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Touhou Labyrinth of Touhou: Hardcore PC dungeon-crawler - See OP for links etc.

Damned Registrations

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Thanks. Although since I was using spells with particularly fast animations, it was more like 30-40% faster battles. Most of the time spent is the battle intro/outro and the text popups. Still saves about half an hour of my time though.
Edit: Fucker is dead. Highest level was 100. Barely made it. Tenshi is SO fucking cheesily OP. Also, I finally used Marisa again. She's been warming the benches almost since I got 13 people.
Edit 2: Next floor is a cakewalk by comparison. Almost everything is slow, weak, and has poor affinities, but gives tons of xp. And ZOMG the items. Some of my characters are scaring me now. Even Aya is cranking out major damage, and Orin is hitting like Suwako but has twice the speed, more hp, sp and tp, and triple the mind. And Flandre... holy fucking fuck. Makes Patchy and Marisa look like Wriggle on offense.
 

Introdeker

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Kawaii Theurgist said:
@ Renegen
The skills are, again, quite varied, and the formulas are quite transparent, which makes picking which spell to use for each situation and what stats to develop for every character a matter of planning and number crunching goodness...

Just three quick questions: Do you consider simple arithmetic formulae like 3a + 2b – 1.5 c – 0.75 d, where a and b are character stats while c and d are hidden monster stats, as “number crunching”? In the case of an affirmative answer, would you consider revealing your age and educational level? Given that c and d are not revealed to the player but can be approximately guessed by trial and error, do you think that choosing the highest value of na + mb ( or the 3a + 2b of the example) against any approximate value of (-oc -pd) can be described as “planning”?

Kawaii Theurgist said:
@ Renegen
And the game is brutally challenging...
Kawaii Theurgist said:
@ Renegen
Character development is simple and to the point. Each character has a growth rate and a set of skills, and there's no changing that. You must study their skills, resistances, weaknesses and then develop them on the way you believe more convenient to exploit those strenghts and cover those weaknesses

I was a little surprised by prevalent opinion that this makes for complexity. I don't see how a game can be "simple and to the point" and challenging at the same time. Considering you have 12 active character slots, would you call bringing a wide array of characters with different strengths and switching them as needed "planning"? How about using the guy with high hp and def but low atk as your tank, while preserving the wimpy but dangerous wizard for a more protected positions, doest that require spreadsheet comparasion and number crunching?
 

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Thanks for the tips and tricks, guys!

Overweight Manatee said:
You know you can disable the spell animations to make the battles about 5x faster, right? Check config.exe, second checkbox.

config.exe, you say? :oops:
 
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Damn, that floor 18 boss is pretty unfair. A 15 min fight in which he can randomly decide to use Rasetsu Fist on any character at any time to deal ~6k damage no matter what when just about everyone other than Meiling has 4-5k health is not cool. Problem is, I'm not sure if this is an unintentionally bad boss design or an intentional parody of bad boss design, you can't tell with these games. :roll:

Crooked Bee said:
Thanks for the tips and tricks, guys!

Overweight Manatee said:
You know you can disable the spell animations to make the battles about 5x faster, right? Check config.exe, second checkbox.

config.exe, you say? :oops:

Should be in the folder where you installed the game.
 

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Overweight Manatee said:
Damn, that floor 18 boss is pretty unfair. A 15 min fight in which he can randomly decide to use Rasetsu Fist on any character at any time to deal ~6k damage no matter what when just about everyone other than Meiling has 4-5k health is not cool. Problem is, I'm not sure if this is an unintentionally bad boss design or an intentional parody of bad boss design, you can't tell with these games. :roll:

This game is so meta! ;)

Overweight Manatee said:
Crooked Bee said:
Thanks for the tips and tricks, guys!

Overweight Manatee said:
You know you can disable the spell animations to make the battles about 5x faster, right? Check config.exe, second checkbox.

config.exe, you say? :oops:

Should be in the folder where you installed the game.

Yeah, I know. With my :oops:, I just meant I never noticed there even was config.exe until you mentioned it, so unobservant of me.
 

Damned Registrations

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I noticed the config.exe myself, but didn't dick around with it except for the slider since it wasn't translated. (Slider is supposed to be music volume but doesn't work, which is aggravating because the game's music is really quite loud.)

For the floor 18 boss, only tip I 'll offer is blow a lot of damage on him very early. He gets much less dangerous after you deal the first chunk of damage, and Tenshi can start tanking stuff then. By the time my team was leveled enough to not pop 3 characters every time he used Heavenly Demise, Tenshi was pretty much invincible to anything but Rasetsu fist for the entire fight. Worry about buffing everyone after that move is off the table.

As far as the query about the game's complexity, I'll just throw this out there for anyone else reading: The characters are very well designed and not nearly as interchangable as something like say, MMORPG classes. For tanks for example at this point I have access to:

Tank 1: High HP, high defense, weak mind (Magic resistance), weak attack power but with one attack that pierces defenses well, and a strong self healing ability, and a very inexpensive targetted heal that removes status ailments and heals few hp.

Tank 2: High HP, defense, attack, mind and speed. Only two moves: A single target phsyical attack with no particularly special properties, and a self buffing spell that raises attack, defense and mind values but can cause paralysis and poisoning to self as well.

Tank 3: Incredibly high HP, neglible defenses, high attack but low speed. Several moves that have a chance of causing instant death with various elements, targeting schemes and levels of power, one of which also causes a slew of status effects, lowering enemy speed, defense, mind, and can cause paralysis and poison as well as instant death.

Tank 4: Low HP, incredibly high defense and mind, low attack and mediocre speed. 2 Averagish physical nature element attacks, an expensive single target spell with the unique ability to remove enemy buffs, and a self targetted buff that massively increases defense and mind, but can also lower speed massively, cause paralysis and silence.


Now, based on those 4 alone, there's obvious interaction between the healer and the two self buffers with drawbacks. Aside from that, equipment options include items to increase resistance against any status ailment or ability debuffs, which mitigate these effects as well. In addition to THAT, paralysis and slowing isn't necesarily even bad for these characters, since buffs degrade by 20% of their current level every turn that character takes, so a slowed paralysed tank with +100% def and mind is pretty much invincible for a very long time. On top of that, some of that characters have interesting dilemmas on where to place stat points. Tanks 2 and 3 can serve as effective damage dealers if you build their attack power, but tank 3 could also benefit from speed in order to apply debuffs, or HP to tank better. Tank 2 can benefit from attack, defense, speed, hp, almost anything. You could specialize in one area (Making her a physical wall for example, or a very faster tank specialized in switching other characters ina dn out) or use moderation. Tank one's healing abilities are based off of her attack power, so raising that might be worthwhile if you want to usse her as a tanky healer, or you could make her more tanky, or faster for more reactive ailment curing. That was just 4 tanks, out of a roster of 40 characters. 4 of the most similar characters you could find are that different.

Aside from all that, all 4 obviously have specific advantages and disadvantages both versus specific enemies and paired with specific characters. There are other characters with buffs, that suffer from ailments, that cure ailments, that heal, that have incredibly high or low speed, that can cause debuffs or ailments with varying levels or power against various stats. Frankly if the game's stats were scaled for player versus player, it would be one of the most interesting competitive games I've ever seen. As it stands, it easily has the best blobber combat and character building I've ever seen.
 

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Thanks for the excellent write-up, DR. Also, for those curious, Tank 1 is Meiling, Tank 2 is Remilia, Tank 3 is Komachi, and Tank 4 is Tenshi, if I'm not mistaken.

When using tanks, one should also take into account there are spells which ignore defense in this game and, say, Tenshi is pretty much screwed against those.

DamnedRegistrations said:
Frankly if the game's stats were scaled for player versus player, it would be one of the most interesting competitive games I've ever seen. As it stands, it easily has the best blobber combat and character building I've ever seen.

:love:

Especially amazing given that this is an indie game, isn't it.
 
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Unfortunately, he still seems to use Rasetsu Fist in later forms, just very rarely. I was on my 5th form and he went after Reimu with it, that ended any hope of my run getting finished instantly :( . I'm only level 87 on her though, hopefully if I grind 5 levels or so most of my characters will be able to survive a hit. Start of Heavenly Demise isn't too big of a problem though so long as Reimu + Yukari + Ran can keep the party's defenses at +70%ish or higher.

Sadly as far as level grinding goes I'm afraid I've somewhat gimped myself. Since I've relied pretty much on nothing but Reimu/Marisa/Chen/Cirno/Patchouli throughout the whole game for random battles a large number of my other characters are badly underleveled. Most of the others I use are primarily for status effects and already have high HP, but its ugly when I bring out Kaguya and she takes 2x as much damage as everyone else.

As it stands, it easily has the best blobber combat and character building I've ever seen.

Not sure exactly what you classify as blobber combat so I won't comment on that, but the character building is incredibly weak. Characters are essentially already built for you. There is good character differentiation but the game does that for you, you have no hand in deciding what a character becomes good at or not.
 

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AFAIK characters all gain the same XP, regardless of being in the party or not. Only issue will be whether you've spent any skillpoints on them. Edit: After checking my roster it seems I was wrong. They must be damned close though. Patchy only has 45k over Suwako, and they both level at the exact same rate and I hardly ever use Suwako outside of boss fights, while I used patchy for all my recent grinding, which was hundreds of thousands of xp, possibly a million. And chen hasn't even been in the rearguard for the last 50 levels, but is still the most leveled by far. Edit 3: Went and checked in game myself, all 12 party members get full xp, everyone waiting back at the mansion gets 80%. Which isn't too bad, considering you get more and more xp the further you go anyways, so only getting 80% from levels 1-17 can easily be rectified just by being in the group for floor 18.

Character building probably should have been rephrased to be qualified as 'for a blobber'. Obviously it's not on par with roguelikes, SPECIAL system, and all sorts of other crap. I think there's a lot more depth than you're giving it credit though. While the difference between dumping points into MAG, MND or SPD on Patchy looks small on paper, in practice it's the difference between her being only useful as a swap in nuker for bosses, an anti magic wall, or a trash sweeper. Equipment plays into it a lot too. I often lose her because she gets poisoned myself, and then takes some trivial 30 damage hit. If she were faster, she'd kill the trash before it can poison, if she had more hp, she'd have more than 1 hp when she gets hit again, if I equipped her with poison resistance, it'd be a non issue. But I've cranked every single point I can into her MAG, on gear and levels, so that when she casts a spell, everything falls down. You may have built her the same way; but I'm sure if we compared overall rosters they'd be extremely different. It's a far cry from Might and Magic, where all you really do is divide equipment and stat potions. I'd even put it ahead of something like Baldurs Gate. I mean, how many different ways can you build Edwin or Minsc? How much of a difference does it make whether your magic using main character has 14/16/18 DEX/CON/INT or 10/18/18? You're going to learn all the same spells and wear all the same items. Your weapon proficiencies don't mean squat. You can't build up your saving throws or your AC or your Hp significantly at all.

Edit 2: Here's a few of my characters I've used recently, equipped for a boss fight. How do they compare to your builds on the same characters?

touhoucomp.jpg


Note to self: Stop lowering image quality to reduce file size, douchebucket does it automatically and makes things look REALLY shitty.

I suppose I should mention while I'm at it, I considering who and how much to focus your resources on from within your roster to be part of character building. Even if we both build Patchy for pure magic, there's a major difference if I used half of all my skillpoints on her and the best items, while you just used a standard share. It's one more thing that changes how you play significantly.
 
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According to the wiki, characters in the active party gain full XP, characters in reserve gain 90%, and characters not in the party gain 80%. Remilia has about the same level rate as Patchouli and yet she is lvl 71 vs lvl 80 so its definitely a big effect not having people in the party at all, though she was the first one I dropped and so probably has the most pronounced difference in level. Granted actually leveling them wouldn't take that long, the problem is not knowing whether its even worth it. Its hard to judge relative power level of unequally leveled characters so I can't be sure whether I would even want to level them in the first place before inputting the time required to level them. Unless I actually found the formulas and extrapolated their effective strength at later levels with equipment and item and skill modifiers, but thats such a PITA that its almost better just leveling them.

My argument against character building is that there is no real "building". Since level up points are only worth 2% compared to 3% for skill points and because skill points are so abundant, my Reimu has +180% to stats from level ups compared to +1245% from skill point investment. Granted I've focused lots of skill points into her, but skill points are so easy to come by that I could easily raise someone else 3/4ths as high after 10-15 mins of grinding enemies. Because of this there is no "building up" of a character, when I found that Cirno was too slow to paralyze enemies in the next level I easily took her up +40 SPD skill points (which is equivalent to +60 levels worth of investment into SPD), easily sidestepping the problem. Character building would be more important if you couldn't easily dump points into someone to instantly raise them to what you want, but you can. Its only meaningful if your characters are planned and built up to have meaningful strengths and weaknesses, but the skill points issue mean there is no need for long term planning. Any (relative) weakness can be strengthened instantly because you end up practically swimming skill points.

Comparing it against what I would call a fairly blobby combat system in SMT: Nocturne, your character there has hard limits to what they can do based on how you build him. You can't step back and say "Magic isn't working, I need 30 more points in Strength" and be able to do that instantly. Heck, you can't do it at all unless you grind a shit ton or make that decision very early. You have to make very real decisions early on into how to build your character and, to an extent, your party since overhauling your group's abilities is something that is massively expensive and not a trivial expense of skill points as it is here. As far as your comparisons to M&M and Baldur's Gate, a huge part of the party building in M&M is simply the character creation itself. As for Baldur's Gate, lets not intentionally compare a game based around dungeon crawling with a story based RTwP clusterfuck. How about we talk about ToEE? Because 3E D&D anything blows Labyrinth of Touhou out of the water in terms of party building. Heck, IWD2 still does that even with the RTwP clusterfuckyness.

To paraphrase, character building is very weak. Character customization? Yeah, it has lots of that, but for the most part is it fairly shallow and simplistic.
 

Damned Registrations

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The thing is, this isn't a game where 10% more of a stat is 10% better. The difference between 200 SPD and 220 SPD is going before or after the enmy has taken out a party member. So if you've already put 80 points into speed on Komachi, and she's been bumped from 160 SPD to 200, you need another 40 points worth. But that 40 points worth is going to cost more than the previous 80 did. So you have an oppurtunity cost; you can either have 40 in SPD and ATK and HP and 30 in each on another 2 characters,, or 120 in SPD. This is what makes the level points important; if you've dumped 60 levels into speed, you'll be at that 220 mark. Unless you're willing to give up obscene amounts of stats on other characters, you're not going to get it by skillpoints alone. Same thing applies to other stats. If you need 7000 ATK to even start doing damage, going from 8000 to 9000 just tripled your damage. And again, there's a huge difference between getting that extra power from levels, or a million skillpoints that could have made an entire extra character viable.

And the wiki is apparently out dated, because I recorded the xp levels in game before and after a single fight and checked. Backrow got full xp.
 
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The difference between 200 and 220 SPD only matters for random encounters, and you can easily beat those through other less-ridiculous means. No one is trying to make Patchouli outspeed the fastest enemies because that isn't her job. Against bosses (the actual hard part of the game), the difference is hardly there over an extended time period. Furthermore, equipment can easily be changed around. If the only time the +% from levels would matter is if you already have +240% boost from skill points and +100% boost from equipment and you still need that another 10% more speed from all of your levels to make or break the situation, you are obviously using the wrong tool for the problem. The example for attack strength is pretty much why putting points into anything that isn't increasing damage is dumb, because everything else as best scales linearly or worse compared to attack strength which scales almost exponentially in most cases.

That said, you highlight yet another weakness of the system: anything other than dumping level ups into a single stat is horrifically stupid. That is, +20 HP and +20 DEF is 100x weaker than +40 HP or +40 DEF due to how the +40 in one stat buys more effective skill points. Thats pretty much anti-building right there.
 
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:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :rage: :rage: :rage: :rage: :rage:

Died again because I ran out of TP switching characters back and forth. Ended with Yukari permanently stuck in the 4th slot and she just wouldn't die, so I had to switch more vulnerable characters into slot #3 where they got wiped out. Got up to the last form too.

EDIT: more :x :x :rage: :rage:

Yukari was only at +1 TP too, buying just 5 more TP cost like 10k of stat points.
 

Damned Registrations

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It matters in boss fights too. When you switch a character in, you don't get 10% more of a turn before the boss attacks you, or 10% more of a turn before the character you wanted to buff has already acted. You either get the turn in time or you don't. Having the turns happen when you want them to is far far more important than having 6 extra turns over the course of a 60 turn fight. Aside from that, enemies in random encounters vary their speed massively. Some of them can still outspeed Chen, others are slower than Patchy with no speed gear on at all. You don't need to make her a ninja for the boost to be useful. Having her finish off an extra type of enemy so your speedier characters can recover SP in those fights instead is plenty helpful.

Just for a reference of the scale we're talking about here, I tried dumping all my skillpoints into Patchy's speed. She was at 160 speed, with 40 levels into it from skillpoints, and AFAIK none put in from levels. 230k skillpoints bought me another 24 levels, bumping her up to 173. By comparison, those same skillpoints could have brought another character I hadn't leveled up yet from 1 to 83 speed. Or I could have sunk just 36 of her 88 levels into speed.

As far as putting everything into one stat... obviously if you want both stats leveled just as much, splitting is going to be better. Using the same character (Who has identical DEF and MND growth) I can either get DEF to 40 and MND to 79, or DEF to 65 and MND to 66. Trying to correct for having dumped all your points in DEF instead of splitting them would cost more, and if you're going to correct with items instead, having your stats even to begin with gives you more flexibility, instead of having the option of being a mediocre tank to physical and magic or excellent and physical and sucky at magic, you have those two as well as sucky at physical and excellent at magic. Ignoring the fact that items don't come tailored to whatever stats you want them to have (I can get a 50/50 DEF/MND item, but not a 100 DEF or 100 MND item right now.) Putting all your points in one stat is only more effective if you actually NEED that stat. If a character never needs to be healed, extra hp are a waste, even if it 'saved' you a lot of skillpoints it would have cost to get the same HP total with skillpoints.

I'd consider it easier to overhaul a team on Nocturne than in here. While the main character is screwed for changing (Less for stat points, which your magatama can swing wildly, than the skills you've learned and turned down, which can never be relearned once you forget them) it's pretty simply to recruit a new demon or buy one out of a book to get a skill or stat distribution you need. But most of the stats don't really even matter, team building is primarily set around skills and elemental weaknesses, and it's not really difficult to pick up dekunda when you need it for a boss fight, or turn your ice caster into a healer. Certainly much less of a time investment than it'd take me to turn Marisa into a nuker worth using on par with Ran, whom I've been using incessantly since I got her, just so I have master spark available for boss fights. It'd have to grind an hour or two to make her equally useful. Just like I'd need an hour or two of grinding to give Tenshi enough hp to live through Rasetsu fist since I never gave her hp through leveling and the skillpoint costs are a bitch. And those same points could instead be used on someone I've already been using, and will use again in fights afterwards. In Nocturne I can run out and catch something with the right spell, buy a low level monster of the same type to make an elemental, and a low level elemental to make one of those stat boosting spirit thingies, and use that to add the spell. Finding the right creature probably takes 10-15 minutes (You can always look through your own summoning book to see what they have, assuming you don't have some level 10 demon with dekunda anyways) and the cash you get while hunting for it will pay for the fodder demons.

I've never played ToEE, but KotC uses 3rd edition DnD rules too, which I'm fairly familiar with. Most of your building options aren't really options. Whether to give your warrior a str or con point every 4 levels makes almost no difference. Taking power attack and cleave and weapon specialization is a no brainer. Improved grapple is never going to be worth a damn, neither is improved fortitude or +4 hp or whatever toughness gives. Sorcerors are the only magic using class in vanilla 3rd edition that have to think about what spells to learn (everyone else learns everything), but that's about the only decision making process that really seems important to me after you've picked your party members, who aren't going to change for the rest of the game. KotC had item enchanting too, but that mostly boiled down to giving everyone the best stat boosting items you could afford and filling every equipment slot ASAP, since you couldn't have any other amulets besides +con, and it'd be stupid to spend all your cash on making one really nice weapon that does 2 more damage at the cost of 80 HP spread around your party.

Another point in favour of this is that making 2-3 important decisions for each of 20-30 characters (Some of them are admittedly no brainers, but otherwise you need to decide if they should have which equipment or it's better used elsewhere, whether to go for offense or survivability, if they should be faster or slower than certain other party members, etc.) is more engaging than making 3 or 4 important decisions for each of 5-8 characters.

Also: lol at 5 more TP costing only 10k. Was it at level 1? Nobody even makes it into my party with any stat at level 1. Everything gets leveled until it costs at least 500 more per point. I can has reading now. Some of his attacks drain TP in that fight, so pay attention if anyone is sitting at 3 points, if he uses his non elemental asshole skills on them they won't be able to switch even if they live. I came close to losing for the same reason, but luckily the one that got stuck in was Tenshi, who sat around soaking up attacks from his last form long enough for Marisa to be switched in to fire Master Spark at full SP twice. That and I pulled off a very lucky debuffer spell from Tenshi that wiped out all his +100% stats except DEF.
 

PorkaMorka

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For the record the party customization in KoTC is nothing compared to TOEE.

Because KoTC only had Fighter Mage and Cleric and none of those want to multiclass with each other.

TOEE has the full set of classes and thus you could exploit 3rd edition's powerful multiclassing to a huge degree. Plus TOEE had a bigger party and so more room for specialized characters. Plus TOEE had a more full set of feats and more of the rules implemented. Also TOEE had skills which is a whole 'nother thing to min max.

At least for me, building a party in TOEE involved creating a huge text file in order to map out the optimal class order, feats and the needed stats to get the build I wanted for each character. Several hours of planning. Sadly I don't have it anymore but you can get an idea of the builds that were possible here: http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/sh ... p?t=320614

I forget all my builds but you could do really crazy stuff in TOEE like fighter/barbarian/rogue polearm sneak attack specialists and even creating 5 ridiculously min maxed guys there'd still be several cool builds you had no room for.

KOTC was just "1 hand fighter, 2 hand fighter, Mage, Cleric" done.
 

Damned Registrations

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Ah, that sounds pretty awesome. I'm used to the ruleset being implemented rather sloppily in DnD games. Best I've seen personally was incursion, and that focuses everything on a single character. That said, ToEE is hardly a blobber, and being behind it doesn't mean there's no room for depth. I'll probably replay this after I'm done with it, and I don't doubt I'll be able to make far far more effective teams knowing how to best combine everyone now.
 
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DamnedRegistrations said:
stuff about stats

Problem is, you are nitpicking at fringe cases here. Barely outspeeding your enemies DOES give you a huge advantage in all random battles. But did you, from floor 1, plan out all of your characters to barely outspeed each important enemy of every floor? No? In that case, +10% speed translates into a +10% chance to outspeed an enemy on average. Which, drumroll, translates into +10% damage on average. Otherwise you could make the exact same case for +10% damage in all instances, because an enemy that is left with 1% health requires 2 hits to kill while if you do 110% damage it requires 1 hit (making it 100% more efficient!), but clearly you can't just say that +10% damage is worth anything more than +10% damage on average (though you can clearly say that +10% ATK is worth far more than +10% damage on average). If you don't know the specific breakpoints and plan for them, all you can do is dump points into it and hope it works, which always works out to a +1% = +1% on average. This is also mostly true for bosses, as their attacks have various delay times which can't be predicted by the player with the extra factors of unpredictable delay times for switching characters in and their actions times etc etc.

Spreading stats is fairly silly because a character that is mediocre at everything is much less useful than a character that is really good at one thing. The DEF/MND for tanks like Tenshi is an exception since both stats are pretty much 100% equally important as you can't control what hits the front character, though you could of course tabulate a list of all the toughest bosses and figure out which defense type is most useful overall (I'm disregarding that). But the same is not true for just about every other position, which means the massive skill point inefficiency overrules all else.

stuff about overhauling characters

My point is that you never actually need to overhaul a team in Labyrinth. As long as you haven't totally screwed up your priorities and/or thought EVA worked, you are hardly outmatched by anything. The only time you seriously get your ass handed to you in Labyrinth is by being very underleveled or using your team badly. There are no bosses where you literally don't have the counter to their skills in your repertoire, the only problems you can have with team building is that your stats are 10-15% lower than someone else. At most, you need to slightly change your item setup and/or grind 2 levels and you are on an even footing.

And overhauling teams in Nocturne is damned expensive in summoning costs. Grinding levels is much harder and spending that cash on summoning makes it significantly more difficult to afford the magatama needed to give you the skills you want for yourself.

Another point in favour of this is that making 2-3 important decisions for each of 20-30 characters (Some of them are admittedly no brainers, but otherwise you need to decide if they should have which equipment or it's better used elsewhere, whether to go for offense or survivability, if they should be faster or slower than certain other party members, etc.) is more engaging than making 3 or 4 important decisions for each of 5-8 characters.

The difference being that in Labyrinth your decisions don't much affect how you use a character, just how good they are at what they already do. What happens if you give Tenshi all ATK? Well first off someone nearby should smack you for being a retard, but in the end she still tanks pretty damned well and can't attack for crap. This is different from other games in which new skills or abilities can actually let you approach fights in different ways. ToEE would be a heck of a lot less interesting if every mage started with every spell in their spell book and simply picked between +1 spell damage boosts every level.

Also: lol at 5 more TP costing only 10k. Was it at level 1? Nobody even makes it into my party with any stat at level 1. Everything gets leveled until it costs at least 500 more per point. I can has reading now. Some of his attacks drain TP in that fight, so pay attention if anyone is sitting at 3 points, if he uses his non elemental asshole skills on them they won't be able to switch even if they live. I came close to losing for the same reason, but luckily the one that got stuck in was Tenshi, who sat around soaking up attacks from his last form long enough for Marisa to be switched in to fire Master Spark at full SP twice. That and I pulled off a very lucky debuffer spell from Tenshi that wiped out all his +100% stats except DEF.

I simply wasn't paying attention at all. Should have caught it since I was really overusing Yukari, switching her in to cast buffs even when the ones in place were at >50% just because she had tons of energy and none of my attackers could handle the attack that was coming in half a second. At least this is one of the bosses Marisa and Master Spark can actually be useful in. Seems like 2/3rds of the bosses in the midgame nulled all damage from her.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Messages
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While giving her ATK would indeed be retarded, what happens if you give her HP? She survives defense piercing attacks suddenly. SPD lets her swap characters more frequently and buff herself before she gets hit. Both are valid things to improve over DEF and MND depending on how you expect to use her. And for items, you have tradeoffs between adding even more DEF/MND, HP, SPD, ailment resists or elemental affinities. And due to prohibitive costs, you not going to be able to make up the difference to get similar performance out of a dozen characters you've tweaked like this the wrong way, without overlevelling. Obviously overlevelling renders all the stats pointless. Anyone will dwarf anyone in any stat given enough time and effort. That doesn't mean the chance to save yourself hours of extra work doesn't count for anything.

By comparison, what do I do with chracters in MM3-5? Zilch. They gain levels and wear whatever equipment you find is decent. They learn every spell you find. You put all your Might pots on the first two characters and distribute everything else pretty much evenly between anyone who gains any benefit at all. This is generally what blobbers have for options. Most any Jrpg, wizardry without multiclassing, gold box games, fallout, infinity engine games...

Nocturne I generally just keep fusing crap into whatever has the best resists. Having the element a boss is weak to (If it has one) is pretty much a given, since everyone gets 8 skills and you have massive control over what those skills are. Most fights revolve around some combination of buffs + debuffs turning the boss into a limp wristed gimp anyways. And summoning costs are REALLY cheap if you don't level up and save elementals. Which are all you ever need for fusing pretty much, them and capturing stuff.

In the end, it boils down to how many possible meangingfully different configurations can you have at various points during the game. And I see a hell of a lot more here than in most games. Hell, the party selection alone is more complicated than most game's party selection + character customizing combined. Level up points, skills points and equipment just add more and more layers. Next time I play through Patchy is getting a lot more speed buffs, and it's going to make much more than a 10% difference in how much shit she kills. What am I going to do different the next time I play Nocturne? Field a team weak against every element with no buff spells? Not likely. It'll be the same things made for the same reasons because most of the crap you can make is crap and most of the stuff you need is easily attainable without going out of your way. It's fun figuring out how to make those teams the first time, but theres not a lot of other viable options. I'm not going to win the game 20 levels sooner by making the right choices. I bet the next time I play through this I won't be stopping to grind levels for floor 18's boss. And my levels will probably be even lower when I get to him since I'll do less backtracking and resupplying.
 
Joined
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3,520
I think you are massively overestimating the differences in attribute allocations. In the end, the difference between 4k and 3.5k in a stat in Labyrinth isn't anything different from
I'd even put it ahead of something like Baldurs Gate. I mean, how many different ways can you build Edwin or Minsc? How much of a difference does it make whether your magic using main character has 14/16/18 DEX/CON/INT or 10/18/18?

By comparison, what do I do with chracters in MM3-5? Zilch. They gain levels and wear whatever equipment you find is decent. They learn every spell you find. You put all your Might pots on the first two characters and distribute everything else pretty much evenly between anyone who gains any benefit at all. This is generally what blobbers have for options. Most any Jrpg, wizardry without multiclassing, gold box games, fallout, infinity engine games...

Its almost like Labyrinth, except here you start out with every spell already learned, you wear whatever equipment you find is ridiculous overpowered, you put lots of skill points into the obvious specializations and then distribute everything else pretty much evenly between anyone who gains any benefit at all. Clearly far more complex. Note: Harder != complex, harder just means greater punishment for failure.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,011
If you're going to simplify the entire party/character building setup to a 10% difference in one number, I don't know why I bothered trying to argue this with you. :/
 

Introdeker

Novice
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
9
DamnedRegistrations said:
As far as the query about the game's complexity...

(...)That was just 4 tanks, out of a roster of 40 characters. 4 of the most similar characters you could find are that different.

Aside from all that, all 4 obviously have specific advantages and disadvantages both versus specific enemies and paired with specific characters. There are other characters with buffs, that suffer from ailments, that cure ailments, that heal, that have incredibly high or low speed, that can cause debuffs or ailments with varying levels or power against various stats. Frankly if the game's stats were scaled for player versus player, it would be one of the most interesting competitive games I've ever seen. As it stands, it easily has the best blobber combat and character building I've ever seen.

Final Fantasy is renowned as the easiest series of games ever, even casual games like The Sims get more respect in terms of the demands imposed on the player. The major complaint against FF is that all the player needs to do is press attack until he wins the game. Keep that in mind as you notice this link to a 317kb guide on one of the functions of a single FF6 character. And that’s just one character, the game has dozens. So, how can a game offer this much complexity and still be considered a part of the easiest series ever? The point is that min-maxing and just playing the game effectively are very different activities. But even if you’re min-maxing Labyrinth of Touhou is strictly superficial, even by japanese standards.

I’ll presume that the wiki is correct throughout. For starters, the game may have 40 chars but only 3 equipment slots for each, and only 5 effective stats (apparently evasion doesn’t work). For most characters there’s an obvious choice when choosing between ATK or MAG, so we’re left with only 4 stats. In games where you can’t control who’s getting attacked defense is way worse than offense, this is particularly bad in LoT where the only tough enemies have attacks that hit everyone. If you agree with this you’ll also accept that the most effective party is the one that deals the most damage faster. Buffs (but not really debuffs due to immunities) play a part in this, so you’ll have chars like Sakuya whose only function is to speed the party up and leave. The rest is simple arithmetic, the kind that is glaring to the eyes of any min-maxer.

Just look at the formula to Marisa’s Master Spark: (700% to 1400% MAG) - (50% to 100% T.MND). Or Youmu’s Slash of Eternity: (750% ATK - 150% T.DEF). Add to this Overweight Manatee’s insight that standard stat growths are negligible when compared to the stats you can assign by skill points and you have yourself a golden road to min-maxing LoT: just pick the best attack formulas and pump the stats that make them work (yeah yeah put a little into defensive stats too). I can’t finish these calculations because I don’t know how speed works but if it’s a linear progression (i.e. if a 300 SPD means you attack twice in the time 150 SPD attacks once) then the determining factor in choosing how much to put into MAG (or ATK) versus SPD will be SP. One of the things that makes this game so much simpler is character rotation, as you don't even need to choose between the chars, just charge in with the heavy hitters then put them in the reserve regenerating while you keep going with tanks and healers. Another simplifying factor is that there are only 5 char types (tank, witch, melee attacker, buffer, and healer), while in F "Easy" F6 each char had REALLY individual skills (not just 7a -1.5d instead of 3a - 0.5d) and could be REALLY customized in the spell department.

Overweight Manatee said:
Note: Harder != complex...
Would you still say that after repeatedly breaking the world record on monochromatic tetris?
 

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