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Josh Sawyer Q&A Thread

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
The traditional answer to things like high powered outliers is hard counters. I realize that is easier to effect in a weekly tableotop session than in a PC game where the whole campaign is roadmapped in advance, because the designer can never be sure what the player's party composition will be or which loot drops they will equip, but meta gameplay that evolves due to unexpected discoveries of treasure and ability is sort of what makes RPGs fun to play.

The absence of high powered outliers that suddenly change everything (say from using your fighter as a linebacker to protect your mages to suddenly being your primary damage dealer who mages buff and support) is part of what keeps 70 hour games engaging to play, because the evolving meta discourages you from spamming tactics.
 
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Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
He does have a point there. But he doesn't seem to touch the criticism about over-balancing he gets, where his tunings often make everything feel flat and samey since all's finetuned to such lengths that it doesn't feel like much of anything; and to which he himself is probably blind to due to having played with numbers so much (e.g. seeing a big effective difference in math that's more or less irrelevant in all practical ways to a normal eye that doesn't immediately overthink it and calculate what it might mean if it's ten or twentyfold).
The question is what you mean by "flat".

Is it "+15% looks too boring, why can't it be +3 instead"?

Or is it "Why is this all just numbers? I want an ability that gives my character an extra arm that can wield its own weapon while turning 1d4 enemies into chickens."

IMO, the absence of things like the latter is fundamentally a content production issue rather than a balance issue.
 

SausageInYourFace

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Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
and to which he himself is probably blind to due to having played with numbers so much (e.g. seeing a big effective difference in math that's more or less irrelevant in all practical ways to a normal eye that doesn't immediately overthink it and calculate what it might mean

"+15% looks too boring, why can't it be +3 instead"

+2dmg is immediately understandable and accessible to anybody. So when you find a +5 sword per attack you blow a load in your pants cause you can grasp right away the massive difference in relation to the other.

When I find a thing that gives me +3% of anything for 1.16 seconds over something that gives me +1.5% for 0.76 seconds, that just something where some (or most) players will just go whatever and zone out because they have no immediate grasp on what these numbers even mean or how they relate to each other. Just equip what seems to make you a tiny bit stronger and move on with your life. Of course, that also means that you will rarely get excited when you find something new.

So the problem is ultimately not the balancing itself, it is that the system is inaccessible and superficially meaningless. (edit: for what I assume is the average player, I should add)


Of course thats all old news, strange that he puts out a whole blog post about balance now. :deadhorse:

Edit:
Compare btw to Div: OS which I am playing some more atm. Now that system has problems on its own but when I find an item that gives me +1 intelligence and I notice right away that lowers my cooldown for a whole turn, thats something that has an easily noticeable effect without having to think about for more than a split second. None of that 0.x seconds stuff.
 
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Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Somebody asked him about it. Also, there's likely about to be a promotional blitz for PoE2 at E3 so he's in a talkative mode.
 

undecaf

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
The question is what you mean by "flat"

I can't figure a better explanation right now (at work) than "too even" or "too smoothed out" for anything to really stand out (at a level up, and afterwards in action). All around evenly thick to its own detriment.
 
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Sentinel

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An article that anyone can agree with, yet manages to completely dodge every criticism that's been aimed at him.

Congrats Sawyer. You should get a career in politics.
 

BilboBaggins

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240zqef.png
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
An article that anyone can agree with, yet manages to completely dodge every criticism that's been aimed at him.

Perhaps that's because like me, he doesn't perceive many of those criticisms as relevant to "balance". For example, the magic missile spell in AD&D circumvents AC and always hits, making it a unique tool in certain situations (like disrupting spellcasters). PoE's Minoletta's Minor Missiles spell doesn't do that - it's a standard pew-pew ranged spell that attacks Deflection. Some people on Sawyer's favorite forum, Something Awful, have complained about that.

Is that really a "balance" issue? Certainly not in the sense discussed in this article, which is focused on tuning numbers and "nerfing". I'd argue that it's really about the game having a more streamlined design, which is a distinct thing from "balance".

BTW, the Missiles in PoE2 will work like in AD&D.
 
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Ezeekiel

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He does have a point there. But he doesn't seem to touch the criticism about over-balancing he gets, where his tunings often make everything feel flat and samey since all's finetuned to such lengths that it doesn't feel like much of anything; and to which he himself is probably blind to due to having played with numbers so much (e.g. seeing a big effective difference in math that's more or less irrelevant in all practical ways to a normal eye that doesn't immediately overthink it and calculate what it might mean if it's ten or twentyfold).
The question is what you mean by "flat".

Is it "+15% looks too boring, why can't it be +3 instead"?

Or is it "Why is this all just numbers? I want an ability that gives my character an extra arm that can wield its own weapon while turning 1d4 enemies into chickens."

IMO, the absence of things like the latter is fundamentally a content production issue rather than a balance issue.

I don't want to speak for the other posters, but I took it to mean that various items feel ultimately very similar.

I forget the exact numbers, and maybe this has changed with the updates to POE, but for example a sword might have x damage, y speed/recovery, z interrupt or whatever and do slash and pierce damage (picking whichever is more effective against the targets armor).
Now take some other 1h weapon and it would be balanced so it's basically roughly the same damage output as the sword (almost always), by doing x-25% dmg, but at a speed which offsets this, and the interrupt is shortened by exactly the amount needed to be basically be the same amount of interrupt time over 10 seconds or whatever as the sword (which attacks slower but has longer interrupt) actually has.
The damage type might be only slash for this second weapon, so some armors are more effective against it, but the weapon will likely have some other special thing to somewhat negate that. In the first place damage type is fairly unimportant as you can switch weapons quickly enough before hitting enemy lines, and any other advantage is mostly not that big so it matters little (like the armor negation... Ok, it's mathematically better than the other advantages in most cases, but it's so little esp vs. path of the damned resistances that it doesn't really matter all that much either).

Armor is similar in a way... More armor means less DPS because your recovery becomes slower and slower. The damage resistance theoretically makes up for that, at least against basic enemies (esp. single enemies, not so much groups maybe)...
The spells are different in this regard as many are mostly trash (esp. considering their often limited amount of uses). But like you said in a post below, the fact that you can miss most spells easy doesn't help. People then go low-risk and use whatever does the damage most reliably or bucks the RNG in some way.

Originally accuracy was also just based on class and levelups, not something you could influence with stat increases outside of weapon enchantments and such. That meant that most classes would end up being way too predetermined in terms of what you could actually do with them.

At the end of the day it's all rather... Flat. In one class of items (like 1h weapons, or at least 1h weapons of a certain size) the differences are... Well, it doesn't really matter that much what you use or when (mostly). There's nothing that really feels all that unique about the various weapon types. It's all "pick one, it mostly doesn't matter".
Any exceptions to this were patched out while I was still playing the game. Any strong build was usually nerfed as well usually.


It's this philosophy that reminds me a bit of Dragon Age 2 or various MMO's and such...
"Ok, you can fight with a greatsword, twin daggers, or a bow. The greatsword is slow and high damage, the daggers very fast and low damage and the bow medium damage and slow speed, but shoots at distance". I.e. it all works out more or less the same.


If the weapons and armors in POE had gotten a more realism-based treatment (in terms of what they are used for, what movesets they have, what special attacks and so on, how well they penetrate various armors, point control as +acc etc for weapons, renaissance based full or three quarters plate armors being largely arquebus, crossbow and bow proof) I think this would have made the game much more interesting. Daggers should not be primaries for example, but secondary/tertiary weapons for when people are grappling or something, or when you are in social setting sout of armor... Halberds and such should be primaries against larger beasts, and to hook and make plate armored guys (and others) fall to expose weak spots or bind their weapon arm temporarily. It'd require Sawyer to not just talk about history though, but actually think about how to make it matter in terms of mechanics.
You could add however much complexity you want, and it would likely not feel flat like Sawyer's systems. Your landsknecht doppelsöldner greatswordsman type in full 1600's plate could charge through enemy ranged attacks and bind pikes with his weapon, while your own pike guys come in right behind to attack the enemy line... Halberdiers could try to counter greatswordsmen. Guys in full plate could have the downside of overheating with too much fighting if your own guys can't help them take out the enemy in time. They'd have to raise their visor (or lower their buffe) or open the little window in the most advanced close helmets to breathe, making them vulnerable to pikes and ranged attacks etc.
Greatswords wouldn't be great vs. enemy plate armored dudes, lacking easy ways to hook or attack enemy weakspots.
Or it could be simpler, whatever.
A dragon could be kept at bay somewhat with pikes/halberds, his breath/spells by wizards counterspells or paladin/priest auras, while 1-2 flank it to harm it's legs and tail to immobilize it or whatnot, or cast acid spells at it, or while some militiamen from the nearby town who you talked into helping you or who gave you the quest to kill the thing set up a ballista to kill the dragon with while it's distracted by you and not dodging.
This would make large monster fights make more sense... Rather than your tanks running in and just... Taking hit after hit from a dragon while everyone else just slowly reduces it's bloated HP pool.

Point is there is a lot that's possible to help make the combat feel new and interesting, make players find new tactics compared to the stuff you had in the past. You can have weapons feel very different from each other, each having multiple specific roles it's good at while being somewhat awkward or even bad in other situations instead of everything being too similar and samey.
 

Hell March

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An article that anyone can agree with, yet manages to completely dodge every criticism that's been aimed at him.

Congrats Sawyer. You should get a career in politics.

Pretty much this. There's nothing disagreeable in his article, but it doesn't apply to what he does or has done in the past. He doesn't practice what he preaches, retuning is the only thing he does. Most notably, he pats himself on the back for nerfing sniper rifles in NV--only a few months before the Old World Blues DLC would introduce Christine's Sniper Rifle, a silenced sniper rifle with 2.5X crit and 1.5 attacks per second--the introduction of a weapon that literally does exactly the thing he was claiming to prevent. It's an any-range "I-win" button. Likewise I don't think anything was ever done about the summoning trinkets in PoE that completely trivialize the entire game.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Figurine summons used to stay for the entire battle, they were changed to lasting only twenty seconds
 

vonAchdorf

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French and Italian bikes from these times are great, it's not their fault, that hipsters discovered culturally appropriated them.
 

Prime Junta

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French and Italian bikes from these times are great, it's not their fault, that hipsters discovered culturally appropriated them.

Yeah but he's right about the measures. Fucking seatpost is like .1 mm different from anyone else's.
 

santino27

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
As much as I like Bloodlines, the combat was by far the worst part of it, and TES combat (first person fantasy) sucks too.
 

FreeKaner

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I would definitely prefer the game to be in more modern setting with guns if it's going to be first person. It's just much more easier to do and satisfying as well.

Even bloodlines which has trash combat all around, even with unofficial patch, is okay with some of the later guns. It's melee is disaster though but it was experimental at the time, I doubt it would be similarly trash now that making fantasy with melee weapons became more common.
 

Mozg

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Have there been any good games that were primarily FP but also had a secondary over the shoulder or something mode that let them have enough "body awareness" to do melee well? Sort of the opposite of third person shooters that go into FP when you aim down sights. Live in FP, vacation in TP.
 

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