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King's Bounty: Warriors of the North

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,873
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
How does the difficulty scale/spikes


Just the beggining fo the game i found a shield +1 and it had an upgrade +2 so i clicked it, not knowing better, i was teleported to a realm to fight the guards of the shield and was obliterated, had no chance. Should probably leave the shield +1 for now.

That's how it always was though. Item upgrades are not early game stuff.

I haven't seen any really unfair difficulty spikes. But this game seems low on variety, even for a KB game. So far I've been to 4 islands and on every one, 80% of the enemies are undead.
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
Soothsayer's resurrect sucks major balls. 16 HP per soothsayer, and it's halved when resurrecting (so 8 HP per Soothsayer for all intents and purposes), at a cost of 240 leadership. In comparison, Paladins resurrect in an AoE at 24 HP per Paladin, at a cost of 220 leadership.

His other skills are pretty bad too. Loki's Touch? Great, that will work after I've killed 80% of an enemy stack. Ice Storm? Great, a skill that does what Necromancers do for free on every attack, except with -2 damage on the main attack, another 50% less damage on the AoE, and won't curse all of them (reducing attack/defense by 35% and critical hit rate by 50%).

Might be because you're playing on Impossible, on normal I find Loki's touch very useful when fighting anything except undead. Soothsayer's res isn't that bad too, I'm pretty sure that 16 HP is the already halved value (so normal healing would be 32 HP). I usually start with a healing spell cast on the damaged stack so that the resurrection always works; more often than not it's a single unplanned casualty that I'm dealing with, or a couple of low HP-casualties, and the res can usually fix them so that I can work further towards another no-loss medal. The leadership bonuses from that medal are too worthwhile to pass up.

Yeah, after seeing the Skald songs I'm left saying: meh? Would be nice if they leveled with you or something.

Skald is clearly gunning for a high-crit + morale build, since they work so well together. The trouble is that the Viking unique skill is insanely good for crits, and it's a straight line to persuasion so Vikings can still benefit from morale in a mixed lineup very well. Skald does still have higher leadership, but I don't think it stands up to warriors at all.

They do level. The Jotun song started giving +2 to attack and defense instead of +1, I think it was around level 5. Seems to be tied to your char level instead of your medalion level. My gripe with it is that it offers not enough choice.

Jaedar:

The item upgrade design is one of the flawed things that they still haven't fixed. You have no way of judging the keeper threat and you need to quicksave (and usually quickload) to check out how tough they are.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,281
Location
Poland
I am playing a soothsayer (I always play mages) and gotta say not a very good start. Game aged a lot too and I can feel that.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,242
Soothsayer's resurrect sucks major balls. 16 HP per soothsayer, and it's halved when resurrecting (so 8 HP per Soothsayer for all intents and purposes), at a cost of 240 leadership. In comparison, Paladins resurrect in an AoE at 24 HP per Paladin, at a cost of 220 leadership.

His other skills are pretty bad too. Loki's Touch? Great, that will work after I've killed 80% of an enemy stack. Ice Storm? Great, a skill that does what Necromancers do for free on every attack, except with -2 damage on the main attack, another 50% less damage on the AoE, and won't curse all of them (reducing attack/defense by 35% and critical hit rate by 50%).

Might be because you're playing on Impossible, on normal I find Loki's touch very useful when fighting anything except undead. Soothsayer's res isn't that bad too, I'm pretty sure that 16 HP is the already halved value (so normal healing would be 32 HP). I usually start with a healing spell cast on the damaged stack so that the resurrection always works; more often than not it's a single unplanned casualty that I'm dealing with, or a couple of low HP-casualties, and the res can usually fix them so that I can work further towards another no-loss medal. The leadership bonuses from that medal are too worthwhile to pass up.

Anything less than Hard is easy mode TBH. And even on lower difficulties the fact that Loki's Touch only works on undead when you fight so much undead is kind of a bummer. Undead in general kind of suck since they have so many special immunities.

Resurrection is definitely at 8 HP each. Obviously you can heal to get minimum one, but thats nothing compared to what every other resurrection source in the game provides. You can also use gift to re-use the skill, but that's really damn expensive mana-wise.

Yeah, after seeing the Skald songs I'm left saying: meh? Would be nice if they leveled with you or something.

Skald is clearly gunning for a high-crit + morale build, since they work so well together. The trouble is that the Viking unique skill is insanely good for crits, and it's a straight line to persuasion so Vikings can still benefit from morale in a mixed lineup very well. Skald does still have higher leadership, but I don't think it stands up to warriors at all.

They do level. The Jotun song started giving +2 to attack and defense instead of +1, I think it was around level 5. Seems to be tied to your char level instead of your medalion level. My gripe with it is that it offers not enough choice.

That's cool, apparently I didn't level enough in my initial test of them.

Cheated a test character up to level 70. Sad to see that the penalties level along with the bonuses. Jutunheim reducing initiative of everything to zero has to suck. Niflheim looks like it might be great at high levels when combined with Snowstorm (AoE buff that adds cold resistance and % stat bonuses dependent on your cold resistance). Getting to 80% cold resistance would give 40% attack and defense buffs.
 

canakin

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
421
The amount of backtracking is fucking ridiculous in this game, much worse than the older titles. Running back to npcs to turn in quests, only to find out you need to go to another island in order to complete another retarded task gets old fast, especially in the bloody underground levels where you can't just fly over the armies of 20k spiders. I'm at the Iceland Island now and I'm about to either stop doing side quests or give up the game altogether.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,873
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
I've had no issues getting medals or achievements in the game, but they don't register on Steam.

Also, this game really is super repetetive. So, you beat the first four islands consisting of 90% undead enemies. Here, have 3 more maps consisting of 90% undead enemies. :/
 

Emily

Arcane
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,068
how do you beat that fucking giant spider at hard?
I tried numerous strategies, but the fact that his spider spawns just get bigger and bigger really ruins my day :///
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,242
Half the new viking units are bugged... :(

Axe Throwers: "No Melee Penalty: The creature inflicts the same damage in both Melee and Ranged attacks". Well they don't have a melee penalty, but they also don't inflict the same damage. They in fact have a ranged penalty.
Warrior Maiden: Call of Valhala is badly bugged. The "creature must have fallen in the last 2 turns" clause seems to bug out and randomly not let you resurrect even if you try to do it on the same turn the loss occurred. Happens much more frequently if you try to use multiple maiden stacks or Gift to spam this skill. Even when it does work, the definition of "last 2 turns" is apparently "you must use this the first time your Maiden gets her turn or it won't work". Gift of Odin also appears to simply flat out not work, which sucks because it would be insanely good ontop of an awesome all around unit.
Skald: Last Hero cast on your units crashes the game. Enough said.

Way too much use of undead for enemies, way too little variety in the units you have available early on, way too much gating. I can see expansions fixing the first two (Crossworlds did the same for Armored Princess, though it was never nearly this bad), but the 3rd is something that seems like it will just stick. Also I'm really disliking the fact that Lizardmen are completely unavailable. Why, in a game that is already reusing 90% of the last game, would you delete the race it added?

how do you beat that fucking giant spider at hard?
I tried numerous strategies, but the fact that his spider spawns just get bigger and bigger really ruins my day :///

What class, and what units/spells/abilities do you have?
 

Emily

Arcane
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,068
I actually managed to beat it. I was mage lv 17 i think.
I used mass bless, call of nature, and magic missile mostly in that fight. Beat it very narrow.
Btw they fixed most of problems on steam, but not on piratebay copy,including the notorious skald crash
 

Emily

Arcane
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,068
i find that very hard to believe. How could you do it, since he has that spit attack which deals 600-700 damage per round
 

Jaedar

Arcane
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Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,873
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Trolls? I'm betting trolls.
Abusing trolls or infinite gifting for heals sounds likely.

I beat spider at level 16 mage I think. Was pretty narrow, but only took 13 turns. Mostly spammed the level 2 ice snake spell.
 
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That's impressive. What difficulty were you on? The spider has a ton of extra HP the harder your difficulty is.

By the way, Creation is totally imba. Every mage should get it ASAP. Heck, every class should get it ASAP. 52% stone skin for 7 turns. 7 turns of Mana Spring at +19 defense. Target for 5 turns. Blind for 4 turns. Couldn't have finished the orc quest before the spider without it.

Saving crystals to get the 100 crystal medal at the moment, once I have that I'll go to town on Order and Chaos abilities.

Gudrida's Rage is an absolutely awesome ability, since burn deals % based damage and it covers such a wide area (decent base damage doesn't hurt either). Snuck in 2 levels of anger and have her leading my Valkyries for tons of rage, working really well.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
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Messages
9,873
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Hard. Also, I don't think you need to save crystals, it only matter show many you pick up afaik.

I haven't taken creation yet. Mostly it's because before the spider I couldn't find a single good buff or status effect(still only have stoke skin and mana spring). And no good summoning spells either. Permafrost and call of nature suck.
 
Joined
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You definitely need to save up crystals, else I would have gotten it a long time ago.

Stone Skin and mana spring are great buffs. Throw them on a Jarl and they can effortlessly take out anything that does physical damage. Only major obstacle for me were the groups with multiple huge undead spider stacks (600-800) with poison damage. Had to use slow + trap for those.
 

Emily

Arcane
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,068
i feel that the problem with king's bounty games is that they are too open ended, which just means more grinding, rather then challenging fights. If you would have less land to explore, i think it would lead to more tactical play, and less grinding
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
i feel that the problem with king's bounty games is that they are too open ended, which just means more grinding, rather then challenging fights. If you would have less land to explore, i think it would lead to more tactical play, and less grinding
That's part of the tactical play. Choose your fights.

There is no real choice. The basic formula for each of the new KB games looks like this:

1) Clean up your starting area. Level up, return for reinforcements. Clean up more.
2) Proceed to the next island. Notice that every group there is "deadly" or "very strong".
3) Pick weaker groups first, level up, reinforce, collect goodies, take on others.
4) Alternate between choosing to clean up this area or going to another one to pick up some goodies to make cleaning the current one easier.
5) Rinse and repeat for about 950 battles.

That's why with previous KB games I always got burnt out around the third or fourth area you explore, and it was no different in WoTN. I've reached Arlania, uncovered a couple of other locales, checked them all out and all I've seen were the same baddies, just with inflated numbers. Also, in this one there's just too much fucking undead and spiders and battles with these get really monotonous. I think that for the last 50-60 battles my recipe for flawless victories on hard was to summon a phoenix and pelt the enemy with hard-to-kill ranged units and debilitating spells like slow. It's a major design flaw if I can stick to a really simple and primitive 'tactic' like that for such a long time and just kill everything because no group of enemies I met so far was able to challenge me. Yes, I realise that demons are fire-resistant and supposedly there's an area full of them, but I'd probably find another gimmick against the demonic opponents just as quickly.

There's just not enough variation. The RPG elements are not strong enough to keep you occupied between battles, the story is often funny but doesn't treat itself seriously to the point where the player can't treat it seriously as well (they should aim more for something a la Divinity 2). So all you've got there are basically sets of battles with similar enemies of increasing numbers (undead set, nature set, viking set etc etc) and an overland map which will most of the time serve you to reach the nearest recruitment point.

The game copies HoMM-style combat really well, but the issue is that HoMM had less battles, and there was more strategic gameplay in between them. Where to move your heroes, which mines to flag, how to develop your cities. When the battles did happen, they more often than not were something important that meant a leap forward for your scenario - by defeating some enemies you fulfilled one of the crucial goals, like providing resources, retrieving your artifact that gave you an important edge over your enemies or clearing an important path. This is also the thing that WoTN got wrong. Here battles are, just like Bratislav said: grinding, plain and simple. It's like an MMO in some aspects, where you kill mobs to get gold and XP so that you can kill more powerful mobs and see larger numbers on the screen and that's all there is.
 

Emily

Arcane
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,068
i feel that the problem with king's bounty games is that they are too open ended, which just means more grinding, rather then challenging fights. If you would have less land to explore, i think it would lead to more tactical play, and less grinding
That's part of the tactical play. Choose your fights.
Since there is available so many enemies, you dont really NEED to choose fights after the starting islands. you can always find some enemies that are weak, or even very weak. That is why i think if there were less enemies to fight, you would really need to choose fights rather then just kill everything in order
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,242
Rune Mages

:what:

Well, Paladins aren't underpowered any more.

Since there is available so many enemies, you dont really NEED to choose fights after the starting islands. you can always find some enemies that are weak, or even very weak. That is why i think if there were less enemies to fight, you would really need to choose fights rather then just kill everything in order

So increase the difficulty. You will never find a single weak enemy.
 

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