JRPG 101 for the ignorant PC gamer

[aweigh]

The 3D remake of FF4 is one of the very few cases where the remake upgrades the difficulty balance (it's closer to the original japanese SNES cart).

Plus it looks great. Also I think the 3D remake of FF4 has a Steam port? Pretty sure it has one. If you're gonna play it on emulation I recommend the PSP port instead of the DS one (better graphics).

 

[Okagron]

I played all the FF 4 versions except the Japanese SNES version. English SNES and GBA have around the same difficulty (pretty much breezed through both with no issues). DS is one of the hardest version of the game (don't know if it's the hardest or just easier than the Japanese SNES since i haven't played that version). The PSP version is actually the easiest because, either intentional or not, enemies attack less often.

I agree with the two posters above me, the DS version is pretty good.

 

[Jasede]

I actually did play the original FF4 (the Japanese original SNES version) and can tell you right now that while it is substantially harder than the English FF4, it's also still quite a bit easier than FF4 DS without augments and about equal with.

 

[JarlFrank]

Western RPGs tend to be more conservative in their mechanics whereas Japanese ones are quite often experimental. Sometimes extremely so.

It's more than that though:
- Story vs agency
- Linearity vs reactivity
- Emphasis on pre-written characters
- Grinding
etc.

Also for the mechanics, I'd also add that JRPGs (at least newer ones) tend toward complicated and obtuse. Western games tend to come with a "manual" explaining most of the mechanics, while Japanese games tend to have a lot of hidden elements discoverable through insane timesinks - or googling. Most recent example: NiOh makes you choose your starting bonus and spirit without telling you what any of the stats do.

Are there any RPGs made in Japan that have a western approach to agency and reactivity?

I played Chrono Trigger and it was decent, but I hate how dialogues are essentially just cutscenes with zero agency, even modern Bioware trash lets me at least pick flavor options, in the JRPGs it seems like dialogue is completely non-interactive you just click enter and your protagonist says something, you can never choose what he says. Also the dialogues take a while to type out, with how non-interactive they are I wish I could just skip them cause I'm not interested in a 100% linear story where I have not even a flavor input. Completely puts me off.

One JRPG I enjoyed is Tactics Ogre but apparently that's a different subgenre called SRPG, with really good tactical combat and a couple of story choices which is really awesome.
If there are other games like this one, I'd love to play them because Tactics Ogre actually felt like an RPG to me.

 

[deama]

As someone who doesn't know the genre at all, what all would you say is the required knowledge and recommended playing for this glorious discipline? I (and am sure many others) am a complete noob to this genre, and didn't play the classics on console, and currently play only on PC. What kind of experiences am I missing out on, and what are the experiences I can currently get on PC? What games do you recommend playing, and why? In case of the old classics, what are the best ways to play them on PC (if it is even worth it)?

Also some general questions :

1. What exactly is a ''JRPG''? I have been led to believe it is an RPG with turn based combat and lots of grinding, is it true?

Basically yes, a majority of JRPGs like to employ a good amount of grinding and turn-based ideals. Though there are some exceptions such as Nioh/DS.

2. What are the classic JRPGs, what are considered pinnacles / good examples of the genre and what are some good modern ones?

I didn't really like any of the older JRPGs that much, so I wouldn't say they are the pinnacle, but some good mordern ones are:
Virgin island
Kamidori Alchemy Meister (a bit too much writing, but the game is fine)
Sengoku Rance (again, a bit too much writing, but the game is fine)
Disgaea (don't pay attention to the story)

3. How are JRPGs different from normal RPGs?

The difference between JRPGs and RPGs is that JRPGs like to put more emphasis on "friendship is magic", basically on the acomplishements of the "team", rather than the individual. This also causes there to be more "teen drama" shinanigans like one member being too emo for the group and splits with them, only to find out later that he belonged with them all along. Or one of the character moping around all the time until the right character tells him some good advice and he stops mopping and maybe gets a powerboost, or even some girl mopping around because her senpai doesn't notice her.

My favourite difference though is that JRPGs seem to give less of a shit about nudity and censoring, so you can find some JRPGs that have some good quality nudity/sex with not too badly implemented systems.

Also, something I forgot to mention, JRPGs seem to like to pad out their writing, so don't be scared to skip some of it once in a while.

4. Would you say it is a good idea to get into the genre? Ie would you recommend it considering the powerful experiences (sorry, no other words) or would you say it is more of an acquired taste / niche interest?

I would say, yes it's definitely worth getting into the genre. If you're a women, you'll enjoy the teen drama; and if you're a man, you'll enjoy the nudity + decent systems.

The only exception is if you like to keep nudity seperate from your games, or if you actually want to have an interesting philosophical discussion. Sadly there aren't any planescape torments, mask of the betrayers, or KOTOR 2s. I've played JRPGs that have been praised to have good story, only to find out that it was good for an "anime". Also, something to keep in mind: JRPGs don't like to give you choice in their stories, so if you don't like the direction the story is heading in, tough luck.

There is one JRPG that I've played that seems to have some decent reactivity and choice though: Virgin island.

5. And finally, why are games like Nioh and Dark Souls discussed on this subforum when they're more like 3D fighting games? Is it just because they were made in Japan?

Basically cause they come from Japan. Anything that comes from Japan and has mild RPG stuff in it is called a JRPG.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I played Chrono Trigger and it was decent, but I hate how dialogues are essentially just cutscenes with zero agency, even modern Bioware trash lets me at least pick flavor options, in the JRPGs it seems like dialogue is completely non-interactive you just click enter and your protagonist says something, you can never choose what he says. Also the dialogues take a while to type out, with how non-interactive they are I wish I could just skip them cause I'm not interested in a 100% linear story where I have not even a flavor input. Completely puts me off.

If you want reactivity then Way of the Samurai 3 has it in spades. Dialogue choices can take you down many, many different paths. Sometimes saying nothing at all, or leaving mid cutscene can also yield new outcomes. Or drawing your sword. During cutscenes you can at any time simply bow out and walk away or draw your sword to provoke / challenge the person. WotS is a CYOA styled Action/Adventure series with multiple endings and the whole gimmick of the games is its C&C. It follows a sort of Gothic-style pattern of you being some newfag who enters a town / place and there are several factions at play and you can choose to join any of them, or none of them. Many people like WotS4 more, but I found that WotS3 had more reactivity. Both games are on Steam.

 

[vonAchdorf]

Both games are on Steam.

And GOG if that's of interest.

 

[deama]

I played Chrono Trigger and it was decent, but I hate how dialogues are essentially just cutscenes with zero agency, even modern Bioware trash lets me at least pick flavor options, in the JRPGs it seems like dialogue is completely non-interactive you just click enter and your protagonist says something, you can never choose what he says. Also the dialogues take a while to type out, with how non-interactive they are I wish I could just skip them cause I'm not interested in a 100% linear story where I have not even a flavor input. Completely puts me off.

If you want reactivity then Way of the Samurai 3 has it in spades. Dialogue choices can take you down many, many different paths. Sometimes saying nothing at all, or leaving mid cutscene can also yield new outcomes. Or drawing your sword. During cutscenes you can at any time simply bow out and walk away or draw your sword to provoke / challenge the person. WotS is a CYOA styled Action/Adventure series with multiple endings and the whole gimmick of the games is its C&C. It follows a sort of Gothic-style pattern of you being some newfag who enters a town / place and there are several factions at play and you can choose to join any of them, or none of them. Many people like WotS4 more, but I found that WotS3 had more reactivity. Both games are on Steam.

I think I played WotS4 or maybe 3? Anyway, I remember it being easy to break, the controls were shit, and the game was locked to 30fps. Are there any fixes to the issues I've had or perhaps some tutorial on youtube or something to help me along?

 

[Hobo Elf]

Since I played these games on a console a decade ago, I have no idea if they have any PC patches that unlock the fps, or if they are is natively better.

 

[Damned Registrations]

One JRPG I enjoyed is Tactics Ogre but apparently that's a different subgenre called SRPG, with really good tactical combat and a couple of story choices which is really awesome.
If there are other games like this one, I'd love to play them because Tactics Ogre actually felt like an RPG to me.

I'd recommend Final Fantasy Tactics, it's got very similar gameplay, and although it doesn't have the same kind of branching story/reactivity, it does have a solid, mature story. Both translations have their flaws, but they don't hurt the story much either way, it does a great job with making the cutscenes/plot eventful, instead of just being exposition dumps. Most of the strategy games definitely tend towards more mature audiences, and there's plenty in the genre worth a look just for the gameplay. Even something like Vanguard Bandits, which is pretty rough in a lot of ways, has a branching story and some decently challenging combat at some points.

Romancing SaGa is a better series for reactivity, and while SaGa Frontier doesn't have much in the way of branching stories or C&C, it does have a pretty open world setup for almost all the characters to varying degrees, and some really cool mechanics for building your party. I didn't care for the combat/party building in Romancing SaGa 2, but it definitely felt like a pretty open CYOA sort of rpg, with plenty of minor consequences as I played through the first couple chapters.

Lastly, the original Ogre Battle is a real gem worth giving a try imo. It's got plenty of C&C, although it's mostly in the form of a right/wrong path with plenty of things you can miss. That said, if you're willing to just play it blind, you might really enjoy how reactive the world is to things you do, and even the 'wrong' paths can offer interesting things to do and useful rewards.

 

[Sigourn]

I'm thinking that if you are new with the genre, the best thing to do is to play the "classics" first. It may sound obvious, but it's hard to know if you like a genre if you only play the more obscure games not everyone has experience with. For instance, I'm playing Glory of Heracles III, and I have to admit it is pretty shit from a gameplay perspective and only "interesting" because of the setting and how the story progresses. Not the actual story itself, but literally what causes it to progress (for instance, crossdressing).

Now, a JRPG fan may play this and think "omg this game is great, a hidden gem!!". But how would I know? It's been years since I've played Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, and Super Mario RPG. I don't know if I would enjoy them nowadays, so I don't have a "JRPG bar" to compare Glory of Heracles III to. It may be that this particular sucks, or it could be that most of the genre sucks.

Final Fantasy IV was also a terrible game, and Final Fantasy V was less infuriating, but mediocre nonetheless, to the point I simply stopped playing after defeating Gilgamesh in the big bridge. The job system is nice on paper, until you realize it changes nothing elsewhere in the game except what you decide to kill your enemy with. And it's not particularly exciting combat either, mechanically speaking, and from a sound & visual perspective either.

 

[aweigh]

Branching story states != reactivity

 

[Dzupakazul]

it changes nothing elsewhere in the game except what you decide to kill your enemy with

But that's honestly all the fun. Most combat-centric games wish they allowed you to truly allow you a multitude of decisions on how to kill stuff. FF5 is joyous. Also, very fun for all sorts of variant fuckery that I've only seen in M&M and Wizardry threads otherwise, where people share their unorthodox team combos and win the game with those.

 

[FuckLiefeldGiveMeChew]

Some great JRPGs to try:

Dark Half: A very atmospheric, fun, relatively fast paced despite being turn based, challenging and interesting game about a Paladin and an evil God working against each other. You play both characters and each has a different combat system.

Mother: The strangest game series. Its gameplay is quite flawed, but I love the games because they are so surreal. Talk to all of the NPCs and look at everything

Xenoblade: Three of my favorite games. They have great stories, complex open worlds, creative monster and stage designs, great characters and a lot of depth. X lets you ride giant flying robots.

Metroid and Zelda: The definitive action RPGs--fuck Diablo--with high difficulty levels, many hidden items, complex dungeons, challenging and creative bosses and great styles. 2D Zeldas are by far the best, but the 3D ones are still great, except Wind Waker. Fuck Wind Waker.

Mario versus Rabbids: Kingdom Battle: Even more weird and fun then the other classic Rayman and Mario games. Turn based but proceeds at a very fast pace and incredibly fun. Quite challenging, but there are no trash mobs and no need to grind--all the battles are pre-planned and I was able to beat it without replaying any fights, only using easy mode for the four-part fight at the end and the final boss.

Shin Megami Tensei and Persona: Great challenging games with complex themes, great characters, a wide variety of creative enemies and a really fun system in which you fuse together monsters to create new ones which become party members. Shin Megami Tensei will also appeal to fans ofCRPGs since it uses similar gameplay to Wizardry. Avoid Shin Megami Tensei 2, which is almost as repetitive, boring and pointless as Dragon Age 2.

Little King's Story: Combines every form of gameplay, subtle themes, merciless difficulty, an incredibly surreal style and a lot of charm into a true masterpiece. This is one of the least surreal moments: *https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=C0CKytWCO3c*

Half Minute Hero: A game with a twist: You only have half a minute to complete each quest. Random encounters become a lot more exciting when each one depletes your very limited time. It also functions as a hilarious parody of the genre.

Lufia 2: A great game which explores the part of the story that is usually ignored: After the hero gets the girl, the last half of the story starts and shows the rest of their lives. Avoid the awful remake.

Grandia 2: A fun RPG with great characters. Your characters are a cynical, agnostic rogue and a fanatical nun and the interplay between them is quite good, reminiscent of Han and Leia in Star Wars but with its own style.

Metal Saga and Metal max Returns: They seem like standard turn based games at first, but at the end of the end of the first dungeon you get a tank and then they become fucking awesome! Blowing shit up with tanks never gets boring.

Shadow Hearts: A great series with an unusual setting: The early 1900s, before World War II. It uses the setting very well despite some anachronisms.

Wild ARMS 3: A nice mix of the Wild West, fantasy and science fiction.

Dragon's Dogma: A great action RPG with really exciting and fun combat, a very good story that leaves some things to the imagination and nice characters.

 

[Hyperion]

Metroid and Zelda: The definitive action RPGs--fuck Diablo

I was on board with what you said....then I got here. Woof. Original Metroid is a great platformer, and I love Zelda up to and including Ocarina, but neither are comparable to Diablo. Not only are they apples to oranges, but I wouldn't put either of them anywhere near D1's level. The feeling from first seeing a bloodied, dying man telling you about The Butcher, then encountering him in a room filled with impaled corpses, mangled bodies, and gore splattered on the floor and walls is miles beyond anything the former games could do.

 

[Gerrard]

Nigger please, Diablo hasn't got shit on Ocarina's ending.

 

[Okagron]

But that's honestly all the fun. Most combat-centric games wish they allowed you to truly allow you a multitude of decisions on how to kill stuff. FF5 is joyous. Also, very fun for all sorts of variant fuckery that I've only seen in M&M and Wizardry threads otherwise, where people share their unorthodox team combos and win the game with those.

Can't brofist yet but all of this is why i like FF5 job system. It's fun coming up with new party combinations and then compare each others in terms of killing regular enemies and bosses.

Grandia 2: A fun RPG with great characters. Your characters are a cynical, agnostic rogue and a fanatical nun and the interplay between them is quite good, reminiscent of Han and Leia in Star Wars but with its own style.

Glad Grandia 2 is getting a mention, really enjoyed this one. Also a mention to the first Grandia, that one is also pretty good in my opinion.

 

[Irxy]

Lufia 2: A great game which explores the part of the story that is usually ignored: After the hero gets the girl, the last half of the story starts and shows the rest of their lives. Avoid the awful remake.

I also liked how the character seems to be paired with a boring childhood friend stereotype village girl from the beginning which fights with a frying pan, duh, but then he tells her to gtfo and marries a hot warrior chick. Not bad for a '95 anime romance.

 

[Sigourn]

I couldn't help find read the first few posts of this thread. I used to think there was something intrinsical about Japanese RPGs, but it's really as absurd as saing there's something intrinsical about western RPGs.

The only thing I've found you could say is general about Japanese RPGs is:

1. Anime/manga/Japanese culture.
2. And the aesthetic resulting from the above.

It's ultimately what makes or breaks JRPGs for a lot of people, myself included. Because disregarding mechanics, which come in different shapes and sizes in the different JRPGs (Dark Souls and Pokémon, for instance, are both Japanese and couldn't be that much different from each other), what usually annoys people about JRPGs that is almost exclusively found on JRPGs is the writing (understood both as "setting" and as the plots, the dialogues) and the aesthetic. I don't think this is minor: many JRPG fans outright refuse to play western RPGs because of the "realistic", "gritty" aesthetic.

Even "anime" is a broad statement. It can denote Vagrant Story/Final Fantasy Tactics as much as it can denote the Neptunia games.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Dark Souls is not a jRPG period

 

[Sigourn]

Dark Souls is not a jRPG period

That's the thing, though. Dark Souls is a JRPG. The reason it passes of as "not a JRPG" is because it is barely animu in its aesthetic, and it doesn't fit with the stereotypical definition of "JRPGs" as a genre (party-based, heavy focus on story, characters with defined personalities).

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Another reminder that Japanese-made RPGs and the JRPG subgenre are two distinct concepts.

 

[Somberlain]

First, we must answer the question: what is a JRPG?

 

[Sigourn]

Another reminder that Japanese-made RPGs and the JRPG subgenre are two distinct concepts.

With "JRPG sub-genre" meaning "story-focused RPG with established characters", more or less.

 

[Raghar]

First, we must answer the question: what is a JRPG?

RPG made in Japan. Japanese are typically copying 10 years old European and US games.