stereotypical) roles, which is not the case in LoG2.
 

Jaedar

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Barren desert is very cool. I am especially impressed at how the game doesn't chug at all despite the strain.

There are 2 things that can hurt air elementals
Dispel, and the ethereal blade, which is found in the cemetary.
 

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I really liked the water shrine entrance puzzle. That one, plus the "spot a secret path in the air" puzzle, were the only two I found really memorable/creative.
 

adddeed

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- puzzle, puzzle, puzzle, PUZZLE, PUZZLE, PUUUZZZZLLLLEEE, PUUUZZZZLLLLEEE... ok, enough already. Each level has so, so many. Underwater hidden buttons? Sure, why not. Less an RPG and more a puzzle simulator
.
I like that. Most RPGs are combat combat, fetch quest, combat combat. LoG are puzzle heavy and thats good.
 

toro

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The reason there is no Healing spell is because there shouldn't be one. There wasn't one in LoG1 either. Besides the very generous health regeneration, the game assumes that You brew your own healing potions. The game also gives you some VERY powerful healing items besides potions. [Dealwithit.jpg]
Obviously I dealt with it but I still want my healing spell.

Best light weapon 2 minutes before last boss? There is NOTHING 2 minutes before the last boss. The 2 best light weapons are in the Pyramid.
It seems not in the vanilla version: Sickle Sword is actually found in the Castle Library but after patch they put it in the Pyramid.
 

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Well, some of the loot IS randomized. A sickle sword can always be found in the Pyramid, but I had more than one at the end of the game.
 

Pope Amole II

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It seems not in the vanilla version: Sickle Sword is actually found in the Castle Library but after patch they put it in the Pyramid.

The Sickle Sword is not the best light weapon - best are the Bonesword & Sabre. Sabre deals 16% or so less damage than the Sickle, but has a 3.3 cooldown instead of a 4.3 one. It also has the same triple slash special. Bonesword has 3.4. In the hands of a barbarian (who is the best STR-based light weapons) both are much stronger than the sickle. Both can also be found around level 5-6-7.
 

toro

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It seems not in the vanilla version: Sickle Sword is actually found in the Castle Library but after patch they put it in the Pyramid.

The Sickle Sword is not the best light weapon - best are the Bonesword & Sabre. Sabre deals 16% or so less damage than the Sickle, but has a 3.3 cooldown instead of a 4.3 one. It also has the same triple slash special. Bonesword has 3.4. In the hands of a barbarian (who is the best STR-based light weapons) both are much stronger than the sickle. Both can also be found around level 5-6-7.

Best STR based light-sword: Bear Form Claws :D
 

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More reviews: http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/114650-legend-of-grimrock-ii-reviews-3.html

We begin with GameSpot, where they've given the dungeon crawler a 9/10:

Legend of Grimrock II is similar to one of its many well-designed riddles: While solving it may be a long, arduous process, approaching each obstacle with newfound understanding and hearing the victorious click of gears finally turning gives you a feeling of profound pride and accomplishment. Legend of Grimrock II is another glorious glimpse of the past, a window to a genre dead and buried and brought back to life with care and respect, and I urge you to peek through it.

Hardcore Games gives it a 92%:

And delight is a good word for my experience here. I delighted in the way the island asked me to painstakingly reconstruct its mythical narrative, and how pieces of that narrative were embedded in every aspect of the game. I delighted in its combat system, which clicked for me in a way no RPG combat system has since Mount and Blade: Warband. I delighted in feeling like I was grappling with the mind of a mysterious master in solving the many, many puzzles on offer. But more than delight, I got fear, elation, frustration, even anger out of this game. I loved this game. I hated this game. It’s amazing.

Examiner gives it a 4/5:

While LoG2 has great game design through teaching the player how to play and great level design. It suffers from bad conveyance. There are plenty of times where you are sitting in an area and going “What do I do? Where do I go?”. It really kills the pacing, especially when you are all pumped after looting a tough dungeon. It is still a great game that all RPG fans should at least experience. Fans of old school RPGs will find LoG2's unique take on the genre nostalgic.

The Game Slashers doesn't score it:

Almost Human poured their heart and soul in this game and it shows, Legend of Grimrock 2 is an improvement in any aspect to their previous title and it kept me hooked until the very end. The freedom of movement, the challenging fights, the intelligent puzzles and well hidden secrets, all wrapped up in the mysterious and creepy atmosphere made this game one hell of a gaming pleasure.

Halfbeard's Hud gives it a 4.5/5:

Legend of Grimrock 2 is definitely a worthwhile purchase for any RPG fan, whether you’re into the dungeon crawler sub-genre or not. While it still certainly suffers for some of the bugbears of the genre, its interesting open world and deep character creation and progression makes those niggling issues easy to overlook. It’ll kick your ass repeatedly in your attempts to unravel all of its secrets but it makes receiving those beatings an enjoyable experience.

Film, Games, Etc. gives it a 4.5/5:

‘Legend of Grimrock 2’ is a great example of a well-executed sequel. There are more choices to make in character creation, in combat and in your approach to puzzles. The combat has received a large dose of complexity and energy and is no longer the boring, easy strafe-fest of the original. The puzzles are more devious and thus more rewarding to solve and the game looks even better now that the change in locales has allowed the developers to really showcase their artistic and technical abilities. Expertly paced, cleverly designed and a great amount of fun to unravel; ‘Legend of Grimrock 2’ is a finely crafted toy box of puzzles and combat encounters that has been more rewarding to complete than any RPG I’ve played this year.

And then Giant Bomb does one of their "Quick Look" videos.
 

DarkUnderlord

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What I found objectionable about this puzzle was how it was forced to be done late in the game. In order to get the answer you must first get into the Archives, then get into the cemetery, then find the clue there. For a game that promotes freedom of movement, this is a bad thing.
I can't honestly say freedom of movement is really something I've found. Sure, it's better than the original and the larger world is cool and all, but you're still railed through areas in a reasonably set order based on what you need to open them (and where that's found) or the difficulty of the enemies you encounter there. Most of the puzzles are also quite small, fairly straight-forward and contained within the map you're on. There's no big multi-section puzzle I've found yet (up to Crystal Mines)... Beyond the power gems. Which again, are still mostly self-contained within each area (4 gems near the Fire temple etc...).

I remember click-through adventure games as a kid where I'd get stuck for hours and have no fucking clue what to do. I haven't yet encountered that in LoG 2. Which is either because as an adult, I know how to think through puzzles, or it's because things are relatively simple. One or two areas did trip me up but knowing that things are contained within a room or level really helps (IE: Knowing the solution must be where I am, or nearby - and not a case of me having missed something 15 areas ago).

Also cannon balls should be like throwing knives in that you can pick them up again. Especially for the shitty damage they do considering all the weight.

Still, enjoying the game a lot on normal with the default party.
 

toro

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Also cannon balls should be like throwing knives in that you can pick them up again. Especially for the shitty damage they do considering all the weight.

This is bad. Thank God I rerolled without a firearms specialist.
 

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Also cannon balls should be like throwing knives in that you can pick them up again. Especially for the shitty damage they do considering all the weight.

I recall finding around 70 cannonballs in total. Combined with a cannon that's a load of around 85 kg at least, probably more.
 

DarkUnderlord

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I recall finding around 70 cannonballs in total. Combined with a cannon that's a load of around 85 kg at least, probably more.
Yeah, it's not really that many and it's not really that effective considering the weight. I've got a Minotaur who does 50 - 100 every time he hits, where-as the 4x cannon balls I fired did about 40 dmg, with only one being around the 120 mark. And that's with Lvl 5 Firearms. If you could pick the cannonballs up again, it'd be semi-viable but having to lug the thing around only for a boss battle at some later point is silly. Especially when my shotgun easily does 20 dmg consistently for much less weight per shot.
 

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I went with a Firearms Ratling, and while it felt "cool" to be firing guns, I have heard (but not confirmed myself) that the ol' bow and arrow was doing roughly double the DPS of the arquebus, and the crossbow doing even more.

At least you can farm the gun-wielding ratlings to get more ammo for the guns, but cannonballs seem to be a finite supply.
 

Daemongar

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- puzzle, puzzle, puzzle, PUZZLE, PUZZLE, PUUUZZZZLLLLEEE, PUUUZZZZLLLLEEE... ok, enough already. Each level has so, so many. Underwater hidden buttons? Sure, why not. Less an RPG and more a puzzle simulator
.
I like that. Most RPGs are combat combat, fetch quest, combat combat. LoG are puzzle heavy and thats good.
Well, I just finished the game... and the no more Grimrock Series for me. It has that is fun and good with the first game and some improvements, but I'm just not so sure I'd ever play one of these again... Every level having 5 or 6 puzzles, just staring at the screen and slapping away enemies while working on puzzle after puzzle after puzzle after puzzle. Lots good, but I am just sick of puzzles. Not an RPG but a puzzle simulator. Puzzles.
 

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Hmm...puzzling response, Daemongar ;-)

But in all seriousness, it's a question of what you were expecting from LoG2 to begin with. Some people who bought this were expecting the Big Jump from dungeon crawler to full-fledged RPG with NPCs, dialogue trees and C&C. I think that most, however, were just content to get More of the Same with Extra Sprinkles. On that front LoG2 certainly delivers.

I can get the "too much puzzles" and "fights are too hard" complaints, mainly because besides these two points there is little else to do in LoG2 than exploration and Staring at Scenery. NPC interaction on some level would have been a nice touch, LoG1 user dungeons have shown that it is quite possible, even down to recruitable NPCs, so why the main campaign wasn't used to showcase that is strange.

My suggestion would be this: Shelf the game and come back in a year or so and check out what mods have been released. I'm a big fan of the Grimrock series and I only played once through the main campaign in LoG1, user dungeons saw me through the rest. THAT'S the big appeal of the game for me, the potential fan-made dungeons.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Well, I just finished the game... and the no more Grimrock Series for me. It has that is fun and good with the first game and some improvements, but I'm just not so sure I'd ever play one of these again... Every level having 5 or 6 puzzles, just staring at the screen and slapping away enemies while working on puzzle after puzzle after puzzle after puzzle. Lots good, but I am just sick of puzzles. Not an RPG but a puzzle simulator. Puzzles.
Yeah, gotta say that's why I'm only taking it in an hours or so dose at a time. Combat is either maneuvering backwards into a narrow passageway so that hordes of enemies are blocked and have to attack one-by-one, at which you point you're just standing still and moving your mouse around to click weapons as soon as they've cooled down. Otherwise you're dancing around attacking things from the sides and dodging, with every once and a while running back around a corner and resting to re-heal before having at it again.

But puzzles are cool. The last thing you want is more combat.
 

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Otherwise you're dancing around attacking things from the sides and dodging ..
Invisibility spell is very useful in those frenetic close quarter combats against a bunch of enemies. Helped me a lot in the pyramid, for instance.
 

Cyberarmy

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Otherwise you're dancing around attacking things from the sides and dodging ..
Invisibility spell is very useful in those frenetic close quarter combats against a bunch of enemies. Helped me a lot in the pyramid, for instance.

Also good for creating backstab oppurtinities. I ended up casting only that with my mage after a while.
 

adddeed

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Hmm...puzzling response, Daemongar ;-)

But in all seriousness, it's a question of what you were expecting from LoG2 to begin with. Some people who bought this were expecting the Big Jump from dungeon crawler to full-fledged RPG with NPCs, dialogue trees and C&C. I think that most, however, were just content to get More of the Same with Extra Sprinkles. On that front LoG2 certainly delivers.

I can get the "too much puzzles" and "fights are too hard" complaints, mainly because besides these two points there is little else to do in LoG2 than exploration and Staring at Scenery. NPC interaction on some level would have been a nice touch, LoG1 user dungeons have shown that it is quite possible, even down to recruitable NPCs, so why the main campaign wasn't used to showcase that is strange.

My suggestion would be this: Shelf the game and come back in a year or so and check out what mods have been released. I'm a big fan of the Grimrock series and I only played once through the main campaign in LoG1, user dungeons saw me through the rest. THAT'S the big appeal of the game for me, the potential fan-made dungeons.
Please no NPCs and all that fluff. There are tons of other RPGs with that. The reason i like Grimrock is precisely the fact that it is puzzle heavy, and focused on puzzles and exploration without talking to some annoying NPCs.
 

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I was mostly thinking of NPC "interaction" on the level of Eye of the Beholder, for example. You could meet a character, a paragraph of text appears and you get a short selection of choices (of which 'Attack' is ALWAYS a choice). They could then either talk some more before leaving, or join your party, but then would not bother the player again.

The most NPC interaction in the EOB games is the Dwarven Cleric in the first game who could raise the dead in your party... a talking save crystal, if you will.

Anything more than that would be pushing it, IMO.
 

Daemongar

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Well, I just finished the game... and the no more Grimrock Series for me. It has that is fun and good with the first game and some improvements, but I'm just not so sure I'd ever play one of these again... Every level having 5 or 6 puzzles, just staring at the screen and slapping away enemies while working on puzzle after puzzle after puzzle after puzzle. Lots good, but I am just sick of puzzles. Not an RPG but a puzzle simulator. Puzzles.
Yeah, gotta say that's why I'm only taking it in an hours or so dose at a time. Combat is either maneuvering backwards into a narrow passageway so that hordes of enemies are blocked and have to attack one-by-one, at which you point you're just standing still and moving your mouse around to click weapons as soon as they've cooled down. Otherwise you're dancing around attacking things from the sides and dodging, with every once and a while running back around a corner and resting to re-heal before having at it again.

But puzzles are cool. The last thing you want is more combat.
There is definitely a place for the Grimrock's of the world, just that ... there are puzzles that MUST be solved in order to proceed. There were no alternatives, or flexibility, or any choice. You either solved certain puzzles or went home. Usually your only hint was one sentence. I don't want to get into all the very difficult puzzles. There weren't too many combat encounters that riled me
ok, the SECOND rat boss was a shock, and I didn't figure out the Cemetery puzzle (break the urns) to get to the Ethereal Dagger until I opened Castle Nex and went back to tie up loose ends. That would have made my life better.

Legend of Grimrock 2 is not the type of game you sit down on a Sunday and plow through 8 hours of. The only game I can compare this to besides the obvious LoG1, DM, DM2... is Lands of Lore 2. Had the same feeling - tons of puzzles and mysteries, but never quite certain after leaving an area if that was all there was/I left something important behind...
 

cvv

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I was mostly thinking of NPC "interaction" on the level of Eye of the Beholder, for example.

Yep, or even better, LoG2's spiritual father, Dungeon Master 2. IIRC there were some meaningful NPC, I wanna say some merchants? That would be plenty enough, to buy food, ammo etc.

I'm enjoying this game a ton btw, I just don't have the patience anymore to spend endless hours mulling over a puzzle. Over the years I've developed a particular hate for trial-and-error ones. The one on the 1st floor of the Pyramid is the prime example. After half-hour I gave up and grabbed the walkthrough. I don't like the idea of food either, imo it's stupid to make the player economize the amount of movement in a game that's all about walking back and forth and trying shit.
 

adddeed

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There is definitely a place for the Grimrock's of the world, just that ... there are puzzles that MUST be solved in order to proceed. There were no alternatives, or flexibility, or any choice. You either solved certain puzzles or went home. .
And this is bad because...?
 

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DM2 and its merchants are the maximum I am willing to accept NPC-wise in these games.

Also for the people complaining about too many puzzles: it might be just me, but I have always viewed RT dungeon crawlers as puzzle games first, with the combat being a sorta additional minigame, often a puzzle in disguise. The LoG2 combat:puzzles ratio is IMHO perfect.
 

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