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KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Unwanted
Douchebag! Shitposter
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
3,059
Codex tells me development for this game is fucked, but realistic looking medieval settings always give me a boner.

Don't fuck this game up, please?

Codex does not know what it's talking about.

Armchair developers right above my post, thinking they can establish why the studio isn't developing the game properly. Based on a few comments by Dan himself on the difficulties of developing a project.

He would not display a complete fuck up if it was truly one. Others developers typically don't tell that and con their way into making us think the project is flawless. Kickstarter projects included. He's just being honest.

(two designers on the same project coming up with completely different solutions - whaaat? bad project management at least have the designers cooperate and collaborate with one another to come up with a single solution - so much waste otherwise.)

Yes go tell them that genius. They have been waiting for an elite cognitive individual like you to fix everything in a swoop of a brainfart. Wage starts at 100 000$.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,395
To be fair, if you read Vavra's blog he is very open with the issues of gamming development. Sometimes... too open as you have the impression something catastrofic will happen at any minute.
 

Metro

Arcane
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This is reaching Schaf-erian levels of mismanagement.

tim2.jpg
 
Unwanted

Magic User

Unwanted
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From a developer standpoint they sure made one good decision: the game is episodic.

It's pretty much impossible for them to not be able to complete the first chapter, all things considered. If it was a whole game then I would have my doubts, but even with all the imcopetence the guy is openly displaying the worse than can happen is a short first chapter with unpolished gameplay and feeling unfinished. If that will sell well and gather enough funds to continue development, that's another story.
 

Metro

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Episodic games = desperation. Unless you have some locked-in audience of storyfags like Telltale does chances are people are going to avoid it. Most people don't want to buy part of a game. Especially an action oriented RPG.
 

buzz

Arcane
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Apr 1, 2012
Messages
4,234
I don't know why do they even bother. Just say that episode 1 is the first game then make sequels. There's pretty much nothing that separates an "episodic" game apart from a normal franchise with sequels.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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I don't know why do they even bother. Just say that episode 1 is the first game then make sequels. There's pretty much nothing that separates an "episodic" game apart from a normal franchise with sequels.

What? What separates an "episodic" game from a normal franchise is that episodes are small fragments of a whole game.
 
Unwanted

Magic User

Unwanted
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That is my main qualm about this, if they made it a sandbox game it would actually be excellent. The moment that shit came out about "epic drama" and one of the stretch goals being "control a female character who saves our hero" I gave up on donating.

It seems to me they promised too much and won't deliver nearly all of it. Most of the features they promised only fit an open ended sandbox game anyway.
 

buzz

Arcane
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What? What separates an "episodic" game from a normal franchise is that episodes are small fragments of a whole game.
Who would be the one to notice? We live in an area where shit like Gone Home passes as a video game.

If Kingdom Come: Deliverance would have been a stand-alone game offering more than 10/15 hours of gameplay, no one would argue that it isn't a complete game by today's standards.
 

Metro

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People did fund this one, didn't they?
I could be wrong but I believe the KS was launched/funded before they announced it was episodic or whatever the crap is about only using that money for a promo to show a publisher or whatever.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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I'm not going to hold it against them if they can only release the game episodically, but depending on the game i'm not sure whether that method works. A game like Doom would work perfectly since the levels are linear and there is no story. Just pumping new episodes every so often would have been great. Not sure how Valve managed to fuck it up, but might be precisely that the game was too story oriented. Also years between episodes. Holy shit fuck you Gabe.

Other type of games worked less well. Sam & Max (i'm going to ignore the quality of the game itself for a moment) missed a lot of opportunities since every episode had to be self contained. Older adventure games had exploration, puzzles that carried across long stretches of time, and that kind of stuff. Sam & Max was just a series of self contained miniature adventure games, which made the series more popamole than it otherwise would have been.

The only possible advantage of episodic development is that it could potentially offer a more complete product in the long run. Many times you find certain parts of a game to be incomplete or poorly designed, simply because the company had to push the game out of the door and didn't have time to finish those parts. In an episodic format, one should in principle have a more complete overall product.

At any rate, whatever allows them to put the development of this game on track. If i like what i see i'll stick around. If not, fuck it. All they have to show so far is that the setting isn't retarded Oblivionshit fantasy derp (i also like how clean the visuals are, no stupid derp effects all over the place. They must have pretty good artists), which is a plus, but in itself doesn't mean anything.
 
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Sprout

Educated
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Apr 5, 2013
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67
I could be wrong but I believe the KS was launched/funded before they announced it was episodic or whatever the crap is about only using that money for a promo to show a publisher or whatever.

Nah, they did mention at the beginning of the kickstarter that the game would be divided into three acts. The purpose of the kickstarter was to show their private investor if public had any interest in their product.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
Developer
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Belgistan
People did fund this one, didn't they?
I could be wrong but I believe the KS was launched/funded before they announced it was episodic or whatever the crap is about only using that money for a promo to show a publisher or whatever.
Nope. It was there from the start. However not well explained.

The originaly intended game (funded by publisher) was planned to have 70+hours of gameplay. It was to cosist of 3 story chapters/acts, each unlocking new map and new (continuous) part of the story.
With rejection from the publishers Warhorse made deal with their investor that he would finance the development. However since the original idea was a bit too expensive to develop the game was decided to be split into the already planned chapters as separate projects. And the KS project was only about funding Act1 (not fully. KS money are just a fraction, rest is coming from the private investor). Funding of the other acts/chapters is dependent on success of Act1 (that's BTW is the reason why you cannot easily buy the other two Acts now because their fate is still uncertain). It's a similar model to Starcraft 2.

I am not sure if this can be called episodic.

The blogpost about development dificulties is a bit depressive yes. I cannot tell you how well the development is going but pulling out Schafer? Now?
Wasteland 2 is one year late, being silent for quite some time about the real situation. All's ok.
Eternity is way behind schedule, looking fine. All's ok.
Torment might not only be pushed back due to Wasteland but also prolonged as is usual making it a project of late 2015 or even 2016. All's ok.
Warhorse writes about recognizing some internal problems, however supposedly still on schedule with the project. Is compared to a project which half-time in development ran out of money and was forced to split itself in half.

Is there something I am missing which made some of you to think that way?
 

Kem0sabe

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Azores Islands
The problem with their KS from the start was that they were using the crowdfunding platform as a market viability study, they never intended for the game to be made with the backers support, they just wanted the money to show their investor that the game was viable.

Those other rpg kickstarters have involved the community much more in the game development cycle, they have changed their games due to fan feedback and their communities have the notion that these games would not have been made without their backing. Warhorse is taking the opposite approach, thats why people seem less inclined to put up with their shananigans.
 
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Wasteland 2 is one year late, being silent for quite some time about the real situation. All's ok.
Eternity is way behind schedule, looking fine. All's ok.
Torment might not only be pushed back due to Wasteland but also prolonged as is usual making it a project of late 2015 or even 2016. All's ok.
You can't really compare W2 and Eternity/Torment.
Eternity was prolonged just after kickstarter campaign ended. So it's not behind schedule - in fact it looks like it will be delivered on time.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
Developer
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Messages
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Location
Belgistan
Hmm, that's a good point. However, shenanigans? Can you be more specific?

The situation with this KS is really different.

Normal KS: We have some neat idea, some famous people on board, we paid concept artists few bucks, we spent 2-4 months in preproduction and made a cool video. All and only your money will make this happen. Design? That is all yet to be done, come help us shape it. Combat system? We don't know. Camera? We have some preferences but we are not sure. Hub based? Nah, you decide, community. After all it's all for you, from you.

Warhorse KS: We've spent nearly 2 years and $1.5m developing the game. Much of the design is already completed, partialy implemented. Story draft is written. The design vision and scope is clear as the budget is set and only nuanced things can be altered or added. With KS happening we cannot afford to make everything we intended therefore we split the design into seprately developable parts. Third person view? Can't happen because of the combat design, you know. Take a look. You wanna hire armies and eventually be a king? Can't happen because history, because story is already set and because it's a story driven RPG, you know. Take a look. And so on.

So yeah, direct involvement of community in development of KCD is much more limited than with other KS projects. But it makes sense, doesn't it? No shady crap here.
 

WhiteGuts

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
2,382
Yeah that's the big difference. Warhose already knows exactly what they want to do, the design is locked. You could tell by their stretch goals during the campaign.
 
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The amount of butthurt on this thread is amusing. Since the beginning, there have been people here excited by the idea of this game, and people who absolutely hated it. Some of the latter have since been coming up with all kinds of ways to trash the game, the company, the development process. I think it really comes down to some people just not wanting a game like KCD to succeed, because they just hate the idea of action RPGs with first person view and real time combat. Well, it might very well fail yet, but nothing they've revealed so far is an indication of that, and I am guessing that if other developers were as forthcoming as Vavra about their situations, we would see just as much chaos and unpredictability most times. I mean think about it, AAA games from studios rolling in money like Blizzard and EA routinely get delayed, or even scrapped entirely (e.g. Titan), and most of those games don't even try much new stuff, just retread the same old BS in a new shirt. So here we have a game from a new studio, with all sorts of new ideas, and its development has been marked with all kinds of unpredictable events, so what do you realistically expect?
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
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Messages
13,083
Location
Azores Islands
The amount of butthurt on this thread is amusing. Since the beginning, there have been people here excited by the idea of this game, and people who absolutely hated it. Some of the latter have since been coming up with all kinds of ways to trash the game, the company, the development process. I think it really comes down to some people just not wanting a game like KCD to succeed, because they just hate the idea of action RPGs with first person view and real time combat. Well, it might very well fail yet, but nothing they've revealed so far is an indication of that, and I am guessing that if other developers were as forthcoming as Vavra about their situations, we would see just as much chaos and unpredictability most times. I mean think about it, AAA games from studios rolling in money like Blizzard and EA routinely get delayed, or even scrapped entirely (e.g. Titan), and most of those games don't even try much new stuff, just retread the same old BS in a new shirt. So here we have a game from a new studio, with all sorts of new ideas, and its development has been marked with all kinds of unpredictable events, so what do you realistically expect?

What new ideas beyond the standard hiking simulator tropes? Lot's of promises about unprecedented immersion, "real" combat, "real" medieval setting, but so far its all promises with little to show beyond graphics.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,150
... but so far its all promises with little to show beyond graphics.

It's a game in development, how is it supposed to show more than promises now?

But more importantly, you've illustrated my point. You just don't like this game. And that's fine, you are allowed to not like it. I just find it funny that you, and others, then come in here and try to make it sound like it's a complete failure in every way when obviously, we just don't have any information to suggest that as of right now.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
Developer
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
707
Location
Belgistan
The amount of butthurt on this thread is amusing. Since the beginning, there have been people here excited by the idea of this game, and people who absolutely hated it. Some of the latter have since been coming up with all kinds of ways to trash the game, the company, the development process. I think it really comes down to some people just not wanting a game like KCD to succeed, because they just hate the idea of action RPGs with first person view and real time combat. Well, it might very well fail yet, but nothing they've revealed so far is an indication of that, and I am guessing that if other developers were as forthcoming as Vavra about their situations, we would see just as much chaos and unpredictability most times. I mean think about it, AAA games from studios rolling in money like Blizzard and EA routinely get delayed, or even scrapped entirely (e.g. Titan), and most of those games don't even try much new stuff, just retread the same old BS in a new shirt. So here we have a game from a new studio, with all sorts of new ideas, and its development has been marked with all kinds of unpredictable events, so what do you realistically expect?

What new ideas beyond the standard hiking simulator tropes? Lot's of promises about unprecedented immersion, "real" combat, "real" medieval setting, but so far its all promises with little to show beyond graphics.
From what has been revealed
1) The combat really is innovative. Systemization of real combat has some limitations so of course it cannot allow you 1:1 combat experience. Yet it is a completely new system more close to reality than anything else. If it ends up being good and fun (or even effective selling point), that's another question.
2) Theme+genre+production qualities combo. That's unprecedented. That is and actual selling point. Again might end up not being interesting enough for a game. But there are tens of thousands gamers hooked on this already.
3) Story based on real historical events which are not well known (it's not another Joan of Arc or Willy Wallace) yet are interesting.
4) Real historical places. Again not unique but quite uncommon, taking into account that it's not like AssCreed's Colosseo + Piramide Cestia + some generated buildings and whoop! we've got a historical Rome.
5) A sort of more or less deep life simulation. If it's not just a gimmick and if it makes sense in the design that's again another question.
6) Survival/character maintenance aspects. Will it be fun? Will see. But again in combination with there genre I thing some sort of survival (and not very good one) was notable only in New Vegas.
7) Unprecedented layered clothing system. This more a technical feature than a design one but hey, it gives much more diversity to the world for much less work.
8) And at last Awsum Grafix!

Following with promises
1) Grounded non black-and-white story. That's not unique but such games are still scarce. Additionally many which tried, failed horribly.
2) Few large scale historical battles: This was admitted to be a very tricky part which might not end up being as envisioned ('cause tech limitations so design will be very tricky here)
3) Innovative crafting (and) minigames. Will it be fun? Will see.
4) Innovative approach to law/criminal system. No details were revealed. There was just some minor discussion on the forums regarding stolen items.
5) If it works out the horse might be some significant improvement on present systems.

Skepticism and constructive criticism is always good (hello backers of Areal, Star Command, Yogventures or CLANG! I backed CLANG btw). Pessimism... well, sometimes too as it shows some new pov on the topic. But it should always be based on facts and I see quite a lot of misunderstanding or even misinformation here. WH may be blamed for bad communication but I don't see many flaws in it so what is the real problem that causes this little shitrain here?

As PorkyThePladin said you are not obliged to like the game. Maybe the whole concept is something completely beyond you and your tastes. That's ok. Ignore the project. You have the freedom to do so.
But hatred is pointless. It won't cause the game not being made, not being (un)successful, it won't change the game into something you like, most probably. Is it really hatred what we see here? I don't know, maybe it's just miunderstading.
But we are on 'Dex. I know 'Dex. Hate and schadenfreude are one of the core fuels here. So what's the point?
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,661
But hatred is pointless. It won't cause the game not being made, not being (un)successful, it won't change the game into something you like, most probably. Is it really hatred what we see here? I don't know, maybe it's just miunderstading.
But we are on 'Dex. I know 'Dex. Hate and schadenfreude are one of the core fuels here. So what's the point?
Are you going to post this little speech on every thread where a game is criticised? If so you're going to be very busy I suspect.

Some people have criticised aspects of the gameplay or design goals.... well that's standard around here isn't it? Even supposed favourites like Torment and Fallout are criticised by some Codexers, not much point getting upset about it.

A lot of the negative comments are to do with his post about how he had been too busy trying to raise money to finish the design phase, but had hired loads of staff anyway, who now had nothing to do or were doing things without guidance that would have to be redone. Of course this sort of stuff is going to attract attention. It's farcical. The fact that other devs have had problems on other projects is immaterial - they all get plenty of criticism too.

If you expect everyone who posts here to be a cheerleader for the project, for everything to be sweetness and good cheer.... then the Codex is a strange choice of forum to frequent isn't it?
 

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