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Review JRPG Codex Review: Fortune Summoners: Secret of the Elemental Stone

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,017
Again, pure culture clash, is like Bruce Lee vs Ivan Drago; the asian image of "the perfect warrior" is skilled fighter with a finely crafted weapon, while europeans would probably say a massive and unbeatable viking-like warrior. Thus you have agile and skilled anime characters with ridiculously powerful weapons, against big and tough warhammer fighters, made to endure everything.

A german thinks Leman Russ would break Cloud in half like a stick, while a japanese would imagine Cloud quickly dodging his attack and slicking Russ with a super-duper Omnislash... you can't really say one is right and the other is wrong without looking like a 12-old arguing if Batman would beat Iron Man...
Except that even Japanese see the Western stereotype like the embodiment of the true warrior, as their fascination with wrestling proves.
Final Fantasy Faggotry is very recent, look at how Samurai were depicted, without mention that many of them were physically more endowed than the average Japanese, in fact many came from the Ainu ethnicity, half Caucasian.
The gentle warrior with superior skills is a Confucian Chinese stereotype, and it's just an ideal proved wrong by history considering how many Barbarians enslaved China.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Thread going places. :lol:
Super Saiyan 3 Goku can destroy planets, man. When he turns blonde. Or something.
 

Marsal

Arcane
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,304
I am very butthurt about the games I am not going to play regardless of any merit they may have, so I'll invent contrived reason why game XYZ is better and how it has "reasons" for bullshit art direction, thus proving my intellectual superiority douchebaggery and endless capacity to miss the fucking point.

Fix'd.

Take a cheel pill, brah.
I wasn't talking to you, subhuman trash. I don't care what you or other weeaboos play and get off to, as long as it isn't pinned on the home page, obscuring interesting things, like the interview with the GURPS guy. Go back to your pedo game and do not address your superiors without being spoken to.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Except that even Japanese see the Western stereotype like the embodiment of the true warrior, as their fascination with wrestling proves.
Final Fantasy Faggotry is very recent, look at how Samurai were depicted, without mention that many of them were physically more endowed than the average Japanese, in fact many came from the Ainu ethnicity, half Caucasian.
You got a strong point....but still japanese can't "turn into" a western or ainu, nor you could have only heroes and myths that keep saying that japs are weaker.... perhaps there came the need for a "legendary weapon", something that would set him apart from the others and allow him to overcome the physically superior... or just turn into a Super Saiyan and bust planets, like RK47 said... :lol:
 

Sukeban Cho

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DaJi's school for fine ladies.
The gentle warrior with superior skills is a Confucian Chinese stereotype, and it's just an ideal proved wrong by history considering how many Barbarians enslaved China.

You know I like you, but you should really (really!) study your chinese history.

I'm not getting into stupid internet arguments, but that wasn't the smartest comment you ever did.

Still wuv you, though.

:love:
 
Joined
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110hber.png

And worse than PS:T, the Troika Trinity, Arcanum, TOEE and Bloodlines are "flawed yet good" as a game can get.
No, they are good because are masterpieces, and their flaws are condoned only because the possibility to get anything on par or better is almost nil.

So you agree with him...

Also "good because it's a masterpiece" sounds like "bad because it's shit"
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,017
The gentle warrior with superior skills is a Confucian Chinese stereotype, and it's just an ideal proved wrong by history considering how many Barbarians enslaved China.

You know I like you, but you should really (really!) study your chinese history.

I'm not getting into stupid internet arguments, but that wasn't the smartest comment you ever did.

Still wuv you, though.

:love:
:love:
Don't worry, correct me if you want, I am able to discern between an informed discussion and a rabid word war.
I was mostly referring to the cultural stereotype of the Heian period.
 

Wyrmlord

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Messages
28,886
If there is no room for JRPGs here, we should not discuss Planescape: Torment or Albion in these boards.
 

Alex

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felipepepe

Maybe I am arguing about semantics, but my intent was to say that it isn't simply a case of culture clash, which would imply that they are different, but not really, that a similar aesthetic from my own culture would be acceptable, which I think isn't the case. I don't know about anyone else, obviously, but when I see any kind of warrior, I want to see physical sacrifice stamped on his face and silhouette. I want to see missing limbs and scars, not a pretty face.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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felipepepe

Maybe I am arguing about semantics, but my intent was to say that it isn't simply a case of culture clash, which would imply that they are different, but not really, that a similar aesthetic from my own culture would be acceptable, which I think isn't the case. I don't know about anyone else, obviously, but when I see any kind of warrior, I want to see physical sacrifice stamped on his face and silhouette. I want to see missing limbs and scars, not a pretty face.
Yes, I agree with you, but that's a different matter. Japan really is going down the drain recently, in the sense that all you see are college girls, perfect faced teenagers and panties everywhere, and I also hate that, I think is low even for their cultural standards. Otakus really turned into a separate culture that each time sets itself more apart and more disgusting for non-otakus.

But stuff like giant swords are still a culture thing IMHO. For instance, Auron in FFX has a bigass sword AND fulfills the "physical sacrifice" criteria well, you look and the guy and he seems like a survivor, someone that went through countless battles. Sadly, each time is harder and harder to see those kind of characters....
 

Mrowak

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Project: Eternity
I think his point is that whereas space marines are pretty much monstrous looking, being brutish giant soldiers made by science. For them, carrying giant chain weapns make perfect sense. Whereas JRPG protagonists are small and androgynous looking, I believe, in the hope of creating an interesting contrast. However, many people (myself included) find this contrast silly and unpalatable, as well as the theme in they address in the story itself.

Either way, space marines in the original WH40k were supposed to be silly, the work being mostly parody and not intended to be taken completely serious (but not as straight up comedy either, I think). I find this version of the setting much more interesting, to be honest.

And here you hit the nail. Just like spacemarines from Warhammer 40k the art direction in this game and 90% of the likes is supposed to be silly. The difference is while, Warhammer is also bloody, gory and oh so grimdarky - appealing exactly to late-teenage male audience; games like Fortune Summoners are playful, charming and funny appealing mainly to teenage female audience. As with good animated family movie (Pixar's 'Up', 'Spirited Away', 'Shrek') this does not mean the former or the latter cannot be enjoyed by the same people and recognized for their undeniable strengths - for instance, in this case, a very addictive gameplay. And for the record, I don't think being bloody and gory is a sign of sophistication over being charming and playful - especially in entertainment.

Both of the abovesaid approaches can be valuable and indeed important to one's sense enjoyment. For that reason I find it mindbogglingly idiotic when bunch of people goes into high butthurt mode, and not only refuses to recognize some obvious merits for arbitrary reasons, but also spits bullshit without even the slightest notion of what they are talking about and even what the argument was. In the end we end up squabbling like boys in a sandbox over whose sandcastle is the best, except in our case neither side knows what his opponent's castle looks like.

And I admit that within anime-style roughly 90% of stuff is pure uncondensed shit, but hey - the same can be said about anything including most Western tv series, novels, video games and so on. I, for one, am glad to learn about a solid game with terrific gameplay and gladly support its production, even though its art-style and general tone is not exactly my cup of tea. Hwoever this does not matter as deriving fun from action packed complex RPG-platformer hybrid is far more worthwhile than popamolling Reapers in the newest abortion by Bioware.
 

Sukeban Cho

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DaJi's school for fine ladies.
I don't know about anyone else, obviously, but when I see any kind of warrior, I want to see physical sacrifice stamped on his face and silhouette. I want to see missing limbs and scars, not a pretty face.

It's amusing it could be said the other way around, too: When I see beautiful people with flawless faces, perfect bodies, and graceful movements I want to see physical sacrifice and mental stress stamped all over their character and personality instead of easygoing fellows.

Gaming turns into a horrible and boring place if you take that ideal to its natural conclussion. And if you aren't willing to apply it to every single thing, how can you criticize it isn't being applied to one thing in particular?

:love:
Don't worry, correct me if you want, I am able to discern between an informed discussion and a rabid word war.
I was mostly referring to the cultural stereotype of the Heian period.

I wasn't going so much on the warrior archetype as about other things. I'll go on about it for a little bit:

The idea of the graceful, gentle, and elegant martial warrior has no more reality in chinese history than the perfectly pious and virtuous questing knight has in european one. They are figures and themes of literature and art, expressing an ideal with no connection to practical daily reality.

Thus, it can't be said that the ideal was in some way guilty for the almost seasonal decadences and collapses of the chinese civilization. The ideal had not that much of an effect on the reality of warriors, who were pretty much the same brutes they were elsewhere when you get down to research the historical figures behind many of the romantized chinese heroes.

It could be argued, however, that the ideals and philosophies those figures embody and teach about were what made chinese culture survive through the ridiculous amount of internal conflict and violence, the periods of deep decadence, and the many foreign conquests, and rebuild afterwards for another go at the same cycle. So I am not so sure the ideal itself is sensurable.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,017
I wasn't going so much on the warrior archetype as about other things. I'll go on about it for a little bit:

The idea of the graceful, gentle, and elegant martial warrior has no more reality in chinese history than the perfectly pious and virtuous questing knight has in european one. They are figures and themes of literature and art, expressing an ideal with no connection to practical daily reality.

Thus, it can't be said that the ideal was in some way guilty for the almost seasonal decadences and collapses of the chinese civilization. The ideal had not that much of an effect on the reality of warriors, who were pretty much the same brutes they were elsewhere when you get down to research the historical figures behind many of the romantized chinese heroes.

It could be argued, however, that the ideals and philosophies those figures embody and teach about were what made chinese culture survive through the ridiculous amount of internal conflict and violence, the periods of deep decadence, and the many foreign conquests, and rebuild afterwards for another go at the same cycle. So I am not so sure the ideal itself is sensurable.
Thanks for the reply, you are correct, I mixed up the literary figures with Confucianism, not very monocle indeed, however, I wasn't criticizing the philosophy, that, indeed made Chinese culture survive many ordeals, was just a broad consideration.
 

aris

Arcane
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
11,613
If there is no room for JRPGs here, we should not discuss Planescape: Torment or Albion in these boards.
How's that? The spell effects of Planescape:torment were very very JRPGish, but except for that?
No, they are good because are masterpieces, and their flaws are condoned only because the possibility to get anything on par or better is almost nil.

toee and bloodlines masterpieces? You've clearly drunk too much nostalgia juice, sir.
 

Alex

Arcane
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Jun 14, 2007
Messages
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São Paulo - Brasil
It's amusing it could be said the other way around, too: When I see beautiful people with flawless faces, perfect bodies, and graceful movements I want to see physical sacrifice and mental stress stamped all over their character and personality instead of easygoing fellows.

Not really. Showing their sacrifice directly on their countenance goes directly against what the sacrifice tried to achieve. For a charismatic, beautiful and graceful thief, I would prefer to see the price she paid shown in a big meltdown, when her all her plans and schemes fail and, frustrated beyond belief, she finally lets the facade fall and shows her ugly, hurt, true face for all to see. Did you ever watch the Oz series? They had for a while a female inmate in the death row in that show. Her losing her shit during the execution is exactly what I am talking about. But then again...

Gaming turns into a horrible and boring place if you take that ideal to its natural conclussion. And if you aren't willing to apply it to every single thing, how can you criticize it isn't being applied to one thing in particular?

Sorry, I expressed myself poorly. I criticize nothing. I was just explaining my personal preference. I like books, games and shows where what the characters have wasn't handed to them, but they actually fought to get it, and the story shows this. I hate action movies where the protagonist is invincible. I hate stories where the good hero has no flaws and no problems, but rather seems like a chosen one for whom the great villain's plot unravels like magic. And I dislike anime stuff where the powerful protagonist looks line he never had to deal with a punch to the face.

But all this is just my personal preference. It is completely possible the things I mentioned above can be used for good effect in different stories. It is quite possible I have dismissed shows, books and comics that had the things above, but were quite good in a way I didn't examine them enough to understand. But as a rule, I like my characters to have problems, scars and regrets that reflect their own imperfection. The obvious scar for a warrior are physical. For a manipulator, they should be psychological. For a wizard, well, this picture here describes it pretty well:

mu.jpg
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Does this mean next time I can write a full length review for an inevitable Devil Survivor 3?

Come on, we all know Devil Survivor is a better WRPG than most games calling themselves WRPGs.

It is, and you could... if it were a PC game. ;)

Touhou already drained me of all manliness.

:lol:

So this is the reason we can't have more frequent Wizardry IV LP updates nice things any more :(.

Not really. I had no time to update the Wiz4 LP, true, but this review was a single-day affair that didn't have anything to do with that.
 

Cassidy

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Vault City
What happened on 11/11/11?
I'm baffled you forgot it. It was the day when you and other cRPG enthusiasts like Twinfalls showed up to drool over the latest entry to the Elder Turds saga on day 1. Awesome! Mature lore and stuffies! All is forgiven Todd!
All I recall us saying was that the game was fun, exploration was excellent and for all its flaws it was still a far better product than Oblivion - and as such, incline, by Bethesda standards. Nobody ever touted this game as a flawless RPG or the next PS:T. It's a hiking simulator, and a good one at that, like Morrowind, with some cool lore for the lorehounds, some eyecandy for those who like spelunking and somewhere in there there's also a crappy RPG.

Not sure why you make that into "all is forgiven, Todd!". Black & white worldview much? I always considered us to be gentlemen with refined opinions that are a little more sophisticated than "worst game ever!" and "best game ever!".

Considering the amount of effort done by so many to defend such Skyrimjob crap from any criticism here back in those days, that is a pretty dishonest and tame way of seeing it. No, it was a full fledged face-heel-turn into being idiotic mouthbreathing fanboys and, more exactly, the falling of countless masks of the betrayers and posers who finally felt themselves to be of a sufficient majority to come out of their closets and openly admit they like shit games now. Of course any idiotic mouthbreathing fanboy will try to defend his brethren from being called for what they truly are. Everyone who bought that game here gave his small contribution to the decline, so don't even try to defend the people who act as pathetically as the "Boycott Modern Warfare 2" group to the few who still truly care about the direction of gaming industry. You already voted with your wallets for more decline.

More on that is for another thread.

On this, it sounds like good for what it is. I stopped bothering with JRPGs, for although they are almost always not my cup of tea, the Western mainstream "RPGs" are far ahead of Japan in terms of decline nowadays, although some companies are trying to catch up.
 

Sukeban Cho

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369
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DaJi's school for fine ladies.
Not really. Showing their sacrifice directly on their countenance goes directly against what the sacrifice tried to achieve. For a charismatic, beautiful and graceful thief, I would prefer to see the price she paid shown in a big meltdown, when her all her plans and schemes fail and, frustrated beyond belief, she finally lets the facade fall and shows her ugly, hurt, true face for all to see.

The problem is that beauty in the form we are talking about doesn't work that way.

Models, Idols, Fashionistas, and other image conscious girls, and boys though to a lesser extent, literally destroy their bodies to look that way. It may not show in their countenance, obviously, but it would show on any physical activity they try to participate in. Beautiful, graceful, charismatic thief?

Let's talk about the example I know the most about. One of the most important parts of a girl's image are her legs. Something that most men don't understand, however, is that a girl's leg look completely different with heels and without heels. Most girls who care enough for their appearance use not only some kind of heels but, also, padding inside their shoes not only to look taller but to shape their legs and their posture in the way that looks best by tensing her muscles and distributing weight differently. This is even more important given the best leg length to total height ratio puts leg length above fifty-five percent of the total height, and ratios were leg length is below fifty percent are considered pretty much "you are ugly and can't do anything about it, live with it. Or better just shoot yourself and save us the disgust."

The problem is that a girl that goes through that in her daily life can't be a thief nor a warrior, for example, given the effect heels and pads have on the feet of girls that wear them too much can have them needing painkillers to walk at thirty, and WILL have them needing painkillers to walk later on. So while your sorceress or priestess, as no physical character can go through that, will have some hot legs your party will need to keep the painkillers flowing, stopping when she needs to rest for days because her legs reject to work any longer, etc. Those are the "physical consequences" I was talking about, not being ugly.

Then, the best proportions for legs is around 5-3-2 (though some say 4 1/2-3-2 instead), and even those, which most girls will not have naturally, will look awful if the girl's legs aren't long enough. To get those proportions, as they do too to get most other correct proportions, girls who are into beauty and fashion must not only go through training and dieting hell but go through particular types of training that are focused on beauty and image instead of health or fitness, and design series of exercises accordingly. This means your sorceress or priestess needs to spend a great deal of the game training in ways that are painful and unbalanced, feeling like shit because their bad diet, and vomiting behind a tree because their stomach is rejecting the heavy and solid food of an adventurer. Those are "physical consequences", too. Not to mention the stress of having the physical activity of their life as an adventurer getting in the way of their carefully built exercising plans, and thus needing weekly visits to her image trainer to correct and adapt the training plan.

Even with that most girls' legs will not reach 5-3-2 (nor 4 1/2-3-2) naturally. What's left? Of course, atrophiating their leg muscles (and other muscles, too, to keep their respective proportions) wholly or partially (only some muscles) by physical or chemical means is one of the preferred methods by the modeling and entertainment industry.

Not to mention the kind of shit girls had to go through, and many still go through (only of their own free will now), for things like hand and feet size, neck shape, waist to hip ratio, etc. And that's just one part of the body, mentioned very superficially. Add all of them for physical consequences, and the personality disorders of their lifestyle to boot. And the time requirements, makeup transformed into an art, the way the "correct" way to walk and sit and stand fucks you royally, etc.

So as long as there isn't a "courtesan", "idol", "socialite", "debutante", or similar class whose entire function is to be beautiful, charming, charismatic, fashionable, and endearing be prepared for all female characters in games looking pedestrian, ugly, butch, brutish, and, at best, "girl next door" with a tendency towards "I wouldn't touch that with a teen foot long pole."
 

Bruma Hobo

Lurker
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Messages
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Considering the amount of effort done by so many to defend such Skyrimjob crap from any criticism here back in those days, that is a pretty dishonest and tame way of seeing it. No, it was a full fledged face-heel-turn into being idiotic mouthbreathing fanboys and, more exactly, the falling of countless masks of the betrayers and posers who finally felt themselves to be of a sufficient majority to come out of their closets and openly admit they like shit games now. Of course any idiotic mouthbreathing fanboy will try to defend his brethren from being called for what they truly are. Everyone who bought that game here gave his small contribution to the decline, so don't even try to defend the people who act as pathetically as the "Boycott Modern Warfare 2" group to the few who still truly care about the direction of gaming industry. You already voted with your wallets for more decline.

Never change, Skyw... Oh, wait.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
What happened on 11/11/11?
I'm baffled you forgot it. It was the day when you and other cRPG enthusiasts like Twinfalls showed up to drool over the latest entry to the Elder Turds saga on day 1. Awesome! Mature lore and stuffies! All is forgiven Todd!
All I recall us saying was that the game was fun, exploration was excellent and for all its flaws it was still a far better product than Oblivion - and as such, incline, by Bethesda standards. Nobody ever touted this game as a flawless RPG or the next PS:T. It's a hiking simulator, and a good one at that, like Morrowind, with some cool lore for the lorehounds, some eyecandy for those who like spelunking and somewhere in there there's also a crappy RPG.

Not sure why you make that into "all is forgiven, Todd!". Black & white worldview much? I always considered us to be gentlemen with refined opinions that are a little more sophisticated than "worst game ever!" and "best game ever!".

Considering the amount of effort done by so many to defend such Skyrimjob crap from any criticism here back in those days, that is a pretty dishonest and tame way of seeing it. No, it was a full fledged face-heel-turn into being idiotic mouthbreathing fanboys and, more exactly, the falling of countless masks of the betrayers and posers who finally felt themselves to be of a sufficient majority to come out of their closets and openly admit they like shit games now. Of course any idiotic mouthbreathing fanboy will try to defend his brethren from being called for what they truly are. Everyone who bought that game here gave his small contribution to the decline, so don't even try to defend the people who act as pathetically as the "Boycott Modern Warfare 2" group to the few who still truly care about the direction of gaming industry. You already voted with your wallets for more decline.

More on that is for another thread.

On this, it sounds like good for what it is. I stopped bothering with JRPGs, for although they are almost always not my cup of tea, the Western mainstream "RPGs" are far ahead of Japan in terms of decline nowadays, although some companies are trying to catch up.

What if you defended Skyrim but never bought it or even played it?
 
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I am very butthurt about the games I am not going to play regardless of any merit they may have, so I'll invent contrived reason why game XYZ is better and how it has "reasons" for bullshit art direction, thus proving my intellectual superiority douchebaggery and endless capacity to miss the fucking point.

Fix'd.

Take a cheel pill, brah.
I wasn't talking to you, subhuman trash. I don't care what you or other weeaboos play and get off to, as long as it isn't pinned on the home page, obscuring interesting things, like the interview with the GURPS guy. Go back to your pedo game and do not address your superiors without being spoken to.

You mean that interesting thread you didn't even reply to is being obscured by another thread which you've replied to three or four times? Tell me more.

Unorus Janco's pic says it all. Talk the talk, walk the walk, R00fles!, etc
 

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