Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Touhou Labyrinth of Touhou: Hardcore PC dungeon-crawler - See OP for links etc.

Discussion in 'jRPG Weeaboo Discussion' started by Crooked Bee, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. Jaesungender: ⚧ Fabulous Moderator Patron

    Jaesun
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    Apparently you cant read? Here, let's try again!


     
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  2. Make America Great Again Jasedegender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I think you are just supposed to do trial & error. However, for players that don't want to there is a (japanese) html document listing all the enemies and their exact stats in the game's installation folder. Failing that, since it's in Japanese, just keep the Wiki open and Alt-Tab as needed.

    I like the game a lot so far. Just cleared floor 1. Not a game for graphics-whores, truly. Ah well, guess some here just aren't hardcore enough for real RPGs.
     
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  3. 1eyedkinggender: ⚧ Erudite

    1eyedking
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    Cut the gay fan-fiction, Jasede. It's really making your reading comprehension suffer.

    I was talking of the coherence's quality. Monsters asking for items is very basic make-believe. To make an example we can all probably relate to: can you imagine goblins asking for Frodo's belongings had they found him in the mountain caves? Probably not, but if they did he could have tricked them as he did with the trolls (read: skill-check) who wanted to eat him (which is believable and coherent).
     
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  4. Jaesungender: ⚧ Fabulous Moderator Patron

    Jaesun
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    Again, you expect a game made in 1988 to have such mechanics?

    Whats next? PONG is shit because it was in black and white and not in color?
     
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  5. 1eyedkinggender: ⚧ Erudite

    1eyedking
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    What's so difficult to code about that? If Diplomacy > 4, then "Urgh, you make head hurt. Leave."

    JESUS CHRIST WE NEED SIX INTEL I7 CORES TO PROCESS SUCH INFORMATION.
     
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  6. Jaesungender: ⚧ Fabulous Moderator Patron

    Jaesun
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    This is how 1eyedking sees cRPG's.
     
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  7. Crooked Beegender: ⚧ wide-wandering bee Patron

    Crooked Bee
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    Sorry, I skipped the last four pages of inanity that suddenly appeared out of nowhere while I was gone from the Codex for a few hours ---

    --- ah yes, 1eyedking ---

    -- but to answer Renegen's question:

    I know I already said that in my OP, and Black Cat said that, too, but still. This game does not require grinding at all, if you're grinding you're doing it wrong. What it requires is combat strategy, such as mastering the use of skills and affinities, of which there are a lot and which are all useful in different situations, mastering the enemies' and player character's strengths and weaknesses, which are really vital in different ways for different combat situations -- you are assembling a team, a party after all, and you must have a well-developed character for every combat role you might need -- developing each character in a way you think useful, managing your equipment and resources such as TP, fine-tuning your team with the character switching mechanics, popping them out of combat when needed for a couple of turns, then popping them in again for them to deliver an attack and be switched out again to avoid dying, all the while keeping track of their HP, SP and TP, as well as the elemental affinities and defense stats. In fact, you can defeat the bosses underleveled with a correct use of tactics, which excludes the grind. And if you can't do that, well, you suck.

    Monsters also have very different sets of skills, affinities and attributes, always keeping things fresh. Also, you must fight the characters you want to recruit first, and they are using the same skills they'll have when recruited, which lets you see those in action first and, as the skills are very diverse, makes you devise new tactics and think hard about the composition of your party in order to deal with them.

    tl; dr No grinfest at all, no, just pure strategy and mastering the system.

    Quoted for those who don't feel like reading through the entire thread.

    The only thing I disagree with is that positioning doesn't matter. It matters, and a lot, at least for a blobber. You must always keep track of your team's positioning as not only do the front-row characters take the most physical damage, so you must build them accordingly, but bosses have different attacks and patterns of attacks, some of which target only the back row characters at certain in-battle moments, making it necessary to cleverly switch in and switch out your back row characters. In fact, at some moments you will want to not have any back-row characters at all (!), which is always a possibility, only to switch them in a moment later to deliver a mighty counterattack.

    This, so much this. It's all about managing numbers in a complex way, not grinding. This isn't a JRPG strictly speaking as it allows for A LOT of customization. In fact, it's all about it.
     
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  8. Crooked Beegender: ⚧ wide-wandering bee Patron

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    Also, since many people seem to have weak google skills, I'm letting ya know the following page has a direct download link for the 3.01 English version of the game:

    http://aceofhearts.weebly.com/english-version-touhou-games.html

    Scroll down to Labyrinth of Touhou and click the large "Download" button on the right.
     
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  9. Make America Great Again Humanity has risen!gender: ⚧ Arcane Patron Repressed Homosexual

    Humanity has risen!
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    Thanks for the tip about this game. I love blobbers, and this looks extremely interesting. I'm going to play it ASAP.

    A bit too anime-ish, but oh well, I completed Etrian Odyssey 1, 2 and 3, so after a while I guess you don't even register the desu stuff anymore.

    So there is no first person view, just some sort of overhead grid?
     
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  10. Damned Registrationsgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    Just finished the second floor. Much better than I expected, wholeheartedly recommend it. Figuring out the basic enemy weaknesses is actually pretty interesting once you have the character variety to make suitible tests. (eg. an enemy suffers very high damage from a mystic elemental pure magic attack but almost no damage at all from a spirit elemental attack of combined physical and magical attributes. A powerful physical attack does medium damage, and a weak physical attack that tends to ignore some defense does almost nothing. Finally a purely magic wind based attack also does massive damage, confirming the enemy has a very high physical defense, but no particular elemental affinity.)

    Boss fights are cool, it's interesting figuring out what their weaknesses are and desperately trying to pull off the win on your first attempt so you don't need to backtrack. Cirno nearly buried me with speed debuffs and paralysis but I managed one last fire attack to finish her off. Finally have enough people that burning off some SP then putting them into reserve to recover is a viable option. (Was actually what gave me that last shot to kill Cirno.)

    Only gripe right now is trivial battles taking a bit longer than I'd like. Makes backtracking through old areas a pain, but I doubt there'll be much need for that.

    Question: Stats seem to be rising quadratically. Since I'm guessing spell costs never change and there's no attacks or equipment to lower your SP, is it a waste in the long run to invest any level up points in SP? Does everyone have 500+ past the midgame anyways?
     
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  11. Overweight Manateegender: ⚧ Scholar

    Overweight Manatee
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    General thoughts so far... (3F atm)

    - Random encounter spawns are annoyingly high. Cutting them in half would improve things a lot. Too many long paths leading into dead ends as well, which seem to be for the sole purpose of requiring you to backtrack constantly and face more random encounters. Fighting all those battles is grinding, the fact that you don't have to intentionally grind by running back and forth on a long hallway just to beat the bosses is besides the point, you fought far more than you should have just to get there in the first place.. Hopefully there is some kind of encounter minimizing item/skill/ability at some point, if not I can't see myself making it through 30 levels of this.

    - Only seeing 1 square in front of you is a PITA when you are running along and then don't notice you are running into a boss monster before its too late. Cue going into a fight with 4 half-full SP characters and several characters out of the party. This happens half the time.

    - God Fucking Damn all boss enemies that have the generic '?' icon. Whoever did that should be shot. I'm not sure how rare it is, but now I am deathly afraid of every single chest and conversation turning into a boss while I (again) have only half SP left and am several characters down.

    - I'm not sure if I'm missing anything, but where is this stat information regarding skills? Some of them offer semi-detailed information ((2x ATK + 2x MAG) * 1.5, hey fucker who made Reimu's skills that just translates to 3x ATK + 3x MAG), others tell you generic things (hey this does lots of damage, cast it on bosses!). Some of the worst tell you absolutely useless things (despite Meiling's low ATK, Mountain Breaker is actually good. Its weakness is in its user. Holy fuck that spell description helped me figure out what this did!). Also, is attack supposed to be as pathetic as it is? Does it ever become even slightly useful or is the first action on every single character's list just there to fill space?

    - Seriously, EVA doesn't work? The Version number is 3.01, not .31. How does this shit get past basic testing? I already have one character who apparently misses out on 95% of her power because her EVA 9 and +100% EVA skill are both junk. And of course, this also makes all your spells hit 100% which screws over all skill variety between powerful but inaccurate vs weaker but sure hit.

    - Interface is horrible with the z/x/a stuff. Also, requiring double confirmation to run back to gensokyo annoys me every single time. No remembering the last skill used on each character and preventing you from needing to scroll down every time. No hotkey to instantly focus/skip turn (present in I believe every single other game in existence and its what I use for half of my characters in random encounters.

    - Character development seems pretty simplistic at the moment. Gee, my character uses Magic for every single thing they do. Magic also goes up by 3x as much when I put a point into it as Attack does. I wonder what I should put the level up point into? Derp. Of course there is also HP/SPD as an option and possibly a little of their better defense, but in the end we have 15 stats all coalesced into about 3 or 4 that are actually meaningful to a character, and you get plenty of skill points to keep all of those fairly high anyways and give the rest of the stats a token buff whenever they need it.

    Overall, its Good For What It Is. It should be a lot better, by 3.01 half of these problems should not still exist if someone competent was in charge.

    What exactly is the front/back row distinction? First two slots front second two back? I can't see I've seen any difference so far, and in fact I've kept all my casters in the front to better regen SP.
     
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  12. Crooked Beegender: ⚧ wide-wandering bee Patron

    Crooked Bee
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    Complaining about a simple three-button interface, really? But the lack of hotkeys can be annoying, true. And Evasion being worthless is really really bad, agreed. Hopefully they'll fix that at some point. Indies, bah.

    Well, I disagree. You only need to escape, like, three or four of them to get to a boss encounter. And yeah, you do know there's a 100% escape button, right? Sure, you lose 3TP for that, but by placing high TP characters in your active party that stops being a problem at all, as you can still explore great chunks of a dungeon.

    A valid complaint, I guess, but... impatient much? It's like being wary of traps in a "normal" dungeon crawler: you shouldn't be just running along. Try doing that in Chaos Strikes Back or Dark Heart of Uukrul; it won't be pleasant.

    I didn't have any problems with skill descriptions, but you could always consult a Wiki if you need more detailed information. ATK is used for physical spells, not for regular attacks, which can still be useful for dispatching weak random enemies without wasting SP. I know I do that occasionally when I don't feel like running away but want to preserve SP.

    Uhm, yes and no. There's a difference between physical spells, relying on ATK, and magical spells, relying on MAG. SPD can be extremely important once you face really quick bosses. And raising, say, Reimu's defense has worked wonders for me. As for the multiplier when a character levels up, you do know the formula, right? And it really depends on the character's natural strengths. Not all characters are MAG-inclined; those with naturally low MAG shouldn't increase it, it's useless.

    Yes, but that's kinda the point. Those meaningful stats are different for different characters, some need SPD investments, some HP, some ATK, some DEF, etc., all tailored for different combat situations. If you can get away with investing all points in MAG, you either grind too much without escaping random encounters or you're just an individual too elite for this game. :P

    What, you haven't noticed any difference!? I mean, do you really keep Patchouli in a front slot? And without switching her out? I guess you're just too good to be true, then...

    Let me also quote the Wiki, as I've found the following quite true:

    Well, I've been investing some points in SP, especially for the healers, and it's been useful, but I'm not past the midgame, so dunno, really. Keep in mind that SP is different from other stats, though:

    Yay!
     
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  13. Damned Registrationsgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    Oh, and while I don't know what evasion does for characters, ACCURACY is definitely not pointless. It doesn't reduce the attack to an outright miss, but I definitely notice Marissa hitting enemies for 39 damage when she should be hitting for 800 on occasion while using earthlight ray. Ditto for Reimu's 40 SP skill. Misdirection, on the other hand, is perfectly reliable. Seems to only affect multiple target spells though, need to do more tests. I assumed this has the same kind of effect for player evasion; that it causes a chance for the attack do be reduced in damage by some %. Obviously much harder to test that.
     
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  14. mondblutgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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  15. Andhairagender: ⚧ Arcane

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    This game seems intruiging. One question: does it have random encounters or are enemies shown on screen?
     
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  16. Andhairagender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Ok I checked out 2 gameplay videos of this on youtube. The biggest bummer is that battles are not animated. That SUCKS.

    On the bright side, the spell effects are pretty sweet.

    Will definately be checking this out. I just wish it wasn't just one big dungeon, but actually had a story. Story has always been the biggest strength of JRPG's.
     
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  17. Overweight Manateegender: ⚧ Scholar

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    Still a PITA, at least a few enemies are faster than me (and for some reason my faster characters don't seem any faster on the first turn, only later ones). At least a few bosses take a good 4/5 encounters. Since I don't even know who to use against the boss, I'm risking losing an important character that I would have needed against the boss early by using them to run. I'm sure this won't be a problem after I have 20 characters in backup, but its annoying now to be kept guessing too much. Its not like fighting a battle every 10s adds to the game.

    I suppose I'm highly used to roguelikes where you simply press a button to run in a direction until something awesome turns up.

    My example was just to point out that there really isn't much of a decision for specific characters, not that ATK was useless. So far there are no real ATK/MAG combination characters so there is no use in half of the stats for most characters. Its like in DA2 where, even though there are technically 6 stats, only 2 are used per class which takes out any variety in character advancement. HP/SPD/high defense are good, but everything else suffers from both not being as useful and not scaling well which makes them nigh useless. Not that you can't even get boosts in them, with the way the skill point requirements scale your bonuses to attack can be 1/2 as high as your bonuses to magic just from spending 1/10th as many skill points, which again takes away from any possible variety.

    What, you haven't noticed any difference!? I mean, do you really keep Patchouli in a front slot? And without switching her out? I guess you're just too good to be true, then...

    Let me also quote the Wiki, as I've found the following quite true:

    I certainly haven't seen the "attack first and second characters more often" thing. I asked because for some reason 75% of attacks seem to land on my 2nd/3rd characters, I didn't know if 1/4 were back and 2/3 were front. I've kept Patchouli in the back because my front characters need to have better SP recovery to spam more spells, I didn't know if the reduced damage from AoE spells was just because of her really high mind.

    Sure that isn't simply people in the back of the group taking less damage?

    Also, take into account this:

    The 200 cap on focusing hoses you, and the fact that speed increases SP recovery rate when switched out makes me think that raising SP with level up points is suboptimal. Marisa does have her Armageddon attack that deals more damage the more SP she uses on it, so that might be a decent reason to throw a few points her way for that.
     
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  18. Damned Registrationsgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    Yeah it probably is. Wasn't aware that that was the distinction between row and multi target spells.

    On the subject of characters getting attacked in higher slots, I've noticed elemental attacks getting used to target characters weak against them (i.e. Chen getting raped on the second floor regardless of where she goes.) Physical attacks definitely favour the first 2 slots though, with something like a 70/30 split between first and second.
     
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  19. Volrathgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    Well what could you possibly expect from a guy who thinks the witcher is an intelligent game? :lol:
     
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  20. Awor Szurkrarzgender: ⚧ Arcane In My Safe Space

    Awor Szurkrarz
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  21. Damned Registrationsgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    Wow. Youmu is a fucking CUNT. I was sure I was going to win last time but it just dragged on and on.
     
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  22. Crooked Beegender: ⚧ wide-wandering bee Patron

    Crooked Bee
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    Haha yes, it's probably the most difficult of the early boss fights. Her Ghost counterpart is very easy to kill, but after remaining alone she starts spamming very strong attacks like crazy. I have one tip that worked for me: try killing her first, even if she has some insane amount of HP. Another thing is, iirc, she uses her most powerful row attack -- which is of WND element, by the way -- right after the Cherry Blossom spell, so switch the less resistant characters out. Also, try paralyzing her and reducing her Speed with Cirno's spells -- and pray that works.

    @ Awor
    "Experience", as in "Experience!!" ;)
     
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  23. Overweight Manateegender: ⚧ Scholar

    Overweight Manatee
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    Against Youmu my biggest problem by far was the ghost. If that AoE poison spell decides to proc on all 4 people (which I swear happens 50% of the time) its pretty much game over since you only have a single poison remover. You can try to do some funky things switching people out, but they degen while in reserve so you are still crippled a ton and probably aren't getting past the fight unless you are a lot higher leveled then I was. Of course, as far as I can tell there is exactly zero ways to increase your poison resistance at this point so the whole fight is spent praying the ghost does stupid things until you kill it.

    Her big sword attack is not going to kill anyone who isn't an absurdly weak character or already hurt so long as you have Reimu's defense barrier up. Pile the SP recovery items onto her, you should nearly double her rate of SP regeneration. Crino probably deserves the other SP recovery items, since the slowing effect of her ice spells gradually wears off every turn spamming it as much as possible to keep it at full strength is ideal.
     
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  24. PorkaMorkagender: ⚧ Arcane

    PorkaMorka
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    To be fair PoR did something neat with the random encounters, after you completed a certain number of random encounters in a block, the random encounters would run out. And finishing off all the random encounters in a block along with the fixed encounters allowed you to "clear" a section.

    PoR was pretty ambitious compared to some of the later games in the series.
     
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  25. Awor Szurkrarzgender: ⚧ Arcane In My Safe Space

    Awor Szurkrarz
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    And "Experience!!" means game?
     
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