Legend of Grimrock 2 Party Compositions

[Blaine]

Would be more useful than RPGWeaboodex.

Not gonna happen as long as Crooked Bee is an admin.

Besides, there's far more Japanese AAA (or semi-AAA; their gaming industry is more stratified than in the West, where almost every game is either a shilled blockbuster or unknown indie) incline than Western AAA, as long as you don't mind cutesy anime themes.

 

[Greatness]

Because the large part of the game is situated in the narrow corridors that actually disallow waltzing? Especially when another "you take the gem/push the switch/whatever and tons of monsters surround you" occurs - there are tons of situations where you are forced to stand and fight. And it's not that defensive - both Battle Mage & Knight will be constantly useful in combat.

Even in narrow corridors I was rarely standing there trading blows. In the few scenarios where you're forced to sit and tank, the extra killing speed might mean you lose less HP overall anyways, and there's always potions which can turn pretty much any fight into a cakewalk.

That would've been worth it if high energy pool in this game were achievable. Since they're not, everything is very expensive and, by the end of the game, your battle mage is not a damage dealer but a source of crowd control (which you don't need to recast that often), the quick does very little for the casters. And 5% is not 3% at all - the more protection you have, the more effective you become, so by the end of the game it's gonna be at least 10% extra survivability (often higher). Not to mention the much easier early game (which, in this game, is as hard as the late).

I don't really know exactly how protection damage reduction is calculated, but is (say crystal armor+shield) 139 vs 144 really a 10+% increase in total survivability? At what point do diminishing returns kick in? If not Quick then perhaps Evasive(+5% evasion) or Tough(+20 health) might be more efficient here. Also, what is your mage using to crowd control? Force Field, Blind, Bombs? I think there's enough energy potions available that the energy pool isn't all that much of a concern.

Once again, the more evasion & protection you have, the more effective they become. It's not just 5 evasion, it's not just 5 protection. And you're not accounting that Dexterity, as an attribute, is much superior to the strength - you're gaining extra evasion & accuracy from it, hence more survivability and no need to invest in the Accuracy skill. It's quite obvious that you dump all the crystal flowers into your dual-wielder knight.

Well if you're dual-wielding your not even getting the shield bonus, so it's a trade of +1/lvl prot vs 20+(3/lvl) health and of dex vs str. These things are hard to theorize since evasion/protection/health are all dependant on each other and on enemy accuracy/damage/type/speed, whilst dex's lower dmg/faster weapons vs str's higher damage/slower weapons are highly dependant on the enemies' protection threshold. In my experience it seems that enemy protection plays a pretty big factor and my harder hitting but slower damage dealers usually come out ahead, the +100% damage increase from weapon skill only affecting base weapon damage might have something to do with this, but also the nature of the combat system favours slower weapons as well. Dex users not being able to benefit from Rage potions also hurts a lot for the few fights that really matter.

Because 90 resistance is more than five times better than 40? And the damage increase is insignificant - the Minotaur with 5 skulls (because that's what you have through most of the game) will have 7.5 damage over the lizard. Considered we're fighting 300+ hp monsters constantly, that's nothing.

Well it's a fighter so it has a good HP pool and it's in the back row so it isn't going to be taking all that much damage, of which it'll still be 40% resistant to, so I just thought maybe the extra damage would be useful. You're right though the damage increase is pretty meh compared to the resistances, it just comes down to how often the resistances will actually matter or not, the strength will at least be useful in every attack you do for the entire game, and since it's a fighter getting multiplied by 10x from the scythe helps a bit.

Because throwing deals more damage than missile even without special attacks spam? I dunno how you calculated the dps here. And Bear form abuse should be done with a properly built battlemage.

I didn't mean missile does more damage than throwing, just that it would let you set up sneak attacks with Sleep Darts, since your main damage source is a light weapons user. And what makes Battle Mage so good at Bear Form? He only gets 1 more energy per level, which is nothing compared to the extra potions the alchemist gets.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Even in narrow corridors I was rarely standing there trading blows. In the few scenarios where you're forced to sit and tank, the extra killing speed might mean you lose less HP overall anyways, and there's always potions which can turn pretty much any fight into a cakewalk.

That's very arguable. And tanky characters are generally better recipients for the potions - there are much more attack-boosting potions than there are defensive ones.

I don't really know exactly how protection damage reduction is calculated, but is (say crystal armor+shield) 139 vs 144 really a 10+% increase in total survivability? At what point do diminishing returns kick in? If not Quick then perhaps Evasive(+5% evasion) or Tough(+20 health) might be more efficient here. Also, what is your mage using to crowd control? Force Field, Blind, Bombs? I think there's enough energy potions available that the energy pool isn't all that much of a concern.

As far as I can tell, it's just a simple subtraction. At least it seems so. If that's true, there's no diminishing returns. And evasive isn't that good on the battlemage as you won't be pumping up his evasion that much. Crowd control is force field and darkness.

Well it's a fighter so it has a good HP pool and it's in the back row so it isn't going to be taking all that much damage, of which it'll still be 40% resistant to, so I just thought maybe the extra damage would be useful. You're right though the damage increase is pretty meh compared to the resistances, it just comes down to how often the resistances will actually matter or not, the strength will at least be useful in every attack you do for the entire game, and since it's a fighter getting multiplied by 10x from the scythe helps a bit.

It's certainly useful in the trickster fights, for example, who on hard can easily fry your entire party in 2 or 3 bombs thrown (so you have to dodge flawlessly). And against those early cold elementals. And against the poison everywhere, especially in the final areas. And those blobs of ooze can be really nasty. And, generally, a crit from the scythe does so much that you don't care about 40 extra damage.

I didn't mean missile does more damage than throwing, just that it would let you set up sneak attacks with Sleep Darts, since your main damage source is a light weapons user. And what makes Battle Mage so good at Bear Form? He only gets 1 more energy per level, which is nothing compared to the extra potions the alchemist gets.

Blowpipe is cute, but it's only really useful in the Hamlet of Stormreach (though it's great there). Like, 2/3rds of the enemies are either immune to it or the areas are just too backstab unfriendly. And, all in all, there's a lot of ways to setup the backstabs so that's not the biggest problem ever. And battle mage makes a good bear because he's survivable enough to be tanky and take lots of incoming hits (which is something you want on your damage dealer) and, also, he doesn't need that much skill points to be useful. 3 concentration (maybe with 1 fire if you have no other casters) still makes him a decent crowd controller. So you put 3 points into light weapons and you have 7-8 skillpoints for the defensive measures - pretty much 5 armor + 3 dodge. I call the archetype a bugbear as it is best with the Quick+Chitinous armor insectoid battlemage (with the starting points in dexterity & vitality). On the other hand, alchemist, after spending 5 points on alchemy and 3 on light, will have only 7 points to make himself useful outside of the bear form. That means pretty much no defensive skills for him and, while dealing decent damage, he'll take heavy incoming fire. Of course, you can take 2 points of accuracy, but that means even less non-bear skills. Well, I guess you do something like

Insectoid - 5 STR & 5 DEX - quick & martial training - Light & Accuracy > Accuracy > Light > Light > Alchemy > Alchemy > ALchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical

So you can do some damage without being a bear (those potions are not infinite, after all). But the damage will be rather meh.

 

[Greatness]

That's very arguable. And tanky characters are generally better recipients for the potions - there are much more attack-boosting potions than there are defensive ones.

I'd consider healing potions as defensive ones and there's hundreds of them, with an alchemist or two there's enough to use in pretty much every slightly challenging battle. Whilst the offensive potions are a little harder to come by so they should be used more sparingly.

As far as I can tell, it's just a simple subtraction. At least it seems so. If that's true, there's no diminishing returns.

I don't think that's the case. I spawned some enemies and let them smack on me with no armor(0), a full set(113), and half a set(68). The highest I got hit without armor was around 60 but the highest with armor was around 40. The damages seemed really random, but I took the averages of my sample size (20 hits each) and full armor took 26% less damage than half armor which took 51% less damage than no armor.

And battle mage makes a good bear because he's survivable enough to be tanky and take lots of incoming hits (which is something you want on your damage dealer) and, also, he doesn't need that much skill points to be useful. 3 concentration (maybe with 1 fire if you have no other casters) still makes him a decent crowd controller. So you put 3 points into light weapons and you have 7-8 skillpoints for the defensive measures - pretty much 5 armor + 3 dodge. I call the archetype a bugbear as it is best with the Quick+Chitinous armor insectoid battlemage (with the starting points in dexterity & vitality). On the other hand, alchemist, after spending 5 points on alchemy and 3 on light, will have only 7 points to make himself useful outside of the bear form. That means pretty much no defensive skills for him and, while dealing decent damage, he'll take heavy incoming fire. Of course, you can take 2 points of accuracy, but that means even less non-bear skills. Well, I guess you do something like
Insectoid - 5 STR & 5 DEX - quick & martial training - Light & Accuracy > Accuracy > Light > Light > Alchemy > Alchemy > ALchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical
So you can do some damage without being a bear (those potions are not infinite, after all). But the damage will be rather meh.

IMO Bear is better suited in the back row than tanking in the front. It's only a 5 skill investment (3 Light, 2 Accuracy) and back row characters don't have to invest in Armor or Dodge, so they have the points to spare. The only thing Battle Mage gets is the 1 energy per level. You won't be equipping a staff anyways since you want 2 daggers. Alchemist gets free ingredients even if he doesn't level the alchemy skill, which you could still do: 5 Alchemy, 3 Light Weapons, 2 Accuracy, and the rest divided as you want between fire/concentration. Even with no points into critical/dodge Bear Form still has higher DPS than even a 30 dex dual wielder with max dodge/crit, and you can go way higher because rage potions work on you. Out of bear form you can still cast fire spells, equally as good as a full mage if you use skill tomes.

 

[Greatness]

A-a-and it's up:

I watched your funbuilding video for Grimrock 2. Nice job and certainly interesting, I stuck through the whole 55 minutes :D. I'll reply here so I don't clutter up your thread.

There were some things I noticed that were off.

Firstly, the 1:1 ratio of protection and damage reduction. I'm 100% sure this isn't how it works. I've done quite a lot of testing on this and as best I can figure out the damage reduction is about 1/4 of your protection value with diminishing returns starting fairly early (pre 100).

When talking about the Fighter class you said it should be a Lizardman for more energy and more special attacks. Did you mean Insectoid? Also you didn't mention that the cooldown reduction abilities affect the additional "backswing" cooldown that special abilities add, meaning Dodge and Quick add a large increase to your DPS with most special abilities and depending on your weapon could be favoured over critical.

Another thing I noticed is that you keep saying how dexterity/accuracy lets you abuse Rage potions. Well, at least in my game (post patch) Rage potions don't have any effect on accuracy at all. Pretty sure it was like that in the original patch too, so not sure where you got that from. Dex users actually don't even get any benefit from Rage potions since their weapons receive damage from dexterity and not from strength.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Firstly, the 1:1 ratio of protection and damage reduction. I'm 100% sure this isn't how it works. I've done quite a lot of testing on this and as best I can figure out the damage reduction is about 1/4 of your protection value with diminishing returns starting fairly early (pre 100).

When talking about the Fighter class you said it should be a Lizardman for more energy and more special attacks. Did you mean Insectoid? Also you didn't mention that the cooldown reduction abilities affect the additional "backswing" cooldown that special abilities add, meaning Dodge and Quick add a large increase to your DPS with most special abilities and depending on your weapon could be favoured over critical.

Another thing I noticed is that you keep saying how dexterity/accuracy lets you abuse Rage potions. Well, at least in my game (post patch) Rage potions don't have any effect on accuracy at all. Pretty sure it was like that in the original patch too, so not sure where you got that from. Dex users actually don't even get any benefit from Rage potions since their weapons receive damage from dexterity and not from strength.

Protection thing and diminishing returns is very arguable - once I've reached 130 on my insectoid battlemage (without shield casted) he become seemingly twice as durable as my 100-ish barbarian. Someone should pester the devs about that, but it seems like that's how it works.

Lizardman - fast metabolism - more special attacks during the adventuring. As for the dodge & quick - it's quite obvious that they give 10% dps with everything. Still, for the heavy the critical is better because of the scythe and for the light users critical is better because of the backstab. Theoretically, dodge is cool, but practically very few builds actually have the points to raise it in any timely manner.

They don't have visual effect, but I dunno, whenever I quaff a rage potion or two my char starts missing like there's no tomorrow. There was some info about -20 penalty at the steam guides so I concluded it to be logical - after all, without any penalties, you could just drink, like, 5x rage + 1 speed and any boss would just fall to this. And, anyhow, even with the high accuracy you still miss a lot in the game so dexterity gives quite a considerable damage boost.

 

[Greatness]

Protection thing and diminishing returns is very arguable - once I've reached 130 on my insectoid battlemage (without shield casted) he become seemingly twice as durable as my 100-ish barbarian. Someone should pester the devs about that, but it seems like that's how it works.

Lizardman - fast metabolism - more special attacks during the adventuring. As for the dodge & quick - it's quite obvious that they give 10% dps with everything. Still, for the heavy the critical is better because of the scythe and for the light users critical is better because of the backstab. Theoretically, dodge is cool, but practically very few builds actually have the points to raise it in any timely manner.

They don't have visual effect, but I dunno, whenever I quaff a rage potion or two my char starts missing like there's no tomorrow. There was some info about -20 penalty at the steam guides so I concluded it to be logical - after all, without any penalties, you could just drink, like, 5x rage + 1 speed and any boss would just fall to this. And, anyhow, even with the high accuracy you still miss a lot in the game so dexterity gives quite a considerable damage boost.

There's no way it works as 1 protection = 1 damage reduction. I let a mob hit me 60 times with no armor and it averaged 35 damage, and with 50 armor it averaged 21 damage. If 50 armor actually removed 50 damage I would've been immune to it. I tested it the different amounts of armor in increments of 50 up to 200 and there does appear to be diminishing returns. Even if that was just the randomness in enemy attacks, it's still clear that it isn't 1 protection = 1 DR.

The problem with energy regeneration on characters whom use special abilities is that whilst your charging said abilities all energy regeneration is removed. Since on those characters you spend most of the time charging up your attack inbetween moving between tiles, you essentially have near zero energy regeneration, so I'd rather take a higher energy pool.

As for rage potions, it's very easy to spawn a couple hundred, drink them then wade into a room full of enemies. There is no accuracy penalty.

On CD reduction; it's not really a 10% boost for special ability users. Your time between attacks with them will be ChargeTime+(Cooldown+AbilityCooldown) with the cooldown reductions only applying to those in parenthesis, so it'll actually be a bit less than 10%. Still you're right there, crit is better most of the time.

 

[Pope Amole II]

There's no way it works as 1 protection = 1 damage reduction. I let a mob hit me 60 times with no armor and it averaged 35 damage, and with 50 armor it averaged 21 damage. If 50 armor actually removed 50 damage I would've been immune to it. I tested it the different amounts of armor in increments of 50 up to 200 and there does appear to be diminishing returns. Even if that was just the randomness in enemy attacks, it's still clear that it isn't 1 protection = 1 DR.

The problem with energy regeneration on characters whom use special abilities is that whilst your charging said abilities all energy regeneration is removed. Since on those characters you spend most of the time charging up your attack inbetween moving between tiles, you essentially have near zero energy regeneration, so I'd rather take a higher energy pool.

As for rage potions, it's very easy to spawn a couple hundred, drink them then wade into a room full of enemies. There is no accuracy penalty.

On CD reduction; it's not really a 10% boost for special ability users. Your time between attacks with them will be ChargeTime+(Cooldown+AbilityCooldown) with the cooldown reductions only applying to those in parenthesis, so it'll actually be a bit less than 10%. Still you're right there, crit is better most of the time.

Even if it's not, I'm still finding high protection to be really useful and let's not forget the tempo issue - the game is constantly hard so even if 5 protection form the natural armor does get worse in the late game, it still makes the early game that much easier. More so the chitin armor. I'm not against paying extra for the convenience during the huge chunk of the game. And by the end, your damage dealers become so insane that you don't really need a lot of them - just one end-game STR-light or heavy user should be more than enough to kill pretty much anything solo, so it's more about having a comfortable way to get there, in my opinion.

But it's not like you're fighting endless rows of enemies - there's usually a good amount of time in-between them, that's when it counts. And, unless you're fighting something insane, you don't really spend your entire pool on the single foe. Another thing is that there are no good ways of boosting your energy pool skill-wise (apart from the natural concentration, but it's more about spellcasting than the actual mana bonus) or stat-wise or trait-wise so while a higher energy pool is theoretically cooler (100% better during the boss-fights), practically it's not like there's any choice.

Hmm, than that's probably one of the most broken things in the game. Just drink 10x rage potions during the final bossfight and kill him in a couple of blows, I guess.

One other thing about speed reductions is micro-control issues - I dunno, my micro is not that good so I've found certain party combinations (like two full-pledged casters or two dual-wielders) to be really annoying. And, while quick & dodge give you more damage output, they sorta intensify the issue. if you have something like a str-dual wield + dex-dual wield + bear abuser in your party, they'll start to cancel each other somewhat simply because of the micro-issues.

 

[Greatness]

Even if it's not, I'm still finding high protection to be really useful and let's not forget the tempo issue - the game is constantly hard so even if 5 protection form the natural armor does get worse in the late game, it still makes the early game that much easier. More so the chitin armor. I'm not against paying extra for the convenience during the huge chunk of the game. And by the end, your damage dealers become so insane that you don't really need a lot of them - just one end-game STR-light or heavy user should be more than enough to kill pretty much anything solo, so it's more about having a comfortable way to get there, in my opinion.

But it's not like you're fighting endless rows of enemies - there's usually a good amount of time in-between them, that's when it counts. And, unless you're fighting something insane, you don't really spend your entire pool on the single foe. Another thing is that there are no good ways of boosting your energy pool skill-wise (apart from the natural concentration, but it's more about spellcasting than the actual mana bonus) or stat-wise or trait-wise so while a higher energy pool is theoretically cooler (100% better during the boss-fights), practically it's not like there's any choice.

Hmm, than that's probably one of the most broken things in the game. Just drink 10x rage potions during the final bossfight and kill him in a couple of blows, I guess.

One other thing about speed reductions is micro-control issues - I dunno, my micro is not that good so I've found certain party combinations (like two full-pledged casters or two dual-wielders) to be really annoying. And, while quick & dodge give you more damage output, they sorta intensify the issue. if you have something like a str-dual wield + dex-dual wield + bear abuser in your party, they'll start to cancel each other somewhat simply because of the micro-issues.

I didn't mean protection isn't useful, just that maybe these builds are a bit overkill if diminishing returns does exist (which my experimentation says it does). Chitinous Armor is obviously strong, but I bet if you already have it + battlemage bonus + shield spell then taking natural armor in addition isn't all that useful, even early game. And I actually find the game easiest early on, they don't really cramp you into situations where you can't move around as much, you don't have to deal with much elemental damage, and your mages are really strong compared to what they will be later.

In my tests with the editor I compared a insectoid battle mage with full meteor armor + chitinous armor + natural armor + staff bonus (140 armor) to a minotuar barbarian with just meteor armor + headhunter + aggressive (113 armor) both with starting points into dex/vit and the barb survived for longer every time. Its huge health pool ended up winning out over all the other class and trait bonuses combined. Against weaker enemies the battle mage is probably better, but against weak enemies it doesn't matter so much. Not to mention the Barb will do far more damage.

For the energy regeneration issue. Assuming your fighter is backrow and wearing some decent +energy gear, the 30% gain to regen won't matter at all. You'd have to stand around for like 5 minutes to regenerate it all back. Almost any other trait would be more useful in my opinion, perhaps just Aura or Martial Training. Even before you get that gear you can always just rest to regain energy instead of waiting on the slow regen, there's an infinite amount of food - it's only a short hop into a river to fill crates full of fish.

And yeah, the controls in this game are a pain. I've been gaming all my life and have already dealt with carpel tunnel so I just consider it bad design and assign all my actions to hotkeys. (yeah that prob counts as cheating, but whatever)

 

[Pope Amole II]

I didn't mean protection isn't useful, just that maybe these builds are a bit overkill if diminishing returns does exist (which my experimentation says it does). Chitinous Armor is obviously strong, but I bet if you already have it + battlemage bonus + shield spell then taking natural armor in addition isn't all that useful, even early game. And I actually find the game easiest early on, they don't really cramp you into situations where you can't move around as much, you don't have to deal with much elemental damage, and your mages are really strong compared to what they will be later.

In my tests with the editor I compared a insectoid battle mage with full meteor armor + chitinous armor + natural armor + staff bonus (140 armor) to a minotuar barbarian with just meteor armor + headhunter + aggressive (113 armor) both with starting points into dex/vit and the barb survived for longer every time. Its huge health pool ended up winning out over all the other class and trait bonuses combined. Against weaker enemies the battle mage is probably better, but against weak enemies it doesn't matter so much. Not to mention the Barb will do far more damage.

For the energy regeneration issue. Assuming your fighter is backrow and wearing some decent +energy gear, the 30% gain to regen won't matter at all. You'd have to stand around for like 5 minutes to regenerate it all back. Almost any other trait would be more useful in my opinion, perhaps just Aura or Martial Training. Even before you get that gear you can always just rest to regain energy instead of waiting on the slow regen, there's an infinite amount of food - it's only a short hop into a river to fill crates full of fish.

And yeah, the controls in this game are a pain. I've been gaming all my life and have already dealt with carpel tunnel so I just consider it bad design and assign all my actions to hotkeys. (yeah that prob counts as cheating, but whatever)

The thing is, I advocate natural armor for the battlemage only and, if you don't go melee, there isn't any better traits for him. Quick is limited by the energy pool and micro issues, +20 energy/health also don't matter that much. What else to take here? Also, I wouldn't say you're not cramped in the early game - in the Twigroot tunnels (probably the hardest part of the early game) there are 2 or 3 falls where you're dropped directly into the bunch of enemies (not to mention the first rat encounter and the undead ambush). Yeah, past that, there's a pause in difficulty until you go Desarune, but that's still pretty dangerous for a new player (who are supposed to be the main auditory of such vids).

Yeah, by the end of the game the barb becomes pretty tanky, but once again, tempo. My battlemage got to the point of 100 armor much faster than my barb (who was stuck at 60-70) and I remember him getting torn and torn again while my mage still was at the half health. Not to mention that you're not getting two sets of meteor armor and that, for the majority of the game, unless you metagame perfectly (and abuse all the secrets, which probably won't happen naturally) you'll have only 1 set of good armor.

As for the regen trait - once again, in my playthroughs I found it convenient. I had a party with 1 lizard mage, 1 non-lizard and I always was annoyed by the non-lizard not having as much spells to cast as the lizard. Maybe it's not strong in the powergaming terms, but it's very convenient and that's also important for the player. And while there are better options for the fighter, it's not like there are any for the casters.

 

[Whisper]

And so, after gaining the nigh-perfect understanding of the system, I can present the strongest party build:

1. Insectoid Battlemage - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Chitin Armor & Natural Armor - Concentration & Fire Magic

Level Ups: Fire > Fire > Concentration > Concentration > Armor > Armor > Armor > Armor > Water > Armor > Athletics > Athletics

Dex from the start because it's better in the long run - you don't need that much Energy on him but, once you gain 4 ranks in armor, those 5 evasion become more or less useful. Armor is crucial - protection is an all or nothing affair so you can't go lightly here. In the crystal set he'll have 150+ protection - now that's what counts. Athletics is simply to amplify the effect of those 150+ protection. And little magic here because he can cast all the best stuff anyway - fireburst, fire shield, force field, shield, darkness, darkbolt. He can also throw bombs - better to waste his time on that than anyone else's. And he'll use magical trinkets (like the crystal shield). Water Magic is for dispel - those pesky Air Elementals. If you find the dispel staff or ethereal dagger before that, it may be skipped and extra level can be put into Athletics. Or you might max out fire simply for the +50 resistance.

2. Lizardman Knight - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Endure Elements & Evasive - Armor & Light Weapons

Level Ups: Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Critical > Armor > Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Armor (+ Dodge > Dodge > Dodge from the skillbooks - it's your main damage dealer through the most of the game so you focus on him)

While on its own evasion is very weak, coupled with a good armor score it becomes rather strong. So that's what we're building here - you take the ability to wear the Reed armor & profit from them, them you enable your backstab, then you prepare to wear heavy armor as that switch is inevitable and you work on your DD capabilites afterwards. See, I dislike the backrow Rogue because he's not utilizing dexterity fully - he's gaining damage from it, but not the defensive capabilities. His evasion goes to waste. Here, yes, he'll have about 6 less damage per hand (which is not that crippling), but he's a great tank, especially after you dump a dozen or so of +DEX potions into him (which you totally should - this guy is a power nexus for your party).

3. Lizardman Fighter - points into Willpower & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Fast Metabolism - Heavy Weapons & Accuracy

Level UPs: Accuracy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical

Yeah, no strength, lol. See, in the end, those 3.75 damage lost from the 5 strength don't matter that much - you want strength, you just gulp a rage potion (they stack with each other, btw). But to do that, you need accuracy which is what we're building here. And willpower is good in the combination with the fast metabolism - we simply can slamdunk more often. Throw in an Archmage set (best set for the fighter, lol) and you're all set up.

4. Lizardman Alchemist - points into Strength & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Aggressive - Throwing Weapons & Alchemy

Level Ups: Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical

Not as good as the minotaur rogue in terms of DPS, but Alch just gives you way too much extra potions to ignore him. And he's still a decent source of DPS.

Btw, it's one insectoid + 3 lizard because you'll find enough + protection items to protect one character reliably, so 4 lizards are probably an overkill.

1. When not throwing bombs, what would insectoid do to damage enemies? Only weak fireburst?
2. Why throwing for alchemist and not missle weapons - Or -hy throwing and no casting (meteor storm)?

 

[Pope Amole II]

1. When not throwing bombs, what would insectoid do to damage enemies? Only weak fireburst?
2. Why throwing for alchemist and not missle weapons - Or -hy throwing and no casting (meteor storm)?

1. His goal is not to damage enemies, not in the late game - it's to cast force field and darkness and use wand of terror and, when needed, the crystal shield. And whatever other trinket you might want to use, like the acolyte's rod.
2. Meteor storm on the alchemist is just too slow - considering he also needs 5 points in alchemy, that's 13 skill points total - level 12. The game is almost over by then. And I like throwing because, during the most of the game, it's on par with the missile weapons, but it's much stronger in the early game.

 

[Zdanek]

The Battle Mage doesn't actually need the Armor skill, it only gives 20% bonus per armor piece so it's not really worth the skill investment here since you already have tons of armor from class/traits/spells. Equip him with Crystal Armor+Nergal Amulet and your Barbarian with the Meteor Armor and they will both end up with around the same HP and Armor as one another.

Hey, I like your party build but I have a qestions.
What about Evasion on battle mage? With no points in Armor you'll have negative value. Negative evasion does not significantly affect on first line character?
I'll se your party as
1. battle mage with heavy armor (crystal), scythe and staff
2. barbarian dual-light weapons STR in heavy armor (meteor)
3. rouge with dual light weapons based on DEX in rouge set
4. alchemist in bear form with huge amount on energy - what items should be used here?
Am I right?
do You have any new recomendations after new hours of playing? i'm thinking about armor skill in battle mage and as You said in later post it is worth to choose Natural Armor at start on this character?
I'm planing to build varied party so it looks ok for me - I don't want to build 4alchemist party

 

[Greatness]

The Battle Mage doesn't actually need the Armor skill, it only gives 20% bonus per armor piece so it's not really worth the skill investment here since you already have tons of armor from class/traits/spells. Equip him with Crystal Armor+Nergal Amulet and your Barbarian with the Meteor Armor and they will both end up with around the same HP and Armor as one another.

Hey, I like your party build but I have a qestions.
What about Evasion on battle mage? With no points in Armor you'll have negative value. Negative evasion does not significantly affect on first line character?
I'll se your party as
1. battle mage with heavy armor (crystal), scythe and staff
2. barbarian dual-light weapons STR in heavy armor (meteor)
3. rouge with dual light weapons based on DEX in rouge set
4. alchemist in bear form with huge amount on energy - what items should be used here?
Am I right?
do You have any new recomendations after new hours of playing? i'm thinking about armor skill in battle mage and as You said in later post it is worth to choose Natural Armor at start on this character?
I'm planing to build varied party so it looks ok for me - I don't want to build 4alchemist party

It's hard to say if it's significant or not. The character isn't using a shield and doesn't have much dexterity, so even with Armor skill you're still only looking at like <8 evasion. You definitely won't be dodging anything while in the negatives though, so if you're worried about it you could always take a point off of concentration/accuracy(Martial Training/Dex Potions can compensate) and then with your two extra skill tomes take 4 points into armor.

Alternatively you can put the rogue to the frontline with 5light/5crit/4armor/3dodge and use heavy armor on him. With the health tomes, decent mutation/cheese gains (mine had 25dex/21vit before any stat potions, but don't expect that), and all the dex/vit potions, it can be very tanky. A bit harder in the early game though. You can also swap him to a Knight instead if you value the 1prot/lvl over the 15% weapon damage boost. If you do decide to take that route you should use a fighter in the backrow over a battlemage, taking heavy/accuracy/alchemy/crit.

For Bear form user, just mass energy. Archmage set, shaman's cloak, spiritwalker pendant. Even those are just luxury, you only really need some daggers and some potions. If you find that you're rolling in energy/bear potions and don't need the extra time, you can equip +damage/accuracy items if you want, though they aren't all that necessary.

The reason I recommended natural armor on that character and not on Pope Amole's is because mine wasn't taking the actual armor skill, so relatively it had more value. If you are taking the Armor skill and Chitin Armor then I think it's best to take Evasion, Martial Training, or Tough.

As for other recommendations. The difference between Pope's and my build is that I focus on the offensive while his on the defensive. To be honest his probably makes for an easier game, especially as a first run. Mine was more so for my second run once I had a decent knowledge of the combat/movement/enemy mechanics and knew how to play without taking so much damage and thus could focus more on big numbers and killing things quickly.

If you don't mind a little meta-gaming, then it might be worth it to beeline for the first crystal flowers once you clear the starting map. It really won't make any difference if you do it or not, but my OCD really hates that you permanently miss out on the +1 stat if you don't do it (because your alchemist won't have one in time for it to duplicate on his 4500th step).

 

[Shadenuat]

I sometimes come back to the game to make another run to next crystal on Misery difficulty (Hard + all options checked). My party is:
Lizardman Fighter, Resists+Immunity to poison (probably and overkill but I hate status effects), Heavy weapons/Accuracy/Armor
Lizardman Battlemage, Resists+Immunity to poison, standard stuff (Fire/Concentration&armor whatever to get more useful spells)
Human Alchemist, human perks, Alchemy, Missile weapons, Accuracy - I just taken him because of cool portrait of old druid guy
Minotaur Farmer, agressive+head hunter, Throwing&Accuracy - I decided against Alchemy on this one cause not enough skill points, and because with Throwing+Accuracy+STR you also can use heavy weapons from back row. If I max 3d skill it would probably be Heavy Weapons.

Sooo... it's hard. But meta knowledge serves me greatly. So kinda fun. Gonna visit swamp/islands since I got out of newb zones.

 

[Whisper]

And so, after gaining the nigh-perfect understanding of the system, I can present the strongest party build:

1. Insectoid Battlemage - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Chitin Armor & Natural Armor - Concentration & Fire Magic

Level Ups: Fire > Fire > Concentration > Concentration > Armor > Armor > Armor > Armor > Water > Armor > Athletics > Athletics

Dex from the start because it's better in the long run - you don't need that much Energy on him but, once you gain 4 ranks in armor, those 5 evasion become more or less useful. Armor is crucial - protection is an all or nothing affair so you can't go lightly here. In the crystal set he'll have 150+ protection - now that's what counts. Athletics is simply to amplify the effect of those 150+ protection. And little magic here because he can cast all the best stuff anyway - fireburst, fire shield, force field, shield, darkness, darkbolt. He can also throw bombs - better to waste his time on that than anyone else's. And he'll use magical trinkets (like the crystal shield). Water Magic is for dispel - those pesky Air Elementals. If you find the dispel staff or ethereal dagger before that, it may be skipped and extra level can be put into Athletics. Or you might max out fire simply for the +50 resistance.

2. Lizardman Knight - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Endure Elements & Evasive - Armor & Light Weapons

Level Ups: Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Critical > Armor > Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Armor (+ Dodge > Dodge > Dodge from the skillbooks - it's your main damage dealer through the most of the game so you focus on him)

While on its own evasion is very weak, coupled with a good armor score it becomes rather strong. So that's what we're building here - you take the ability to wear the Reed armor & profit from them, them you enable your backstab, then you prepare to wear heavy armor as that switch is inevitable and you work on your DD capabilites afterwards. See, I dislike the backrow Rogue because he's not utilizing dexterity fully - he's gaining damage from it, but not the defensive capabilities. His evasion goes to waste. Here, yes, he'll have about 6 less damage per hand (which is not that crippling), but he's a great tank, especially after you dump a dozen or so of +DEX potions into him (which you totally should - this guy is a power nexus for your party).

3. Lizardman Fighter - points into Willpower & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Fast Metabolism - Heavy Weapons & Accuracy

Level UPs: Accuracy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical

Yeah, no strength, lol. See, in the end, those 3.75 damage lost from the 5 strength don't matter that much - you want strength, you just gulp a rage potion (they stack with each other, btw). But to do that, you need accuracy which is what we're building here. And willpower is good in the combination with the fast metabolism - we simply can slamdunk more often. Throw in an Archmage set (best set for the fighter, lol) and you're all set up.

4. Lizardman Alchemist - points into Strength & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Aggressive - Throwing Weapons & Alchemy

Level Ups: Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical

Not as good as the minotaur rogue in terms of DPS, but Alch just gives you way too much extra potions to ignore him. And he's still a decent source of DPS.

Btw, it's one insectoid + 3 lizard because you'll find enough + protection items to protect one character reliably, so 4 lizards are probably an overkill.

Works very well so far.

 

[Pope Amole II]

As my farewell to the game, I've taken such party build to the Cemetery (don't really feel like finishing it - I've already played the living hell out of the second Grimrock):

Anub'arak - Insectoid Barbarian - 5 Strength & Dexterity - Quick & Chitin Armor - Light Weapons & Critical
Level Ups: Light > Light > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical > Armor > Armor > Armor > Armor > Armor

Venenum - Lizardman Knight - 5 Dexteriy & Vitality - Endure Elements & Evasive - Light Weapons & Armor
Level Ups: Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Critical > Light > Light > Armor > Armor> Critical > Critical > Armor

Plissken - Lizardman Alchemist - 5 Strength & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Marital Training - Heavy Weapons & Accuracy
Level Ups: Accuracy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Critical > Critical > Critical

Lina inverse - Human Farmer - 5 Vitality & Willpower - Skilled & Fast Learner - Concentration:
Level Ups: Fire > Fire > Fire > Fire > Fire > Air > Air > Air > Concentration > Concentration > Water > Water > Water > Water > Water > Concentration > Concentration

Some thoughts about it:

1. Farmer is the best backrow caster in the game if you metagame around him properly. You don't feed her that much until you get to the flooded dungeon on the sleet island (she was at lvl 3 there, mostly form treasure chests & natural eating), but once you get that +25% experience amulet that's when she gets totally gorged (especially if you were lucky with the food drops & fished everything that moved - knowing how to get an early trident also helps here). That combo helped me to take her to the colossal lvl 18 (without starving my party), but that's probably overkill - the most important thing about her is that, when I entered the Desarune at lvl 8 of the party (I did the 1st level of Pyramid before - also a nice metagaming move), she was lvl 14. So she could cast both meteor strike and frost shield - those ice elementals were really happy about it. But, tbh, that was an overkill - if I redid it from the scratch, I'd just focus her early game on 5 Water-1 air-3 Concentration-5 Alchemy, because through most of the game she was just throwing Frost Bolts and that could've increased the power of my alch.

2. Heavy weapons are so stupidly broken in the late game - despite being half-combat character, even with Ancient Claymore my alch was dealing as much damage as my combat oriented frontline. That's just stupid. Sure, you get it at lvl 11-12, somewhere around that, so a huge part of the game was behind me, but that also can be metagamed around - Medusae are scary, but they can be frozen so it's more about the amount of frost bombs you can allow. And Scythe should be even easier to rush (probably Bane too). So best replay party is probably heavy knight + heavy battlemage + heavy alchemist + caster farmer, abusing the living hell out of unnatural game progression.

3. Two dual-wielders is too much - causes micro-issues and, well, dual-wielders are really dependent on hogging all the permanent stat increases potion they can see. So they don't mix that well together - my Knight ended going up through the game with a shield in her hand, mostly because of that. But at least she tanked pretty well - +15 evasion, when coupled with a decent protection score, really helped her survive through various tough crap. She also completed her armor much earlier than the barb (obviously) and the difference between -30 evasion and 40 evasion was painfully obvious for the barbarian (more painful than obvious).

 

[Lord Romulus]

My party is pretty standard and boring.

1. Barbarian minotaur with headhunter and martial training. Leveling armor, heavy weapons, accuracy and athletics, found six skulls so far

2. Human knight with fast learner and aggressive. Leveling armor, heavy weapons, accuracy and athletics too (pretty much same as my barbarian)

3. Human alchemist with fast learner and agile. Leveling alchemy, firearms, critical, accuracy and light weapons. Kind of regret not going a rogue though, since I'm building my alchemist like one. I've only got the flintlock and the arquebus and it jams way too much and does shit damage compared to my fist dagger from the rear.

4. Insectoid wizard with strong mind and chitin armor. Leveling concentration and all the magic with a focus on fire and air

Since I'm such a filthy disgusting weeaboo, here's what my party looks like, they're mostly identical to my Grimrock 1 party.

Spoiler

 

[chaos]

Ok, so I finished my first playthrough with this build, because you said your understanding of the system was nigh-perfect. Mostly it worked great, so thank-you... but I have some nitpicks below. I liked how the STR / DEX / VIT / WIL stats were split nicely among the characters.

And so, after gaining the nigh-perfect understanding of the system, I can present the strongest party build:

1. Insectoid Battlemage - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Chitin Armor & Natural Armor - Concentration & Fire Magic

Level Ups: Fire > Fire > Concentration > Concentration > Armor > Armor > Armor > Armor > Water > Armor > Athletics > Athletics

Dex from the start because it's better in the long run - you don't need that much Energy on him but, once you gain 4 ranks in armor, those 5 evasion become more or less useful. Armor is crucial - protection is an all or nothing affair so you can't go lightly here. In the crystal set he'll have 150+ protection - now that's what counts. Athletics is simply to amplify the effect of those 150+ protection. And little magic here because he can cast all the best stuff anyway - fireburst, fire shield, force field, shield, darkness, darkbolt. He can also throw bombs - better to waste his time on that than anyone else's. And he'll use magical trinkets (like the crystal shield). Water Magic is for dispel - those pesky Air Elementals. If you find the dispel staff or ethereal dagger before that, it may be skipped and extra level can be put into Athletics. Or you might max out fire simply for the +50 resistance.

I barely had to cast shield with this guy, ~125 protection was fine. Those force fields were incredibly useful though, so I'd probably prefer an extra couple points in concentration and just one point in fire for early survivability. I used the Pearl Shield for +25 energy over the Crystal Shield. Gave this one all the VIT potions and Health manuals.

2. Lizardman Knight - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Endure Elements & Evasive - Armor & Light Weapons

Level Ups: Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Critical > Armor > Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Armor (+ Dodge > Dodge > Dodge from the skillbooks - it's your main damage dealer through the most of the game so you focus on him)

While on its own evasion is very weak, coupled with a good armor score it becomes rather strong. So that's what we're building here - you take the ability to wear the Reed armor & profit from them, them you enable your backstab, then you prepare to wear heavy armor as that switch is inevitable and you work on your DD capabilites afterwards. See, I dislike the backrow Rogue because he's not utilizing dexterity fully - he's gaining damage from it, but not the defensive capabilities. His evasion goes to waste. Here, yes, he'll have about 6 less damage per hand (which is not that crippling), but he's a great tank, especially after you dump a dozen or so of +DEX potions into him (which you totally should - this guy is a power nexus for your party).

I really had to stuff a lot of dexterity potions down this guy's throat in order for him to be effective, at least compared to the guys in the backrow. The backstab was too annoying to pull off most of the time. The strength-based light weapons are slightly better I believe, plus I think I'd want the extra carrying capacity of STR over the evasion/accuracy bonus of DEX. Even still, I might want another heavy weapons guy in the front instead, so maybe Heavy5 and whatever Accuracy is necessary to catch up. That said, if he were strength-based, light or heavy, then maybe a Barbarian would work better. I had two weapons so I never used the Meteor shield. Also in the version I played with, the evasion bonus of shields was not raised by 50% for Knights.

So, I don't know - I feel like if you took the 3 skill manuals and all those crystal flower potions, you could make a more lethal character here.

3. Lizardman Fighter - points into Willpower & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Fast Metabolism - Heavy Weapons & Accuracy

Level UPs: Accuracy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical

Yeah, no strength, lol. See, in the end, those 3.75 damage lost from the 5 strength don't matter that much - you want strength, you just gulp a rage potion (they stack with each other, btw). But to do that, you need accuracy which is what we're building here. And willpower is good in the combination with the fast metabolism - we simply can slamdunk more often. Throw in an Archmage set (best set for the fighter, lol) and you're all set up.

This guy was really strong. Didn't bother with the rage potions. Archmage set plus Bane or Claymore was excellent. Gave him my extra willpower potions.

4. Lizardman Alchemist - points into Strength & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Aggressive - Throwing Weapons & Alchemy

Level Ups: Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical

Not as good as the minotaur rogue in terms of DPS, but Alch just gives you way too much extra potions to ignore him. And he's still a decent source of DPS.

Btw, it's one insectoid + 3 lizard because you'll find enough + protection items to protect one character reliably, so 4 lizards are probably an overkill.

This guy was really strong too. With the bearclaw gauntlets, bear skull, and any extra STR potions found, he was generally as good as the Knight with all the potions in terms of DPS.

 

[Pope Amole II]

your understanding of the system was nigh-perfect.

Emphasis on nigh, I guess. But yeah, at that point, it was more nigh than perfect.

I barely had to cast shield with this guy, ~125 protection was fine.

Well, that's why I love this guy - you don't have to cast shield on him (because I almost never used it on my own battlemages, even if I needed it - I get bored with the constant buffing very quickly).

So, I don't know - I feel like if you took the 3 skill manuals and all those crystal flower potions, you could make a more lethal character here.

Maybe. In the end, his benefit is all that evasion and while it doesn't always feel that good, it still helps him to be more tanky. So he's less of a pure damage dealer and more a crossbreed between that and a tank.

 

[chaos]

It was really quite a good build. The end game was stupidly easy. The Knight had the same protection as the Battlemage - 127 vs 125 - but I'm not clear whether the extra evasion made that much of a difference, even though it was 54 vs 15.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Well, I can't guarantee it, but they say that each evasion point is 1% evasion (so, if you reach 100, it's immunity to physical attacks - haven't tested this personally, though). So, from this viewpoint, your knight should've been about 40% more survivable than your battlemage.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

So, has anyone tried a Minotaur Alchemist?

 

[Wened]

Hi. I finished Legend of Grimrock around 2 years ago and now i'm preparing for the second instalment. I have no time to play it now but it's lots of fun for me to read guides and plan ahead. In the first game I liked to dance around my opponents to hit them without being hit myself and I disliked how spell casting was implemented. Can any LoG2 veterans comment on my party idea?
Please explain what's good and what's bad about it.

FRONT ROW:
Two identical lizardman barbarians

STATS:
+5 to AGI and STR
TRAITS:
Endure elements, Fast Metabolism
SKILLS:
Heavy weapons 5
Armor 5
Evasion 5

BACK ROW:
Lizardman Rogue

STATS:
+5 to AGI and STR
TRAITS:
Endure elements, Agresive
SKILLS:
Light weapons 5
Accuracy 5 (so i can attack from back row)
Critical 5

Lizardman Alchemist

STATS:
+5 to AGI and STR
TRAITS:
Endure elements, Weapon Training
SKILLS:
Alchemy 5
Throwing 5
Accuracy? or Athletics?

 

[Orma]

isn't there a thread for this? also