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Vapourware Josh Sawyer wants to make a historical RPG

Kyl Von Kull

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Historical fiction sucks, honestly. There is no point to it, history already exists and requires no fiction to be indulged or researched. Moreover when a person or a group of people attempt to create historical fiction, they will not be able to even come close to depth, complexity and variety real history offers, after all its a story of countless people.

However a low fantasy fiction interwoven in historicity and verisimilitude could be extremely appealing if the intricacies of loose belief systems, court intrigue and faction politics were to be applied successfully. However that is not about a game being historical, that's about a game being in-depth.

I generally agree that historical truth is more entertaining than historical fiction, but for periods where we have less documentation well-researched fiction can be excellent. I loved Gore Vidal’s Julian, even though he basically just did to Ammianus Marcellinus what Robert Graves did to Suetonius. Although Suetonius was basically writing historical fiction at the time and that’s pretty great, too.

Hillary Mantel’s books on the French Revolution and Thomas Cromwell also get a big thumbs up. But she’s writing about real people and the fiction is mostly just covering gaps in the historical record.
 

Brancaleone

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Yeah, I'm curious too, if there would have been any danger of Obsidian being sued for plagiarizing the implementation of D&D rules for real-time combat in an Infinity Engine game :D
For that side of the issue, I'd say their priority was to have a system that is different enough to justify other developers forking money in order to use it in their own games. I wouldn't be surprised if (over-optimistic) franchising considerations played some part in the development of the system.
 

Trashos

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Historical fiction sucks, honestly. There is no point to it, history already exists and requires no fiction to be indulged or researched. Moreover when a person or a group of people attempt to create historical fiction, they will not be able to even come close to depth, complexity and variety real history offers, after all its a story of countless people.

However a low fantasy fiction interwoven in historicity and verisimilitude could be extremely appealing if the intricacies of loose belief systems, court intrigue and faction politics were to be applied successfully. However that is not about a game being historical, that's about a game being in-depth.

Couldn't disagree more with your 1st sentence. In a different life I could be a historian, in this life I am not, and I enjoy every bit of history I can get my hands on.

Also, knowing history (which humanity is already lacking) and understanding history are 2 different things. Making stories up in a truthful historical setting is a great way of digging into it, both from a historical and a philosophical perspective.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Poet > Historian, poetry > history

What kind of poets are we talking about here? Some of the best poetry is history, or at least was treated as such by its original audience: the Norse sagas, the Iliad, even Lucian’s Civil War. FYI Lucian was also the first science fiction writer: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_True_Story

I spit on most poetry written after the rise of mass literacy (it’s a preliterate art form meant to be memorized and recited, not read). But if you’re talking about, say, Archilochus, who according to tradition drove his ex-fiancé, her father and her sister to suicide with his poems, then I agree. Anyone other than Archilochus or maybe some Sappho fragments and I disagree strongly, unless you’re also including playwrights as poets.

Long story short: Thucydides > Theognis. Herodotus > Hesiod.
 

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Historical fiction sucks, honestly. There is no point to it, history already exists and requires no fiction to be indulged or researched. Moreover when a person or a group of people attempt to create historical fiction, they will not be able to even come close to depth, complexity and variety real history offers, after all its a story of countless people.

However a low fantasy fiction interwoven in historicity and verisimilitude could be extremely appealing if the intricacies of loose belief systems, court intrigue and faction politics were to be applied successfully. However that is not about a game being historical, that's about a game being in-depth.
Dartagnan-musketeers.jpg
 
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Lilura

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Poetry is better at history than history itself is.
 

FreeKaner

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Historical fiction sucks, honestly. There is no point to it, history already exists and requires no fiction to be indulged or researched. Moreover when a person or a group of people attempt to create historical fiction, they will not be able to even come close to depth, complexity and variety real history offers, after all its a story of countless people.

However a low fantasy fiction interwoven in historicity and verisimilitude could be extremely appealing if the intricacies of loose belief systems, court intrigue and faction politics were to be applied successfully. However that is not about a game being historical, that's about a game being in-depth.
Dartagnan-musketeers.jpg

I prefer Don Quijote. Although again this comes to my second point, three musketeers isn't good because it's historical fiction, it's good because it is a well written novel with in-depth characterisation, it would be similarly good maybe even better if it had fictitious or fantastic background.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Poetry is better at history than history itself is.

I disagree. No matter how much I might like the sagas and the pseudo historical epics, well-written primary source prose history has them beat. I’ll take Tacitus or Procopius or Xenophon or Ammianus over the eddas any day of the week. You find poetry as history in pre-literate societies like the pagan Norse or Bronze dark age Greece. Once they stole themselves an alphabet, you start getting excellent prose history.
 
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Lilura

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Didn't Cervantes pen Don Quixote while imprisoned? Pretty impressive, if true.

Kyl Von Kull Well, you're limiting yourself to the Greeks and Old Gods. And not a very wide range.

And yes, I've read Herodotus, Thucydides and Xenophon. Thucydides was best. But the pre-Socratic philosophers were the best reads for me (Heraclitus).
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Didn't Cervantes pen Don Quixote while imprisoned? Pretty impressive, if true.

Kyl Von Kull Well, you're limiting yourself to the Greeks and Old Gods. And not a very wide range.

I’m limiting the discussion to epic poetry that can be defined even as pseudo history. I doubt you mean to include something lyric like The Charge of the Light Brigade, since you are not a scrub.

I’ll spot you old Anglo Saxon epics—not much different from the sagas—and some of the gaelic cattle raid epics, and the Persian book of kings and even the song of Roland. I know there’s supposed to be a good Tamil historical epic but I’ve never read it. At a certain point, though, it’s not history anymore: not the Kelevala, not Gilgamesh etc... although maybe that’s being unfair if I’m counting the Iliad.

The thing is, you stop getting history as poetry pretty quickly once people learn to read in meaningful enough numbers. I don’t think romances count—they’re more like proto novels and were meant to be read, not spoken.

And yes, I've read Herodotus, Thucydides and Xenophon. Thucydides was best. But the pre-Socratic philosophers were the best reads for me (Heraclitus)

It’s a tragedy that we have so little left of Heraclitus, who is indeed the best (although that may be because his best sayings were preserved while his dumber stuff, if it existed, didn’t survive. Whereas we have nearly all of Plato and Aristotle’s bad ideas). Did you read Xenophon’s Socrates or the Anabasis? Because his philosophy is ok, but the memoir is incredible.

If you like your ancient history dry like Thucydides, read some of the Romans. Tacitus is unparalleled in terms of his prose—more of a sense of humor than Thucydides, but a very dry one. During the French Revolution, Desmoulins, the guy who led the taking of the Bastille, published a passage from Tacitus about the brutal reign of Domitian in his newspaper as an indirect-but-on-the-nose critique of the terror and it was enough to get him executed despite being one of Robespierre’s best friends.

Less dry, Ammianus Marcellinus and Procopius have a bit more of a memoir feel to them. Neither is as punchy as Tacitus but they tell a damn good story. Honestly, even some old Athenian and Roman trial transcripts can have more drama, albeit of a down to earth variety, than epics.
 
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Lilura

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Btw, I was including playwrights as poets. The best poetry is not Greek, though.

Anyway, I waited over half an hour for your response and I'm tired now, so I'll try to get back to you tomorrow.

Cheers.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Btw, I was including playwrights as poets. The best poetry is not Greek, though.

Anyway, I waited over half an hour for your response and I'm tired now, so I'll try to get back to you tomorrow.

Cheers.

Sorry, if I’d known you were waiting I wouldn’t have typed this on my phone.
 

Curious_Tongue

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Ultimately, Obsidian wrote and portrayed them as thoroughly evil. Individual Legionaries' motivations are nearly always debase, lustful, violent, etc.

I don't remember any legionnaires with such motivations.

Could you provide examples?
 
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Blaine

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I tried to borrow a bunch of ammo from their barracks, and they just attacked me. What more evidence do you need?
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Tamil historical epic
Exactly where the zog do you live and what the zog do you do that you know of Tamil as a language, let alone the existence of Tamil historical epics?

I live in NYC; my job is very non academic and only internationally oriented in terms of foreign equity markets. I’ve never even been to Asia. I hung out with a lot of international kids in college, including a Tamil Sri Lankan guy and a girl from Chennai who were proud of their culture if not their suicide bombing co-ethnics, but I was definitely aware of Tamil before then. I mean, when I was a kid the Tamils were one side of the longest running civil war on earth. Plus, Tamil Tigers just rolls off the tongue—sounds like it should be a soccer team not a socialist revolutionary army.

Didn’t realize they were that obscure. I thought people at least liked M.I.A. but maybe they don’t realize how literal her music is. Also, isn’t Chennai one of the more popular tourist destinations in India? I’ve wanted to go for years but fear I will offend the locals by talking about how cool it is to be in Madras.

The epic i’m thinking of is probably tail/story of the anklet? I was told to read it in school but never got past the first few pages of the translation because I narrowed the focus of the term paper it was for.
 
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Blaine

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To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer’s head. There’s also Rick’s nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they’re not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick & Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick’s existential catchphrase “Wubba Lubba Dub Dub,” which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev’s Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon’s genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Rick & Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It’s for the ladies’ eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they’re within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid
 

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