Development Info Knights of the Chalice 2 Development Update

[Gakkone]

Didn't you that know 'medieval' means the same as feudal Europe?

 

[Lhynn]

If you chose to build towards katana wielding on a medieval setting, then you should be fucked when it comes to procuring new katanas
Firs comes coherent world building, then comes player builds. This is the very fucking definition of

Yeah man I know what you mean. Medieval Japan was totally katana free amirite?

No, but finding a bastard sword or a crossbow wouldnt make much sense in that setting

Hate it when i have to clarify stupid stuff like this, makes me feel like im talking to a retard.

 

[Excidium]

Welcome to the codex.

 

[tuluse]

No, but finding a bastard sword or a crossbow wouldnt make much sense in that setting

Hate it when i have to clarify stupid stuff like this, makes me feel like im talking to a retard.

The game we're clearly talking about is BG2 which takes place in fantasy landia, so I see no reason why there couldn't anything they wanted.

 

[Excidium]

No, but finding a bastard sword or a crossbow wouldnt make much sense in that setting

Hate it when i have to clarify stupid stuff like this, makes me feel like im talking to a retard.

The game we're clearly talking about is BG2 which takes place in fantasy landia, so I see no reason why there couldn't anything they wanted.

Because the odds of finding a magical katana in the sword coast are p. low.

 

[Lhynn]

The game we're clearly talking about is BG2 which takes place in fantasy landia, so I see no reason why there couldn't anything they wanted.

there is a fucking table for D&D with % to find a specific weapon in a treasure, long swords are common, ninja-to`s fucking arent.
fantasylandia does not mean dumblandia, as much as youd wish it did.
For a fantastic world to be interesting it has to be coherent and consistent, otherwise is just fantasy trash.

 

[Excidium]

People specialize in rare weapons then get butthurt when it turns out they really are rare.

 

[Liston]

If you chose to build towards katana wielding on a medieval setting, then you should be fucked when it comes to procuring new katanas
Firs comes coherent world building, then comes player builds. This is the very fucking definition of

What's the point of adding "katana build" in your game if you don't give player access to katanas? Is it because you want to feel smart for choosing "longsword build" or because you enjoy increasing meaningless numbers?

 

[Excidium]

Strong Sawyer + Energy weapons vibes.

 

[Liston]

Strong Sawyer + Energy weapons vibes.

You got me, I'm actually Sawyer and I was holding plasma pistol while writing that post.

 

[tuluse]

People specialize in rare weapons then get butthurt when it turns out they really are rare.

I didn't really understand why they dropped the weapon categories from BG1. You had to pick your weapon specializations with very little knowledge in BG2.

They also didn't make much sense. If you're an expert with a longsword, you should be pretty decent with a katana.

 

[Lhynn]

If you chose to build towards katana wielding on a medieval setting, then you should be fucked when it comes to procuring new katanas
Firs comes coherent world building, then comes player builds. This is the very fucking definition of

What's the point of adding "katana build" in your game if you don't give player access to katanas? Is it because you want to feel smart for choosing "longsword build" or because you enjoy increasing meaningless numbers?

the point is giving more variety, you will find katanas, but they are rare and youll probably find stronger longswords/halberds/whatever-the-fuck-is-used-on-that-place-the-most.
You took your chances, like you take your chances with an chinese character on a tribal setting while playing PnP (reasons for that are up to you), your Jin Shi proficiency will be pretty fucking useless there, then you ROLEPLAY that situation, which is interesting, thats the whole point of an rpg, its says so, on the name!

 

[FeelTheRads]

You took your chances, like you take your chances with an chinese character on a tribal setting while playing PnP (reasons for that are up to you), your Jin Shi proficiency will be pretty fucking useless there, then you ROLEPLAY that situation, which is interesting, thats the whole point of an rpg, its says so, on the name!

Well, not in the popamole view of RPGs where they're not about dealing with the advantages and shortcomings of your character, but about having everything served to you and the only thing you need to do is decide whether to shoot or bash. Also called Sawyer RPG.

 

[Liston]

Well, not in the popamole view of RPGs where they're not about dealing with the advantages and shortcomings of your character, but about having everything served to you and the only thing you need to do is decide whether to shoot or bash. Also called Sawyer RPG.

Nice strawman you have built there. I have no problems with options that have both advantages and disadvantages but I don't see the point in adding clearly inferior options. But I guess people like to larp and fell smart because they made trivial decisions.

the point is giving more variety, you will find katanas, but they are rare and youll probably find stronger longswords/halberds/whatever-the-fuck-is-used-on-that-place-the-most.
You took your chances, like you take your chances with an chinese character on a tribal setting while playing PnP (reasons for that are up to you), your Jin Shi proficiency will be pretty fucking useless there, then you ROLEPLAY that situation, which is interesting, thats the whole point of an rpg, its says so, on the name!

PnP? You mean those things that have GMs that are going to craft adventure specifically to your party to make it more interesting?

 

[Lhynn]

PnP? You mean those things that have GMs that are going to craft adventure specifically to your party to make it more interesting?

By PnP i mean those things with more loot and tables than a statistic manual for accounting. where most things are randomized.

Its not about validating choices. its not about one choice being clearly better than the other one. Its about roleplaying situations in games.
Besides, you forget that the PCs are not the only characters in your game, lots of npcs with plenty of unoptimized builds to go around.
Also, its about the right weapon for the job. its about watching a dude with a scalpel commit suicide against a dude with a bastard sword. but its also watching a dude with a hidden scalpel on a party against a the same dude without a sword because he couldnt get in with it.
Its about a dude in a small tunnel with a two handed sword getting killed by a kobold with a stone knife.

Granted, those situations and others alike are hard to emulate on a game, but not because of that will you give a scalpel as much damage and lethality as a machinegun, for the sake of "balance or to avoid everyone from having a machinegun".

Because that is a shit rpg.

 

[FeelTheRads]

but I don't see the point in adding clearly inferior options

If it allows you to complete the game, does it matter that your strongest weapon is +2 instead of +5 you could've had if you played a different class? Or how inferior are we talking about here? And is it necessary that it's just as easy for all classes to get access to the strongest equipment? I don't understand. What's the problem with making it more difficult for some? It's fun and "interesting" to find alternate solutions to the problems you face, one of those problems being scarcity of equipment. And in a party game, it's really a non-issue, unless you cry that you can't have the same ultimate weapon for everybody in your party.

because they made trivial decisions.

Sup Roguey.

 

[Liston]

Granted, those situations and others alike are hard to emulate on a game, but not because of that will you give a scalpel as much damage and lethality as a machinegun, for the sake of "balance or to avoid everyone from having a machinegun".

Because that is a shit rpg.

Who are you arguing with? I never mentioned anything about making damage of scalpel and machinegun equal. I asked a simple question why include katana specialization if your setting doesn't have katanas (or have ridiculously small number of them)? It doesn't even make much sense from worldbuilding point of view. Your only answer to my question was to add more variety, but you can add more variety by adding choices that are actually interesting from gameplay perspective and not only variety for variety's sake. If you insist adding katanas and them being rare how about making them particularly good in some circumstances, that way your katana wielding warrior and your longsword warrior are going to play differently. Or maybe add some other skills that are attached to katana specialization, or maybe some NPCs that would react to your katana. I just don't see a point in options that have no advantages, if you think that they improve the game somehow it would be easy to add hundreds of skills just for flavor that would have no impact on gameplay.

If it allows you to complete the game, does it matter that your strongest weapon is +2 instead of +5 you could've had if you played a different class? Or how inferior are we talking about here? And is it necessary that it's just as easy for all classes to get access to the strongest equipment? I don't understand. What's the problem with making it more difficult for some? It's fun and "interesting" to find alternate solutions to the problems you face, one of those problems being scarcity of equipment. And in a party game, it's really a non-issue, unless you cry that you can't have the same ultimate weapon for everybody in your party.

It doesn't really matter but wouldn't it be better if choosing katanas actually gave you some kind of advantages or in other words fun and "interesting" alternate solutions to problems instead of just being rarer swords? It doesn't have anything to do with the difficulty, I just think that it is a waste of resources to add options that are clearly inferior or in other words have no point in being added.

 

[Lhynn]

Who are you arguing with? I never mentioned anything about making damage of scalpel and machinegun equal. I asked a simple question why include katana specialization if your setting doesn't have katanas (or have ridiculously small number of them)? It doesn't even make much sense from worldbuilding point of view. Your only answer to my question was to add more variety, but you can add more variety by adding choices that are actually interesting from gameplay perspective and not only variety for variety's sake. If you insist adding katanas and them being rare how about making them particularly good in some circumstances, that way your katana wielding warrior and your longsword warrior are going to play differently. Or maybe add some other skills that are attached to katana specialization, or maybe some NPCs that would react to your katana. I just don't see a point in options that have no advantages, if you think that they improve the game somehow it would be easy to add hundreds of skills just for flavor that would have no impact on gameplay.

Why are you keeping the retarded warrior that wants to use to retardedly hard to find katanas from his weapons? who are you to decide he shouldnt use them even if they are more trouble than they are worth?

There is such a thing as flavour in an rpg, stuff that serves no practical purpose other than to be there and be pretty.
Katanas are ultra expensive, ultra rare and dont offer a lot of benefits to differentiate them from other swords, yes, they are usually sharper and more deadly but the difference is neglible.

But its there, in the lair of the great mage necromax (you are free to borrow that awesome name btw) the party finds a skeleton (undead) of a hero from a far away land that holds a katana on his hands, and they fight for their lives against this relic from another time and another place.
Now, if this skeleton was the son of a whore and used a longsword no one would remember him, but these kind of details bring him to life.

Now imagine if the player character took a couple points in katana, because his father was a traveling merchant and a collectionist and in his travels he found a magical katana that his son learned to use from a script that came with said weapon. the value of this treasure is multiplied for this player. the sheer awesomeness of this little encounter will make him happy. Because it holds meaning to him, because it validates somewhat his choice, because its cool.
This i why i dont like most game devs, because they lose sight of things, because between mechanics and graphics and other nonsense they forget what makes a game memorable.
Shit combat and shit mechanics dont make for a shit RPG.

 

[tuluse]

The real problem is that there is no mechanical difference between katanas and other swords, so it's just an option to troll the player. If katanas actually did something other than be rare, it might have been cool.

 

[Roguey]

I didn't really understand why they dropped the weapon categories from BG1. You had to pick your weapon specializations with very little knowledge in BG2.

They also didn't make much sense. If you're an expert with a longsword, you should be pretty decent with a katana.

My guess would be because BG2 had a lot more magical weapons, so putting them into groups would result in swiss army knife grand masters.

 

[Excidium]

The real problem is that there is no mechanical difference between katanas and other swords, so it's just an option to troll the player. If katanas actually did something other than be rare, it might have been cool.

Welcome to D&D

 

[Lhynn]

I didn't really understand why they dropped the weapon categories from BG1. You had to pick your weapon specializations with very little knowledge in BG2.

They also didn't make much sense. If you're an expert with a longsword, you should be pretty decent with a katana.

My guess would be because BG2 had a lot more magical weapons, so putting them into groups would result in swiss army knife grand masters.

tuluse you are pretty good with katanas, hell, you are pretty decent with any weapon, you get a free -1 to thaco every level, and thats a lot! you are just not specialized with them
Roguey every weapon has different shapes and weights, different ways to attack of defend from attacks, different stances that are more appropriate, heck, even different ways to maintain them.

The problem comes from stupid level scaling, if you dont invest on a weapon you are going to be relatively weaker than your opponents of the same level that if you do. When in fact a lvl 3 warrior holding a mace hes never specialized in is a LOT better fighting than an lvl 1 expert.

This is a problem in mentality caused by games today, where everything is supposed to be "challenging". Challenging my ass, if you worked your way to lvl 15 you deserve to look cool and take care of some shit effortlessly once in a while.
Not only do you deserve it, you NEED it, in order to avoid losing sight of yourself and your relative power level.

tl;dr you need to stomp on cockroaches once in a while, this reminds you just how strong you are and how much of an achievement that is.

 

[Roguey]

But Lhynn then you have to ask yourself why you should even bother wasting a point or more getting specialized in katanas or any other rare-but-not-particularly-more-powerful-than-any-other-magical-common-weapon if it's more worthwhile to go for graaaaaaaaaand maaaaaaaaaaaaastery in crap like longswords and greatswords.

 

[Lhynn]

But Lhynn then you have to ask yourself why you should even bother wasting a point or more getting specialized in katanas or any other rare-but-not-particularly-more-powerful-than-any-other-magical-common-weapon if it's more worthwhile to go for graaaaaaaaaand maaaaaaaaaaaaastery in crap like longswords and greatswords.

"Because my great great grand uncle was a fucking bawse with a katana, and it got him lot of pussy, and i want to be JUST like him." because you dont plan your game around munchkins, because thats crap design.

You try to make it fair and coherent. But on a single player game, where it doesnt matter one tiny little fuck if the player ends up making the game too easy by overleveling, collecting the strongest artifacts in the whole world and relying on strong builds i just dont see the point on trying to keep shit balanced, after all thats called being prepared, and punishing preparation just for the sake of challenge is missing the whole point/fun of these games.

 

[Roguey]

"Because my great great grand uncle was a fucking bawse with a katana, and it got him lot of pussy, and i want to be JUST like him." because you dont plan your game around munchkins, because thats crap design.

"I'd guess the people who care are the players who make choices that, due to design's carelessness, lead to frustrating, dead-end gameplay experiences."

You try to make it fair and coherent. But on a single player game, where it doesnt matter one tiny little fuck if the player ends up making the game too easy by overleveling, collecting the strongest artifacts in the whole world and relying on strong builds i just dont see the point on trying to keep shit balanced, after all thats called being prepared, and punishing preparation just for the sake of challenge is missing the whole point/fun of these games.

"Players typically respond well to difficulty that moves on a 'rollercoaster' over the course of the game. If a single weapon or set of weapons allows the player to crest and effectively coast through rest of the game, it's often a less enjoyable experience."