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Legend of Grimrock 2 Party Compositions

Dyskolos

Cipher
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For a replay session I will most definetely skip Humans. That XP gain bonus is the only thing they have going for it, and the only way I could use that to my advantage was to have him take Athletics, wear the crystal armour and become my Tank. That saved me a few times.

I'm gonna wait until after the game gets patched before even thinking about a replay, but currently I'm kicking around these ideas:

For the front ranks, an Insectoid and a Lizardmen, one as a Fighter and the other as a Knight. I don't see a Barbarian being a viable choice, and Rogues are too fragile to be worth having in the frontrank.

Minotaur Farmer as my Alchemist/Missile Weapon/packmule guy. There are plenty of plants in LoG2 and as has been said, that longbow + arrows is better than all the guns except maybe the cannons. Has anyone checked if the Crossbow outperforms the bows in damage?

Ratling Wizard as my spellcaster. This may be due to bugs, but currently Ratling outperform Insectoids in the long run in terms of magic.
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
The difference in the time it takes to click a 2Hander and the time it takes to click two 1Handers is almost non-existent so long as you're halfway competent with using a mouse...

Oh, e-peen contest invitation.
I'll pass.
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
Currently using this party:

Mino barb, 2-hander.
Insectoid battlemage, fire-air magic
Rattling rogue, Dex missile-user
Alchemist, fire-air magic


Works good so far.
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
For a replay session I will most definetely skip Humans. That XP gain bonus is the only thing they have going for it, and the only way I could use that to my advantage was to have him take Athletics, wear the crystal armour and become my Tank. That saved me a few times.

I'm gonna wait until after the game gets patched before even thinking about a replay, but currently I'm kicking around these ideas:

For the front ranks, an Insectoid and a Lizardmen, one as a Fighter and the other as a Knight. I don't see a Barbarian being a viable choice, and Rogues are too fragile to be worth having in the frontrank.

Minotaur Farmer as my Alchemist/Missile Weapon/packmule guy. There are plenty of plants in LoG2 and as has been said, that longbow + arrows is better than all the guns except maybe the cannons. Has anyone checked if the Crossbow outperforms the bows in damage?

Ratling Wizard as my spellcaster. This may be due to bugs, but currently Ratling outperform Insectoids in the long run in terms of magic.


Human advantage is +1 free level from Skilled.
 

Greatness

Cipher
Joined
Mar 17, 2007
Messages
288
I think a group of four alchemists would be really strong. Since they start with 50 health and energy and get +6/4 per level of each, they can fill any role almost as well as a class designed specifically for it. And when you factor in all the extra potions they probably outperform everything else. Getting 4x as many permanent stat potion duplicates would also be pretty insane.

Tanking? You got 1 less health per level than a knight. Just imagine a Lizardman who gets 50% resist all and double the healing from all your hundreds of health potions. You also have enough energy to reliably cast shield with just 1 point in concentration. +25 Armor outshines all other defensive class bonuses.

Spellcasting? You only have 1 less energy per level than a Battle Mage, but you got 4x as many energy potions.

DPS? When you're not using BearForm/Rage for the crazy +70 strength, you still have 4x as many permanent stat potions. So just drink up and you might have even more strength than a Barbarian.


...the other as a Knight. I don't see a Barbarian being a viable choice...

IMO Barbarians are one of the stronger classes. They are definitely the highest DPS class, and on par with the tankiest as well.

Comparing a lvl 14 bard & knight whom both have the best available gear (crystal armor, meteor hammer, nergal amulet, scaled cloak):

Barb has ~18% more health
Barb does ~10% more dps
Knight has ~12% more protection
Knight has 5 more evade

It's pretty hard to tell the difference between 118 protection and 104 protection. The extra HP is probably better since the main problems at the point come from elemental damage which bypasses armor.

You can also opt to dual-wield the barb instead of using a shield and do much more dps than a two-hander.

Has anyone checked if the Crossbow outperforms the bows in damage?

The crossbow is the highest base damage missile weapon, but it doesn't have a special ability. It's probably best to use it most of the time and swap to a bow if you want to use a special ability.

This may be due to bugs, but currently Ratling outperform Insectoids in the long run in terms of magic.

The thing about Ratling's mutation is that it's random. There's a decent chance that you might not get more than 2 bonus willpower from it. The Insect gets at least that guaranteed 2 willpower, but it can also take the Quick trait for faster cooldown between spells.
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
80
Just finished it on hard with:

Minotaur / barbarian/ 2H
Insect / battle mage / mostly fire
rat / rogue / dex dual wield
lizard / alchemist / missile

Best 2h weapon in the game for me was scythe. Base dmg is 11-34, not that much but it adds 5% crit chance and criticals do 3x DMG and cooldown is only 3.5 sec. The best part is its special attack Harvest which does 10x DMG on critical hit (energy cost is 40), did 1100+ dmg to final boss. My crit chance with barbarian was 25% at the end with critical skill lvl 4.

Battle mage and its fire spells were useful through the whole game.
Rogue was useful mostly for backstabs
Alchemist....well he was an alchemist :)
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
Rogue is great with missile weapons. Hitting 60-70 reliably, 120-140 crits. Crit chance currently is 34%.
Currently about to enter cemetary.

Probably rogue archer is must for any good party.
 
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Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
Lets see mob weakness and immunities:

Mummies and plant-creatures take increased damage from fire.
 

GriffDeLaGriff

Barely Literate
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
3
Here's my new party, cuz theory crafting is fun:

Front:
Insectoid Battle Mage - Chitin Armor/Natural Armor - HeavyWeapons/Armor

Actually doing a melee Battle Mage this time. Max out heavy weapons so he can wield a 2hander and a staff at the same time. The +10 protection from the staff/class bonus is better than any shield for most of the game and the higher energy will let me use the 2handers special attacks more often than even a fighter could. I won't bother casting much spells, only the amazing shield spell, since that combined total of +50 free armor is nothing to sneeze at.

Minotuar Barbarian - Aggressive/Head Hunter - LightWeapons(STR)/Armor

For my other tank it's the typical dual-wielding barbarian. Since the Battle Mage has insanely high innate armor the Barbarian will get to wear most of the better drops. The superior gear and massive healthpool should help him reach similar survivability as the other frontliner. The high STR bonuses from the barb class and headhunter trait make dual-wielding strength-based light weapons the 2nd highest DPS of all weapon types.

Back:
Ratling Rogue - Aggressive/Mutation - LightWeapons(DEX)/Alchemy

I would put a throwing weapon character here, but the way retrieving throwing ammo works in this game has everything you pick up put into the left slot, which is terribly annoying since throwing needs both slots filled due to it's double attack. There's also the problem of having too many characters reliant on strength gear, so instead this will be the DEX character. Due to there being a lot of really good dex gear, like the rogue set/hunter's cloak, DEX based dual-wielders can do some really respectable damage, they just need to be attacking from the back row.

Insectoid Alchemist - Quick/Aura - Fire Spells/Bear Form

Caster's are really strong and useful for most of the early-mid game, but later on damage-wise they fall quite far behind the physical classes. This build gets the best of both worlds. Spend early game as basically a wizard, stacking up on ingredients for later, then once you tire of casting spells switch into near-permanent bear form. With full +energy gear and all the ingredients you stockpiled you can spend pretty much the rest of the game as a overpowered bear who does more damage than anyone else in the group. Just make sure you leveled 3 points into light weapons so your bear claws can attack twice.


First of all, Hi Im Griff and I have been playing RPG`s since Intellisvison D&D.
I mostly love turn-based RPG but everything goes as long as the system is good.
I am in love with dungeon crawlers and especially love the EoB-series and Dungeon master.


Ok so I`m testing out this party. I have played log number 1 but not number 2.

I wonder if you could clarify something.

1. I cant cast with the Insectoid Alchemist, do I have to wait to find a staff?
2. "Bear Form" is not selectable. So what should I select in the beginning here?
3. Explain Alchemy on the Rogue please.
4. With this setup I didnt get an alchemy pot in the start, but you might find something later.

So basically things might work out and im retarded :D, but I feel I really need to know nr.2 before I go further.
 

Greatness

Cipher
Joined
Mar 17, 2007
Messages
288
I wonder if you could clarify something.
1. I cant cast with the Insectoid Alchemist, do I have to wait to find a staff?
2. "Bear Form" is not selectable. So what should I select in the beginning here?
3. Explain Alchemy on the Rogue please.
4. With this setup I didnt get an alchemy pot in the start, but you might find something later.
So basically things might work out and im retarded :D, but I feel I really need to know nr.2 before I go further.

1. Yes you have to find a staff/wand. You'll get one very early though, so it's not much of a problem

2. The skills I mentioned weren't really "starting" skills, just things the character use. If you want starting skills, I'd do HeavyWeapons/Accuracy, LightWeapons/Accuracy, LightWeapons/Accuracy, FireMagic/Concentration. Make sure to take the 2nd point of accuracy on the rogue at level 2 so he can attack form the back row. The Bear Form refers to a potion you get a bit farther into the game that lets you transform into a bear. I like this on casters since later on spells start to fall off a bit and since they have very high energy the bear form transformation lasts for a long time. You can craft the potion with FalconSkyre + Mudwort.

3. Alchemy is on the rogue since he has the least amount of other skills that he needs to level. Unlike the front liners he doesn't need an armor skill or concentration, so he can spare the points on alchemy. The alchemist isn't getting it since he needs 3 in lightweapons and 2 in accuracy to attack while in bear form. The Alchemist class bonus (duplicating herbs) works whether or not you have points in the actual alchemy skill or not. Just be sure to keep 1 of each herb in the alchemists inventory to allow them to duplicate, then the rest can go to the rogue.

4. Yes, you will find the alchemy mortar in the second map.

You'll only reach around level 13-15 in the end, so skills points aren't exactly plentiful. I'd prob spend them as so:
Battle Mage: 5 Heavy Weapons, 5 Critical (Scythe DMG), 3 Concentration (Best Staff Req), 3 Accuracy
Barbarian: 5 Light Weapons, 5 Armor, 5 Critical (Backstab), 1 Accuracy (Tome of Wisdom bonus here)
Rogue: 5 Light Weapons (Or Missile if you want), 5 Critical (Backstab), 4 Alchemy (Don't need 5, it's only bombs, wait until you have decent amount of crystal flowers), 2 Accuracy
Alchemist: 5 Fire Magic (Or 4 fire 1 Air if you want fireball), 5 Concentration, 3 Light Weapons (For Bear Form Dual-Wield), 3 Accuracy

The Battle Mage doesn't actually need the Armor skill, it only gives 20% bonus per armor piece so it's not really worth the skill investment here since you already have tons of armor from class/traits/spells. Equip him with Crystal Armor+Nergal Amulet and your Barbarian with the Meteor Armor and they will both end up with around the same HP and Armor as one another.

As far as what order to level the skills on: For melee focus weapon skills first, accuracy if you find you're missing too often, armor once you have a decent set of it, and alchemy/crit if none of the others are needed. For your alchemist max fire and a few point into concentration at first, then skill up the others when you want to start using bear form.
 
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GriffDeLaGriff

Barely Literate
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
3
Hey this is really great. I liked the thought you had about this party and really want to try it out so I`m gonna do a second start-run tonight with some adjustments.

Thanks alot.

(and omg I found my old NWN avatar to use here)
 

Slivers

Barely Literate
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
3
Here's my new party, cuz theory crafting is fun:

Front:
Insectoid Battle Mage - Chitin Armor/Natural Armor - HeavyWeapons/Armor

Actually doing a melee Battle Mage this time. Max out heavy weapons so he can wield a 2hander and a staff at the same time. The +10 protection from the staff/class bonus is better than any shield for most of the game and the higher energy will let me use the 2handers special attacks more often than even a fighter could. I won't bother casting much spells, only the amazing shield spell, since that combined total of +50 free armor is nothing to sneeze at.

Minotuar Barbarian - Aggressive/Head Hunter - LightWeapons(STR)/Armor

For my other tank it's the typical dual-wielding barbarian. Since the Battle Mage has insanely high innate armor the Barbarian will get to wear most of the better drops. The superior gear and massive healthpool should help him reach similar survivability as the other frontliner. The high STR bonuses from the barb class and headhunter trait make dual-wielding strength-based light weapons the 2nd highest DPS of all weapon types.

Back:
Ratling Rogue - Aggressive/Mutation - LightWeapons(DEX)/Alchemy

I would put a throwing weapon character here, but the way retrieving throwing ammo works in this game has everything you pick up put into the left slot, which is terribly annoying since throwing needs both slots filled due to it's double attack. There's also the problem of having too many characters reliant on strength gear, so instead this will be the DEX character. Due to there being a lot of really good dex gear, like the rogue set/hunter's cloak, DEX based dual-wielders can do some really respectable damage, they just need to be attacking from the back row.

Insectoid Alchemist - Quick/Aura - Fire Spells/Bear Form

Caster's are really strong and useful for most of the early-mid game, but later on damage-wise they fall quite far behind the physical classes. This build gets the best of both worlds. Spend early game as basically a wizard, stacking up on ingredients for later, then once you tire of casting spells switch into near-permanent bear form. With full +energy gear and all the ingredients you stockpiled you can spend pretty much the rest of the game as a overpowered bear who does more damage than anyone else in the group. Just make sure you leveled 3 points into light weapons so your bear claws can attack twice.

Thanks for the great help! As a Dad of two young boys, I was really won't have time to play through the game twice. Wanting to make my new party and not suck completely, was a bit intimidating from the lack of information available. This was the boost I needed :)

Any suggestions on what to focus on for Attributes for each in character creation? I have no clue what's good but put this together as a starting point:

Str/Dex/Vit/Will
Battle Mage 15/10/13/12
Barbarian 20/8/18/7
Rogue 8/17/13/10
Alchemist 11/10/12/17 (most unsure because of bear form later on)
 
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Greatness

Cipher
Joined
Mar 17, 2007
Messages
288
Any suggestions on what to focus on for Attributes for each in character creation? I have no clue what's good but put this together as a starting point:


Your stat choices look mostly fine to me. Battle Mage choices are optimal. Your rogue stats are good too. The Barbarian probably doesn't need any more vitality than it starts with (the class gets insane base HP/LVL), instead go for dex so it won't miss so often. Bear form on alchemist gives +50 strength so you don't really need anything but willpower there, but dex is probably more valuable than vitality since alchemist class has good HP/LVL.

I'd do:
15/10/13/12
21/11/14/07
08/17/13/10
11/12/10/17
 
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Slivers

Barely Literate
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
3
Any suggestions on what to focus on for Attributes for each in character creation? I have no clue what's good but put this together as a starting point:


Your stat choices look mostly fine to me. Battle Mage choices are optimal. Your rogue stats are good too. The Barbarian probably doesn't need any more vitality than it starts with (the class gets insane base HP/LVL), instead go for dex so it won't miss so often. Bear form on alchemist gives +50 strength so you don't really need anything but willpower there, but dex is probably more valuable than vitality since alchemist class has good HP/LVL.

I'd do:
15/10/13/12
21/11/14/07
08/17/13/10
11/12/10/17

Perfect, thanks again, Greatness !! Surprised I got them as close as I did ... >30 years of playing RPGs finally pays off ;-)
 

Slivers

Barely Literate
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
3
What's the Shield Spell you cast on the Battle Mage? Is it something I have to find or something I can learn from the beginning? I've tried a bunch of spell combos but haven't "learned" anything yet ... maybe I need to give him a Wand / Staff to learn first??!

Sorry for being so question-y :)

Nevermind, just noticed they require Concentration One :)
 
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LeJosh

Savant
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
434
Location
Edinburgh
Here's my new party, cuz theory crafting is fun:

Front:
Insectoid Battle Mage - Chitin Armor/Natural Armor - HeavyWeapons/Armor

Actually doing a melee Battle Mage this time. Max out heavy weapons so he can wield a 2hander and a staff at the same time. The +10 protection from the staff/class bonus is better than any shield for most of the game and the higher energy will let me use the 2handers special attacks more often than even a fighter could. I won't bother casting much spells, only the amazing shield spell, since that combined total of +50 free armor is nothing to sneeze at.

Minotuar Barbarian - Aggressive/Head Hunter - LightWeapons(STR)/Armor

For my other tank it's the typical dual-wielding barbarian. Since the Battle Mage has insanely high innate armor the Barbarian will get to wear most of the better drops. The superior gear and massive healthpool should help him reach similar survivability as the other frontliner. The high STR bonuses from the barb class and headhunter trait make dual-wielding strength-based light weapons the 2nd highest DPS of all weapon types.

Back:
Ratling Rogue - Aggressive/Mutation - LightWeapons(DEX)/Alchemy

I would put a throwing weapon character here, but the way retrieving throwing ammo works in this game has everything you pick up put into the left slot, which is terribly annoying since throwing needs both slots filled due to it's double attack. There's also the problem of having too many characters reliant on strength gear, so instead this will be the DEX character. Due to there being a lot of really good dex gear, like the rogue set/hunter's cloak, DEX based dual-wielders can do some really respectable damage, they just need to be attacking from the back row.

Insectoid Alchemist - Quick/Aura - Fire Spells/Bear Form

Caster's are really strong and useful for most of the early-mid game, but later on damage-wise they fall quite far behind the physical classes. This build gets the best of both worlds. Spend early game as basically a wizard, stacking up on ingredients for later, then once you tire of casting spells switch into near-permanent bear form. With full +energy gear and all the ingredients you stockpiled you can spend pretty much the rest of the game as a overpowered bear who does more damage than anyone else in the group. Just make sure you leveled 3 points into light weapons so your bear claws can attack twice.

It'll be a successful party, the battlemage will soak a good amount of damage.

I'd watch for your Barb missing a lot with the lowered dex, pump a few stats in there or use a crystal flower for the Attribute Pot

Throwing weapons automatically pick up if you have one in hand it seems but backrow Dex/Melee is perfect for damage, lots of good daggers early on also getting dodge decreases global timer on all actions if you're thinking of a dex/evasion guy.

Interesting Alch build, will try it out on my second run.

I like what you've done and it's almost exactly what my second party would be like based on this first run.
 

GriffDeLaGriff

Barely Literate
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
3
1. Yes you have to find a staff/wand. You'll get one very early though, so it's not much of a problem

2. The skills I mentioned weren't really "starting" skills, just things the character use. If you want starting skills, I'd do HeavyWeapons/Accuracy, LightWeapons/Accuracy, LightWeapons/Accuracy, FireMagic/Concentration. Make sure to take the 2nd point of accuracy on the rogue at level 2 so he can attack form the back row. The Bear Form refers to a potion you get a bit farther into the game that lets you transform into a bear. I like this on casters since later on spells start to fall off a bit and since they have very high energy the bear form transformation lasts for a long time. You can craft the potion with FalconSkyre + Mudwort.

3. Alchemy is on the rogue since he has the least amount of other skills that he needs to level. Unlike the front liners he doesn't need an armor skill or concentration, so he can spare the points on alchemy. The alchemist isn't getting it since he needs 3 in lightweapons and 2 in accuracy to attack while in bear form. The Alchemist class bonus (duplicating herbs) works whether or not you have points in the actual alchemy skill or not. Just be sure to keep 1 of each herb in the alchemists inventory to allow them to duplicate, then the rest can go to the rogue.

4. Yes, you will find the alchemy mortar in the second map.

You'll only reach around level 13-15 in the end, so skills points aren't exactly plentiful. I'd prob spend them as so:
Battle Mage: 5 Heavy Weapons, 5 Critical (Scythe DMG), 3 Concentration (Best Staff Req), 3 Accuracy
Barbarian: 5 Light Weapons, 5 Armor, 5 Critical (Backstab), 1 Accuracy (Tome of Wisdom bonus here)
Rogue: 5 Light Weapons (Or Missile if you want), 5 Critical (Backstab), 4 Alchemy (Don't need 5, it's only bombs), 2 Accuracy
Alchemist: 5 Fire Magic (Or 4 fire 1 Air if you want fireball), 5 Concentration, 3 Light Weapons (For Bear Form Dual-Wield), 3 Accuracy

The Battle Mage doesn't actually need the Armor skill, it only gives 20% bonus per armor piece so it's not really worth the skill investment here since you already have tons of armor from class/traits/spells. Equip him with Crystal Armor+Nergal Amulet and your Barbarian with the Meteor Armor and they will both end up with around the same HP and Armor as one another.

As far as what order to level the skills on: For melee focus weapon skills first, accuracy if you find you're missing too often, armor once you have a decent set of it, and alchemy/crit if none of the others are needed. For your alchemist max fire and a few point into concentration at first, then skill up the others when you want to start using bear form.


Ok so I made a new party with some mods to the first one and wow this works very good. The first boss went down alot easier even tho I hadn't started working the magic and stuff at that point, but the tuning I did based on info here really helped!
Looking forward to playing tonight!
 

Rathenn

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Oct 24, 2014
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Rathenn Teldarrix: Human Knight. Maxed out str/vit. Focusing heavy weapons and armor. Healthy/Tough.

Mjalnarr: Minotaur Barbarian. Maxed out str, a little in dex and the rest vit. Focusing throwing weapons. Head Hunter/Muscular.

Tanro'ss: Lizardman Rogue. Maxed out dex, the rest tossed into vit. Focusing light weapons, accuracy. Agile/Evasive.

Draxeth: Insectoid Wizard. Maxed out willpower, rest in vit. Water/Earth magic. Aura/Strong Mind.

Setup: Knight/rogue frontline. Barbarian/Wizard backline. Note: Swapped minotaur to frontline after rogue got traited accuracy for melee hitting from backline.

I find so far that my group is very well-rounded. Able to take enough hits whilst I throw a ton of damage numbers at my enemies. My minotaur, especially, is hitting for extreme damage. 36strength at level 7 + throwing weapons? Insane.

Had I known about WP/Vit not scaling properly, I'd have adjusted stats accordingly. Also should've theory crafted a bit more.. But just wanted the first play-through to be rather laid back.

Definitely going to theory craft and play hardcore mode. Probably skip out on oldschool and ironman, however.
 
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Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
And so, after gaining the nigh-perfect understanding of the system, I can present the strongest party build:

1. Insectoid Battlemage - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Chitin Armor & Natural Armor - Concentration & Fire Magic

Level Ups: Fire > Fire > Concentration > Concentration > Armor > Armor > Armor > Armor > Water > Armor > Athletics > Athletics

Dex from the start because it's better in the long run - you don't need that much Energy on him but, once you gain 4 ranks in armor, those 5 evasion become more or less useful. Armor is crucial - protection is an all or nothing affair so you can't go lightly here. In the crystal set he'll have 150+ protection - now that's what counts. Athletics is simply to amplify the effect of those 150+ protection. And little magic here because he can cast all the best stuff anyway - fireburst, fire shield, force field, shield, darkness, darkbolt. He can also throw bombs - better to waste his time on that than anyone else's. And he'll use magical trinkets (like the crystal shield). Water Magic is for dispel - those pesky Air Elementals. If you find the dispel staff or ethereal dagger before that, it may be skipped and extra level can be put into Athletics. Or you might max out fire simply for the +50 resistance.

2. Lizardman Knight - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Endure Elements & Evasive - Armor & Light Weapons

Level Ups: Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Critical > Armor > Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Armor (+ Dodge > Dodge > Dodge from the skillbooks - it's your main damage dealer through the most of the game so you focus on him)

While on its own evasion is very weak, coupled with a good armor score it becomes rather strong. So that's what we're building here - you take the ability to wear the Reed armor & profit from them, them you enable your backstab, then you prepare to wear heavy armor as that switch is inevitable and you work on your DD capabilites afterwards. See, I dislike the backrow Rogue because he's not utilizing dexterity fully - he's gaining damage from it, but not the defensive capabilities. His evasion goes to waste. Here, yes, he'll have about 6 less damage per hand (which is not that crippling), but he's a great tank, especially after you dump a dozen or so of +DEX potions into him (which you totally should - this guy is a power nexus for your party).

3. Lizardman Fighter - points into Willpower & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Fast Metabolism - Heavy Weapons & Accuracy

Level UPs: Accuracy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical

Yeah, no strength, lol. See, in the end, those 3.75 damage lost from the 5 strength don't matter that much - you want strength, you just gulp a rage potion (they stack with each other, btw). But to do that, you need accuracy which is what we're building here. And willpower is good in the combination with the fast metabolism - we simply can slamdunk more often. Throw in an Archmage set (best set for the fighter, lol) and you're all set up.

4. Lizardman Alchemist - points into Strength & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Aggressive - Throwing Weapons & Alchemy

Level Ups: Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical

Not as good as the minotaur rogue in terms of DPS, but Alch just gives you way too much extra potions to ignore him. And he's still a decent source of DPS.

Btw, it's one insectoid + 3 lizard because you'll find enough + protection items to protect one character reliably, so 4 lizards are probably an overkill.
 

Immortal

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And so, after gaining the nigh-perfect understanding of the system, I can present the strongest party build:

1. Insectoid Battlemage - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Chitin Armor & Natural Armor - Concentration & Fire Magic

Level Ups: Fire > Fire > Concentration > Concentration > Armor > Armor > Armor > Armor > Water > Armor > Athletics > Athletics

Dex from the start because it's better in the long run - you don't need that much Energy on him but, once you gain 4 ranks in armor, those 5 evasion become more or less useful. Armor is crucial - protection is an all or nothing affair so you can't go lightly here. In the crystal set he'll have 150+ protection - now that's what counts. Athletics is simply to amplify the effect of those 150+ protection. And little magic here because he can cast all the best stuff anyway - fireburst, fire shield, force field, shield, darkness, darkbolt. He can also throw bombs - better to waste his time on that than anyone else's. And he'll use magical trinkets (like the crystal shield). Water Magic is for dispel - those pesky Air Elementals. If you find the dispel staff or ethereal dagger before that, it may be skipped and extra level can be put into Athletics. Or you might max out fire simply for the +50 resistance.

2. Lizardman Knight - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Endure Elements & Evasive - Armor & Light Weapons

Level Ups: Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Critical > Armor > Armor > Light > Light > Critical > Critical > Armor (+ Dodge > Dodge > Dodge from the skillbooks - it's your main damage dealer through the most of the game so you focus on him)

While on its own evasion is very weak, coupled with a good armor score it becomes rather strong. So that's what we're building here - you take the ability to wear the Reed armor & profit from them, them you enable your backstab, then you prepare to wear heavy armor as that switch is inevitable and you work on your DD capabilites afterwards. See, I dislike the backrow Rogue because he's not utilizing dexterity fully - he's gaining damage from it, but not the defensive capabilities. His evasion goes to waste. Here, yes, he'll have about 6 less damage per hand (which is not that crippling), but he's a great tank, especially after you dump a dozen or so of +DEX potions into him (which you totally should - this guy is a power nexus for your party).

3. Lizardman Fighter - points into Willpower & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Fast Metabolism - Heavy Weapons & Accuracy

Level UPs: Accuracy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical > Critical

Yeah, no strength, lol. See, in the end, those 3.75 damage lost from the 5 strength don't matter that much - you want strength, you just gulp a rage potion (they stack with each other, btw). But to do that, you need accuracy which is what we're building here. And willpower is good in the combination with the fast metabolism - we simply can slamdunk more often. Throw in an Archmage set (best set for the fighter, lol) and you're all set up.

4. Lizardman Alchemist - points into Strength & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Aggressive - Throwing Weapons & Alchemy

Level Ups: Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Throwing > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Alchemy > Accuracy > Accuracy > Critical > Critical > Critical

Not as good as the minotaur rogue in terms of DPS, but Alch just gives you way too much extra potions to ignore him. And he's still a decent source of DPS.

Btw, it's one insectoid + 3 lizard because you'll find enough + protection items to protect one character reliably, so 4 lizards are probably an overkill.


A Bomb throwing insectoid battle mage in crystal armor who casts fire spells.. With three Lizard Henchmen. Why can't Bioware write shit this good..?
 

Greatness

Cipher
Joined
Mar 17, 2007
Messages
288
Cleared the first few maps with a 4x Alchemist party. Already have 72 bloodcrops. Potions are pretty overpowered. No cooldown and you can use as many in a fight as you want... It's pretty much like Diablo, except you can also buff yourself to insane amounts. 50% cooldown reduction, near infinite strength, +25 armor, imba bear form, permanent +stats.

Even a full protection specced BattleMage or Knight would only have a negligible amount of additional protection over an alchemist, but the alchemist will have far far more health potions to burn through, and thus is is far more survivable, especially if you take the 2x healing trait.

Not to mention with rage potion stacking you could 1shot any boss in the game. Just with a scythe and around 10 rage potions (which you have tons of) you're looking at ~3000 dmg crits.

And then there's the crazy overpowered Bombs... Did you know you can attack from the inventory screen with these? No cooldown at all, just throw them to your hearts content. Freeze an entire room with frost bombs and kill them at your own leisure, or just craft a stack of llightning bombs and spam throw them while you kite an enemy around a room, doing 100+ dmg with each one at no cooldown. You can even attack under water with them.
 
Last edited:

Greatness

Cipher
Joined
Mar 17, 2007
Messages
288
And so, after gaining the nigh-perfect understanding of the system, I can present the strongest party build:
1. Insectoid Battlemage - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Chitin Armor & Natural Armor
2. Lizardman Knight - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Endure Elements & Evasive
3. Lizardman Fighter - points into Willpower & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Fast Metabolism
4. Lizardman Alchemist - points into Strength & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Aggressive
Very defensive party. I find even with all the resists/protection I still have to tile-dance most of the time, so why not just kill everything as fast as possible with a more offensive party? Just for the sake of discussion here's my thoughts/suggestions:

Insectoid Battlemage - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Chitin Armor & Natural Armor
This one is pretty standard, only change I might do is to take Quick over Natural Armor. +5 Armor compared to your 150 or whatever is like a 3% increase. The 10% lower cooldowns on the other hand is an effect that's very hard to acquire (only 2 other sources in the game), so trading 10% DPS boost for 3% protection nerf might be worth it.

Lizardman Knight - points into Dexterity & Vitality - Endure Elements & Evasive
I agree evasion can be nice, but really you're only getting 5 more and a couple points of protection by being a Knight. Compared to a Barbarian at end game you're looking at +5 evasion +15 protection vs a Barbs +65 Health and +15 strength. I guess this one is just preference, but I'd go with the Barb. It's additional health pool is frontloaded for easier early game and STR based Light Weapons are IMO better, because that they don't suffer as much from enemy armor and are easier to use optimally whilst tile-dancing (and as you pointed out - strength is a lot easier to buff than dexterity).

3. Lizardman Fighter - points into Willpower & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Fast Metabolism
I've found the energy gain on Fast Metabolism to be very insignificant, the 2x healing potion effect is probably it's main draw, but this is back row and won't really need them. Since you're already wearing the Archmage set here (+40 resist all) why not instead go for a Minotuar or Ratling? You'd get a pretty huge damage increase from Mino STR+HeadHunter or at least more dex/str/will from Mutation/Cheese.

4. Lizardman Alchemist - points into Strength & Dexterity - Endure Elements & Aggressive
Why throwing if not a rogue? I think throwing is meant for rogue's whom spam special attacks with them, but you already have a fighter here so you won't really have time for that. The double attack is nice and all, but the actual throwing weapons have really bad DPS, especially since you can't use the same one in both hands without dealing with annoyances. I'd think (for setting up backstabs) either missile or a different magic school would be better here, or another light weapons user just for Bear Form abuse.
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
Very defensive party. I find even with all the resists/protection I still have to tile-dance most of the time, so why not just kill everything as fast as possible with a more offensive party?

Because the large part of the game is situated in the narrow corridors that actually disallow waltzing? Especially when another "you take the gem/push the switch/whatever and tons of monsters surround you" occurs - there are tons of situations where you are forced to stand and fight. And it's not that defensive - both Battle Mage & Knight will be constantly useful in combat.

This one is pretty standard, only change I might do is to take Quick over Natural Armor. +5 Armor compared to your 150 or whatever is like a 3% increase. The 10% lower cooldowns on the other hand is an effect that's very hard to acquire (only 2 other sources in the game), so trading 10% DPS boost for 3% protection nerf might be worth it.

That would've been worth it if high energy pool in this game were achievable. Since they're not, everything is very expensive and, by the end of the game, your battle mage is not a damage dealer but a source of crowd control (which you don't need to recast that often), the quick does very little for the casters. And 5% is not 3% at all - the more protection you have, the more effective you become, so by the end of the game it's gonna be at least 10% extra survivability (often higher). Not to mention the much easier early game (which, in this game, is as hard as the late).

I agree evasion can be nice, but really you're only getting 5 more and a couple points of protection by being a Knight. Compared to a Barbarian at end game you're looking at +5 evasion +15 protection vs a Barbs +65 Health and +15 strength. I guess this one is just preference, but I'd go with the Barb. It's additional health pool is frontloaded for easier early game and STR based Light Weapons are IMO better, because that they don't suffer as much from enemy armor and are easier to use optimally whilst tile-dancing (and as you pointed out - strength is a lot easier to buff than dexterity).

Once again, the more evasion & protection you have, the more effective they become. It's not just 5 evasion, it's not just 5 protection. And you're not accounting that Dexterity, as an attribute, is much superior to the strength - you're gaining extra evasion & accuracy from it, hence more survivability and no need to invest in the Accuracy skill. It's quite obvious that you dump all the crystal flowers into your dual-wielder knight.

I've found the energy gain on Fast Metabolism to be very insignificant, the 2x healing potion effect is probably it's main draw, but this is back row and won't really need them. Since you're already wearing the Archmage set here (+40 resist all) why not instead go for a Minotuar or Ratling? You'd get a pretty huge damage increase from Mino STR+HeadHunter or at least more dex/str/will from Mutation/Cheese.

Because 90 resistance is more than five times better than 40? And the damage increase is insignificant - the Minotaur with 5 skulls (because that's what you have through most of the game) will have 7.5 damage over the lizard. Considered we're fighting 300+ hp monsters constantly, that's nothing.

Why throwing if not a rogue? I think throwing is meant for rogue's whom spam special attacks with them, but you already have a fighter here so you won't really have time for that. The double attack is nice and all, but the actual throwing weapons have really bad DPS, especially since you can't use the same one in both hands without dealing with annoyances. I'd think (for setting up backstabs) either missile or a different magic school would be better here, or another light weapons user just for Bear Form abuse.

Because throwing deals more damage than missile even without special attacks spam? I dunno how you calculated the dps here. And Bear form abuse should be done with a properly built battlemage.
 

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