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Vapourware Josh Sawyer wants to make a historical RPG

KateMicucci

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As for knowledge of history, who gets a classical education these days? I hardly know anyone without a phd who can read Koine Greek. Josh is a genuine history dweeb—he made all the firearms in Pillars wheellocks, the beautiful bastard.

The representation of firearms in PoE was actually pretty bad. The blunderbuss flavor text calls it a matchlock even though the icon clearly isn't. The pistols and blunderbusses all appear to be based on 18th or early 19th century flintlock designs. The harquebuses are flintlock frankensteins with furniture that doesn't seem to belong to any single region or period and lever-style triggers more appropriate to matchlock designs. I only remember seeing a wheellock harquebuses in the concept art, and even that one looked retarded, with the funnel-shaped flared muzzle that artists love slapping on muskets.

I give Sawyer credit for including firearms in the game when many people thought that muzzleloaders were somehow too "steampunk" to fit in a fantasy setting, but their actual implementation in-game doesn't show any evidence of historical research whatsoever.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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As for knowledge of history, who gets a classical education these days? I hardly know anyone without a phd who can read Koine Greek. Josh is a genuine history dweeb—he made all the firearms in Pillars wheellocks, the beautiful bastard.

The representation of firearms in PoE was actually pretty bad. The blunderbuss flavor text calls it a matchlock even though the icon clearly isn't. The pistols and blunderbusses all appear to be based on 18th or early 19th century flintlock designs. The harquebuses are flintlock frankensteins with furniture that doesn't seem to belong to any single region or period and lever-style triggers more appropriate to matchlock designs. I only remember seeing a wheellock harquebuses in the concept art, and even that one looked retarded, with the funnel-shaped flared muzzle that artists love slapping on muskets.

I give Sawyer credit for including firearms in the game when many people thought that muzzleloaders were somehow too "steampunk" to fit in a fantasy setting, but their actual implementation in-game doesn't show any evidence of historical research whatsoever.

I thought I read an interview where he said the pistols wheelocks, but looking at the little images that’s obviously not the case. They can’t be true flintlocks either—the battery/pseudo-frizzen is wrong. Maybe a snaphance? I don’t know how much attention he devoted to these little images. Do the animations show any slow match? I don’t remember that.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer’s head. There’s also Rick’s nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they’re not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick & Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick’s existential catchphrase “Wubba Lubba Dub Dub,” which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev’s Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon’s genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Rick & Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It’s for the ladies’ eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they’re within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid

Hahahaha... old... seriously though, wouldn’t Dan Harmon be the perfect guy to play Feargus in a show about Obsidian?
 

Sannom

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Josh has said he wanted to flesh them out more and just didn’t have enough time. I doubt that meant making them more cartoonishly evil.
Heh, Sawyer hasn't been shy in some recent tumblr asks about how unapologetic he is for the Legion feeling so much more evil than the other factions, because as evil as they are, they're still believable. They're a slave army led by a tyrant, their numbers swelling from the tribes they encounter and conquer on their way, their society so unstable that Caesar feels he needs to add an already prosperous city to their territory if they want any shot at surviving in the long run, etc. They're something that you could see arise in the post-apocalyptic wasteland of the Fallout universe, but it's probably not something you would want to remain for long.
 

FreeKaner

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As for knowledge of history, who gets a classical education these days? I hardly know anyone without a phd who can read Koine Greek. Josh is a genuine history dweeb—he made all the firearms in Pillars wheellocks, the beautiful bastard.

The representation of firearms in PoE was actually pretty bad. The blunderbuss flavor text calls it a matchlock even though the icon clearly isn't. The pistols and blunderbusses all appear to be based on 18th or early 19th century flintlock designs. The harquebuses are flintlock frankensteins with furniture that doesn't seem to belong to any single region or period and lever-style triggers more appropriate to matchlock designs. I only remember seeing a wheellock harquebuses in the concept art, and even that one looked retarded, with the funnel-shaped flared muzzle that artists love slapping on muskets.

I give Sawyer credit for including firearms in the game when many people thought that muzzleloaders were somehow too "steampunk" to fit in a fantasy setting, but their actual implementation in-game doesn't show any evidence of historical research whatsoever.

The arquebus look like they just googled arquebus and went with an iteration of weapons from the google, which amongst them were various weapons from different time periods, because the ignition is a manner of snaplock while the trigger looks like early arquebus. Moreover they also have rapiers that are basically 19th century fencing foils rather than actual rapiers as well. However these are honestly minor facts, mostly fault of the 3d artist rather than writers and designers. From what's written in the game, weapon descriptions and some of the sketches, it's clear they intended matchlock arquebus and wheellock pistols.
 

fantadomat

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It is sad that the Legion didn't had anything in common with the real Romans. I still remember the disappointment during my first meetign with a legioner. I was hearing shit about them for some time and i was imagining a bunch of Legioners with gladiuses going around and putting the filthy barbarians to the sword and burning down the corrupt republicans. Turned out that they are a bunch of retarded muslim barbarians larping as Romans all covered in some junk. Lets just say that it didn't ended well for poor Vulpes Inculta and any other barbarian that came in my path. Had to purge both the corrupt democratic scum and the larpers my self.
 

Hobo Elf

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9OvFpIJ.jpg
 

hivemind

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It is sad that the Legion didn't had anything in common with the real Romans. I still remember the disappointment during my first meetign with a legioner. I was hearing shit about them for some time and i was imagining a bunch of Legioners with gladiuses going around and putting the filthy barbarians to the sword and burning down the corrupt republicans. Turned out that they are a bunch of retarded muslim barbarians larping as Romans all covered in some junk. Lets just say that it didn't ended well for poor Vulpes Inculta and any other barbarian that came in my path. Had to purge both the corrupt democratic scum and the larpers my self.
lmao you are actually so stupid it's unreal :lol:
 

fantadomat

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It is sad that the Legion didn't had anything in common with the real Romans. I still remember the disappointment during my first meetign with a legioner. I was hearing shit about them for some time and i was imagining a bunch of Legioners with gladiuses going around and putting the filthy barbarians to the sword and burning down the corrupt republicans. Turned out that they are a bunch of retarded muslim barbarians larping as Romans all covered in some junk. Lets just say that it didn't ended well for poor Vulpes Inculta and any other barbarian that came in my path. Had to purge both the corrupt democratic scum and the larpers my self.
lmao you are actually so stupid it's unreal :lol:
At least i am not a kebab :lol:.
 

Fairfax

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Josh has said he wanted to flesh them out more and just didn’t have enough time. I doubt that meant making them more cartoonishly evil.
Heh, Sawyer hasn't been shy in some recent tumblr asks about how unapologetic he is for the Legion feeling so much more evil than the other factions, because as evil as they are, they're still believable. They're a slave army led by a tyrant, their numbers swelling from the tribes they encounter and conquer on their way, their society so unstable that Caesar feels he needs to add an already prosperous city to their territory if they want any shot at surviving in the long run, etc. They're something that you could see arise in the post-apocalyptic wasteland of the Fallout universe, but it's probably not something you would want to remain for long.
The Legion is believable in the sense that a faction with that structure and behaviour could exist in such a setting, but they're too cartoony evil to be relatable. As a result, only evil PCs and completionists were interested in doing their quests, or roughly 13% of players who finished the game:

jzw1Df5.png


Having a major evil faction is fine, but the Legion in particular is a waste of a good concept, and it would've been more believable if it didn't pretend to be roman anyway. A more nuanced (and roman) faction, like the original VB concept, could've been much more interesting.
 

Roguey

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Look for that quote about their retarded testers too.

Even among hardcore PC RPG fans, there is a wide spectrum of skill, experience, and preference. When I started at Black Isle, I designed a bunch of fights in IWD that only a handful of veteran BG testers could get through. Memorably, I saw a QA tester blow a fuse because a fight in Lower Dorn's Deep was "impossible". When I showed him how I got through it, I started off by having my casters go through six rounds of buffs. "What are you doing?" he asked. "Uh... buffing my party?" This seemed normal to me. DUH YEAH BUFF YOUR PARTY TO HELL AND BACK LOCK AND LOAD PAY ATTENTION FFFFFFFFFF. Despite his high experience with RPGs and Baldur's Gate, he just... never thought of it. The problem was that the entire fight was balanced around a party that was optimally built and lit up like a Christmas tree from stacked buffs.

About halfway through IWD's development, a QA tester (who went on to become a pretty well-respected developer) came up to Black Isle and was furious at the difficulty of a fight in Lower Dorn's Deep. He had been trying to legitimately get through it for 2 hours and hadn't succeeded. Kihan Pak and I loaded it up and beat it on the first try. He asked to see what we were doing. Naturally, we were pre-buffing for 5-6 rounds before we even went into the fight. Because there was no opportunity cost to using buffs, this was "the way" to get through fights, but it was tedious -- and for people who were not D&D veterans, it was not something they ever thought to do, which resulted in a full roadblock (see also: Burial Isle misery, which was also pretty easy for me and Kihan).

Caesar's Legion is evidence that Sawyer isn't a SJW? You mean the completely evil faction with absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever, except for a few grudging comments that they protect their own caravans really well because it behooves them to do so?

If you side with the Legion, Caesar succeeds in making sure the trains run on time. "Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland."

Though if you kill him during his surgery, then yeah, Lanius kills just about everyone.

What about the Followers, the faction that the character Josh wrote just happens to belong to, who have no ethical flaws whatsoever and are completely good?

That one Follower slept with Benny. :M

His earnest depiction of religious Christianity? You mean the guy who says (and I quote) that killing an entire tribe is "just another chore" as long as it's the will of the Lord? Also, Mormonism is a relatively tiny offshoot of Christianity with stark dogmatic differences, like magic underpants and a prophet who is the founder of Mormonism.

What's wrong with that? Most players agree with him.

Sawyer said:
I had wanted to develop a religious conflict in an RPG for a while, one that wasn't presented as pro-religion vs. anti-religion. I didn't want to use a proxy/fictitious religion and I didn't want to use religion as the set-up for a series of jokes. My first idea for Honest Hearts was a direct conflict between Joshua and Daniel where Joshua was more like his pre-fall self, but I didn't think the characterization would be particularly interesting and I didn't think players would struggle much with the decision of whom to support. It didn't take long for me to change the main conflict to one about Joshua and Daniel vs. an external threat, with the player's choice revolving around which leader to support. I think we often present players with a choice between two bad solutions and we ask them to decide which one is least bad. With Honest Hearts, I wanted the player to decide which solution would produce the most good.

I wanted the player's first encounter with Joshua to be very reductive. In way, I wanted the player to be initially disappointed. They hear legends of this fearsome, terrible, demonic figure and when they first see him, he's doing the equivalent of putting his pants on one leg at a time: sitting at a table maintaining a stack of guns. Even internally, some people complained about his appearance. They wanted him to be huge and monstrous or they wanted his first encounter with the player to involve him brutally gunning down White Legs. I believed that for his character to feel right in the context of the story, he needed to be a man first and the monster later. But that expressed desire on the team made me ask for the graffiti players see on the way to see Joshua: an entire cliff face dominated by the image of Joshua with tiny White Leg corpses falling down below him. In the image, he's like Goya's Saturn, dwarfing and destroying everyone around him.

Presenting the conflict with Daniel posed some challenges because Daniel is not a living legend, i.e. he is even more of a normal man than Joshua is trying to be. Additionally, Mormonism is not a pacifistic religion (and its soteriology does not depend on pacifism), so the conflict could not reasonably by framed around violence vs. non-violence even in the post-apocalyptic version followed by the New Canaanites. Daniel's concern was about larger issues than fighting or not-fighting; he was concerned that Joshua's lapsed nature would cause a whirlwind of warfare that would pull everyone far away New Canaanite traditions to the point where religion was virtually abandoned in favor of a war cult surrounding Joshua.

I had expected that most people would support Joshua, in part because of Joshua as a character but also because of the nature of gameplay in Fallout (i.e., violence is almost always a solution). I did not expect that the Survivalist's logs (written by John Gonzalez) would push so many more people toward supporting Joshua. I think it's an interesting example of players finding their own connections between the two stories and making an emotional connection that pushes them in a particular direction.
 

fantadomat

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Josh has said he wanted to flesh them out more and just didn’t have enough time. I doubt that meant making them more cartoonishly evil.
Heh, Sawyer hasn't been shy in some recent tumblr asks about how unapologetic he is for the Legion feeling so much more evil than the other factions, because as evil as they are, they're still believable. They're a slave army led by a tyrant, their numbers swelling from the tribes they encounter and conquer on their way, their society so unstable that Caesar feels he needs to add an already prosperous city to their territory if they want any shot at surviving in the long run, etc. They're something that you could see arise in the post-apocalyptic wasteland of the Fallout universe, but it's probably not something you would want to remain for long.
The Legion is believable in the sense that a faction with that structure and behaviour could exist in such a setting, but they're too cartoony evil to be relatable. As a result, only evil PCs and completionists were interested in doing their quests, or roughly 13% of players who finished the game:

jzw1Df5.png


Having a major evil faction is fine, but the Legion in particular is a waste of a good concept, and it would've been more believable if it didn't pretend to be roman anyway. A more nuanced (and roman) faction, like the original VB concept, could've been much more interesting.
They are very cartoonish to say the least,another problem is how they have not that many quests and all of them conflicting with other factions. Which means that you will be cut off from decent amount of content,while the other factions let you do a lot of quests.
 

Blaine

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What's wrong with that? Most players agree with him.

Most players essentially behave as though they're neutral evil—stealing anything that catches their eye, doing whatever they can get away with, killing for fun or just to see what happens, and backing lulzy concepts ("Genocide is the only answer the to White Legs menace!") because it's just a game.

Yes, that's right, folks, you heard it from me: In all likelihood, your Courier wasn't good, or even neutral, but evil. Don't forget that the karma system is completely fucked up, and that the biggest source of good karma in New Vegas is shooting people in the teeth.
 

Blaine

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In all seriousness, as much flak as Bethesda got for allowing players to gain karma by giving water to a hobo, Obsidian somehow didn't manage to fix the karma system in New Vegas except by abstracting the score into saved game names.

For one thing, you can do the exact same thing in Honest Hearts: Turn in Healing Powder for +5 Karma each. Between Healing Powder direct looting and the quadrillions of Broc Flowers and Xander Roots available, it's easy to completely reverse your karmic fortunes.

Meanwhile, stealing a few hundred tin cans and clipboards will turn you into a supervillain, but rescuing every poor sap in sight, killing every named evil character, and completing all of the quests in the game that can reward karma won't be able to repair it.

Pro bono dentistry for the Fiends, though? Congratulations! You're the Messiah!
 

Roguey

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Most players essentially behave as though they're neutral evil—stealing anything that catches their eye, doing whatever they can get away with, killing for fun or just to see what happens, and backing lulzy concepts ("Genocide is the only answer the to White Legs menace!") because it's just a game.

Yes, that's right, folks, you heard it from me: In all likelihood, your Courier wasn't good, or even neutral, but evil. Don't forget that the karma system is completely fucked up, and that the biggest source of good karma in New Vegas is shooting people in the teeth.

The ones doing it because of the survivalist's logs are good. :P Specifically

I've been leaving notes for them, and gifts.

They like the books. Started with stories but moved on to weapons manuals, medical books, practical stuff.

In the notes, well it's embarrassing, almost like those cards people used to give each other, everything sweet and loving. I tell them to read and to learn and to make the most of their new home. I tell them I'm giving them Zion as a gift to make up for all the sorrows of their lives so far and all the sorrows man has visited on man. I tell them to be kind to each other and modest. I tell them never to hurt each other but that if someone else comes along and tries to hurt them to strike back with righteous anger. Stuff like that. I sign every note "The Father", because well, just because.
 

Blaine

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The ones doing it because of the survivalist's logs are good. :P Specifically

It's true that the only correct choice is to cleanse the White Legs from the face of the Earth—for Randall, the Father in the Caves, and also for our Heavenly Father, who washes away our sins and cleanses us of our iniquities.

This is strictly an Old Testament job, though.
 

Roguey

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The game will take place in Africa before the colonists came.
People have asked Josh if he'd be interested in making a game set in Africa and he said he'd be ill-suited for it, because he really only knows European and (North) American history.
 

Jenkem

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Make the Codex Great Again! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I helped put crap in Monomyth
The game will take place in Africa before the colonists came.
People have asked Josh if he'd be interested in making a game set in Africa and he said he'd be ill-suited for it, because he really only knows European and (North) American history.

Black Panther is the highest grossing documentary ever made and rife for branching out into different media.
 

Blaine

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Acknowledging Josh's agenda here: he knows this is a racebaited trap.

Well that, and also no one knows much about African history before colonists came, because no civilization anywhere on the continent had progressed much past the Stone Age, let alone developed written languages.

There are long lists of "pre-colonial" African civilizations that are, in fact, essentially instances of ancient European, Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, and possibly even Asian pseudo-colonization of Africa; franchises of greater civilizations, if you will. When the parent civilizations collapsed, native Africans went back to poking things with sticks and living in dung huts.
 
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Ninjerk

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Acknowledging Josh's agenda here: he knows this is a racebaited trap.

Well that, and also no one knows much about African history before colonists came, because no civilization anywhere on the continent had progressed much past the Stone Age, let alone developed written languages.

There are long lists of "pre-colonial" African civilizations that are, in fact, essentially instances of ancient European, Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, and possibly even Asian pseudo-colonization of Africa; franchises of greater civilizations, if you will. When the parent civilizations collapsed, native Africans went back to poking things with sticks and living in dung huts.
Tell me you can't imagine an RPG spanning Northern Africa during the Umayyad expansion, culminating in the Battle of Tours. I dare you.
 

Blaine

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Tell me you can't imagine an RPG spanning Northern Africa during the Umayyad expansion, culminating in the Battle of Tours. I dare you.

Oh, I can definitely see an RPG based on a clash between European Christian and Arab Muslim civilizations.

I'd actually really like to see an RPG set in Mesoamerica or Africa, featuring natives exclusively. Shit, one of my favorite, if not my favorite historical fiction novel is Aztec by Gary Jennings. Spanish conquistadors feature only at the end/as part of the metanarrative.
 

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